Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Combat advice

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Combat advice

    Hello. I'm pretty new to Exalted, and I've been playing in a local store game. I've seen a bunch of folks talking about how OP Single Point into the Void is, but I have to admit, I'm not sure if either I'm just not doing it right/am not to that point yet or what.

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IOE...ew?usp=sharing

    This is me currently. Could someone explain either A) What charms I should be taking in order to maximize effectiveness or B) What charms I should use and when?

  • #2
    Hmm. Perhaps I'm confused. I don't see any charms from Single Point Shining into the Void Style on your sheet. Are you asking how to use SPSitV Style? Are you asking how to use your existing Melee charms more effectively? Are you wanting to know how to counter SPSitV Style specifically?

    Comment


    • #3
      So I note you don't have Brawl 1. Using any other houserules?

      I also note you have a truckload of Melee Charms. You know you can't use (most of) them with Single Point, right? Are you sure you wouldn't rather unlock Evocations?

      So Single Point. Ok.

      Gathering Light Concentration is basically a cap breaker. You use it when having trouble hitting (such as before a Decisive). As an Onslaught negator, it's terrible: just use Dipping Swallow Defence. It's a Charm for when your enemy has poor offence but good defence.

      Shining Starfall Execution is an amazing finishing Charm. Build +15i and unleash a killer Decisive. +5 Decisive damage with double 10s is very powerful.

      And that's it for Essence 1. At Essence 2 you get to make twice as many attacks each round. I... I don't think you need me to explain why that's good... but it's good. It's really good. You want to activate Form as soon as possible -- ideally Reflexively. You want the sword to attack each round, I wouldn't waste too many motes supplimenting these attacks and just take it as free Onslaught and cheap Decisives (especially if you can kick off Shining Starfall on the sword).

      And that's it. All the other Charms add nice effects, worth spending Solar XP on (and using if you have the motes) but nothing to write home about until you get to Blinding Nova Flare which is the best finishing move in the game (and FREE).

      Single Point is OP because you're doubling the amount of attacks you make in a round.

      [Edit]

      You also might want to buy some Integrity/Socailize. Maybe take Wits and Resistance to 5. Buy some more Ox-bodies (have you seen the damage from a Medium height fall). Whatever. I'm not your mother.
      Last edited by JohnDoe244; 09-04-2019, 05:11 PM.


      Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post

        Single Point is OP because you're doubling the amount of attacks you make in a round.
        I really wish this meme would die.

        Single Point has utter garbage for defense and you are near totally reliant on your soak. The entire style relies on momenteum to either kill the opponent on the first round or in one hit. If you cannot throw up the form reflexively (Which remember, you only have one shot at!) then it's like fighting without an arm. Single Point's duel tracks are also one of your main methods of defense by having sheer assloads of initiative.

        No, Single Point is broken because of Fatal Stroke Flash, which can double your effective damage, doubled again by TAP. Attacking a crashed opponent with this is usually an instant death sentence.


        Read my shit at my homebrew topic, 2.5e and 3e material!
        Play Alchemical's in 3e now, you're welcome.

        Comment


        • #5
          Wait, the wording on Single Point form is kind of weird, it's not when you win join battle but when you get the highest starting initiative. Does that mean you need to beat your allies as well or has that been clairified?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
            Hmm. Perhaps I'm confused. I don't see any charms from Single Point Shining into the Void Style on your sheet. Are you asking how to use SPSitV Style? Are you asking how to use your existing Melee charms more effectively? Are you wanting to know how to counter SPSitV Style specifically?
            Uh, kinda of. I just have seen a bunch of people talking about how it's the OP martial art and I wanted to ask what made it OP. I know I haven't actually gotten the charms from it yet, we pretty much just started a few weeks ago, and this is my first character in Exalted, so it's probably all over the place.

            Okay, I didn't realize I had to have any points in Brawl to take Martial Arts. I thought that since I was using a Melee-based martial art, I just had to take the Martial Arts merit, then buy the martial art as an alternative to brawl. I used the Excel character sheet I found on this forum, and it seemed to be okay with it, so that's the only rule validation applied. Related: Do I have to take the Martial Arts merit separately for each martial art? Or can I just start investing in say, White Reaper or some melee art as soon as I find a teacher?

            JohnDoe: Why can I not use most of them with SpiV?

            Yeah, I realized the whole Integrity is in my build when I only narrowly avoided a mind controlling curse by luck. I was fighting some crazed dragonblood in a temple, and our Twilight got real lucky with a bow shot and killed him... transferring the curse that drove him insane over to his killer. The ST looked very dissapointed his berserker curse went to the mild mannered Twilight with Integrity charms and not the Circle's only Dawn with nil Integrity.

            More Ox Body is on my to-get list. I wasn't planning on doing a lot of falling, but I planned to get the Athletics charms that mitigate falls and eventually flying.

            Also, the Daiklave on my sheet isn't an actual Daiklave, it's just the only way I could figure out how to represent Glorious Solar Blade on the sheet, so I don't think I can get any evocations yet?

            DrLoveMOnkey: I mean, RAW, it's the highest, period, so I suspect our Twilight with his stupid Stealth-join-battle roll is going to prevent me from ever getting the reflexive.
            Last edited by Jancarius; 09-06-2019, 01:37 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Single point style: So here is a breakdown of how/why it is frequently considered OP:
              Shining Starfall Execution: Most significant attacks I have seen in 6+ campaigns of EX3 have 15+ initiative in them, not all but 80%+ in my experience, so the +5 to decisive damage will trigger. +5 Decisive damage is quite good and the double 10s will usually add +2 or more, for a total of +7 Decisive damage...for an essence 1 charm.
              Single point Form: 2 actions/turn is really, really good. The sneaky-amazing part of this charm is actually that the user, not the attacker gets to decide where the withering damage goes. Now in actual play you will find that people usually target either really low init opponents to get the crash bonus OR really high init opponents to reduce the damage their next decisive attack will deal, and an attacker can’t do that here, because you can shunt the withering damage onto the lower of your two initiative pools preserving the higher total for your own attack.
              Fatal Stroke Flash: The cost and prerequisites of this charm are laughably low for such an absurdly powerful effect. Remember that the majority of decisive attacks are going to be happening at 15+ Initiative and that you can almost certainly make sure that goes off due to your sword’s ability to soak up the withing damage instead of you. Now you wait until the enemy is crashed and this doubles your damage, sure there is a downside to missing, but with the low cost on this charm you can spring for a full excellency and you get double 9s to boot. The real kicker...nothing says you can’t also use thunderbolt attack prana.
              Liquid Steel Flow: Scene long withering damage boosts are amazing. That alone isn’t broken, but you can get twice the use out of it with your extra attack sword-actions, keeping you at higher initiative so all your effects that trigger against opponents with lower initiative are even easier to deal with.
              All of that is Really, Really good, and it takes only 5 charm purchases made with Solar XP (so it doesn’t eat into your normal charm progression) And I’ve only gone over the essence 1 and 2 charms that were amazing.
              Now Single Point does have weaknesses, if you get crashed despite the sword you are kinda screwed, the style doesn’t have decent defensive charms...but you can buy the parry tree for melee (with your regular XP) which is one of the best defensive suites in the game.
              Single Point style isn’t unstoppable, but it is a lot more powerful than anything else that has a similar cost and essence requirements. In one game I was running the player who was playing an eclipse had this style and was routinely the MVP of combats without spending a single point of regular XP on it. He decided to switch his build around to melee because while he like the imagery and thematics of the style he hadn’t actually meant to drastically out-class the two dawn castes int he party. With the Melee Tree he was about on par by the time he had bought 12+ charms and essence 4, which is a more reasonable investment cost for such an offence in my opinion.

              Comment


              • #8
                Also as to use of melee charms & Single Point: You can’t use charms of different abilities on the same action unless they clearly state so. Any individual attack must use Single Point charms OR Melee charms. If you go this route I recommend the parry charms to balance out the weaknesses of SPS
                Re: Integrity: Once you get to essence 3 integrity 5, you have access to one of the better abilities in the game: Spirit-Tempering Practice in play this is frequently effectively infinite free willpower. The prerequisite of Spirit-Maintaining Maneuver is one of the better charms for resisting mind control to boot.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Jancarius View Post
                  Related: Do I have to take the Martial Arts merit separately for each martial art? Or can I just start investing in say, White Reaper or some melee art as soon as I find a teacher?
                  You just need to buy it once. Remember you can't use White Reaper with a sword.

                  JohnDoe: Why can I not use most of them with SpiV?
                  Page 426: you can't combine Melee and Martial Arts Charms on the same roll.

                  Now nothing stops you attacking with Single Point and defending with Melee. But you can't use your Glorious Solar Saber (a Daiklave) with Single Point (which needs a slashing sword or a Reaper Daiklave). You can't use Excellent Strike, Fire and Stones Strike, or Iron Whirlwind Attack with Single Point. You can't combine One Weapon, Two Blows or Peony Blossom Technique with Single Point Charms, no combining Dipping Swallow Defence with Gathering Light Concentration (whether you can combine Bulwark Stance or Fivefold Bulwark Stance with Gathering Light Concentration is going to be an ST call, but I say "no").

                  Also, the Daiklave on my sheet isn't an actual Daiklave, it's just the only way I could figure out how to represent Glorious Solar Blade on the sheet, so I don't think I can get any evocations yet?
                  You can with a repurchase. Re-reading, you possibly have to repurchase for each Evocation... Ok, my bad.

                  ****

                  On Fatal Stroke Flash: yeah, it's a really good Charm. But if you're launching a Decisive (especially backed by TAP and/or Shining Starfall Execution) against a Crashed foe, who you're not going to miss... then that foe is dead anyway whether you're using Fatal Stroke Flash or not. If you've battled a foe into Crash, and built up enough Initiative for a good Decisive AND you have Willpower to spend AND you're confident you're not going to miss, then Fatal Stroke Flash is amazing. I'd rather use a big combo (something like Wind Rider Swiftness, Shining Starfall Execution and Thunderbolt Attack Prana) to kill a target from Medium range who has a HIGHER Initative than me. But sure, Fatal Stroke Flash is a good Charm, worth picking up and worth using if you can afford it. It's not as good as being able to attack twice a round (which is how you're getting into position to Crash these people -- all the Charms after the Form are about making the Form more effective, but the Form remains your bread and butter).

                  Single Point Form is draining enemy motes on defences, it's draining enemy Initative, it's giving you low risk Decisives, it's giving you ablative Initative, it's doubling your foe's Onslaught. It's amazing. Blinding Nova Flare is unblockable, undodgeable and free.

                  Fatal Stroke Flash is great if you've just Crashed a foe with your attack and want to boost the damage on your sword's Decisive. It's great if you're Nova-ing so you can't miss a dangerous foe.

                  Fatal Stroke Flash is the third best charm in Single Point but the top two absolutely blow it out of the water, no contest.

                  Originally posted by satoshi View Post
                  Single point Form: 2 actions/turn is really, really good. The sneaky-amazing part of this charm is actually that the user, not the attacker gets to decide where the withering damage goes. Now in actual play you will find that people usually target either really low init opponents to get the crash bonus OR really high init opponents to reduce the damage their next decisive attack will deal, and an attacker can’t do that here, because you can shunt the withering damage onto the lower of your two initiative pools preserving the higher total for your own attack.
                  Attacker decides whether to hit you or the sword. So actually you're giving them more options and perhaps an easy Crash.

                  Originally posted by Sandact6 View Post
                  Single Point has utter garbage for defense and you are near totally reliant on your soak.
                  If only Dipping Swallow Defence had no prerequisites, Single Point allowed Medium armor so you could use ISoB and was usable with a Medium weapon for +1 static, non-charm Parry!

                  If only it gave you two Initative tracks!

                  If only it had an Onslaught negator as its very first charm!
                  The entire style relies on momenteum to either kill the opponent on the first round or in one hit.
                  Or launch low risk Decisives on your sword, backed by the Decisive damage boosters in the style, to push oppenents into wound penalties. Whilst doubling the Onslaught/Clash penalties you can deal out in a round, and reflecting your own Onslaught onto foes.

                  In a Style with a Withering damage booster and an unblockable, undodgeable attack? Come on bro. Wut?

                  If you cannot throw up the form reflexively (Which remember, you only have one shot at!) then it's like fighting without an arm.
                  Spend one turn putting the Form up dude.

                  And you're not even spending your whole turn as the sword gets to attack straight away. Spend one turn making the same number of attacks as everyone else before doubling your attacks thereafter. That's not like fighting without an arm. (Unless you mean "Reaver Daiklaves are single handed weapons not usually used in pairs, so if you lose an arm your combat effectiveness isn't actually impaired in any way.")
                  Last edited by JohnDoe244; 09-06-2019, 09:50 AM.


                  Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post

                    If only Dipping Swallow Defence had no prerequisites, Single Point allowed Medium armor so you could use ISoB and was usable with a Medium weapon for +1 static, non-charm Parry!
                    1) Define ISoB

                    2) Are you seriously comparing Gathering Light Concentration to Dipping Swallow? Because that's not how it remotely works. Reread the charm, it doesn't completely refresh your defense; it only dumps the point of onslaught you'd gain from an attack IF successfully parry the attack in the first place. It helps with defense but it's primary purpose is to help be offensive (opponent being easier to hit). It is also an expensive option to use. You CAN use it to dump your onslaught onto others via the Mastery, but if you're in a position to use that the most effectively then you have bigger problems or are using Solar Melee defense or a Lunar who is somehow cheating. Which leads into...

                    Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                    If only it gave you two Initative tracks!
                    If your opponent crashes either one of them kiss them goodbye. Your sword initiative track is very vulnerable, where either you spend a shitton of motes to boost the JB roll for it or pray for some luck (and if your opponent has any sense, they will target the sword initiative track). You can't use awareness charms for helping the sword JB (As it uses MA, not awareness) so your only help is gonna be in Solar Thrown or Solar Archery.

                    Again, I'll restate: Your defense is piss poor. You don't have the best defensive charm in the world so if your opponent attempts to hit you as hard as they can on your first turn? You better hope that armour is hauling your ass as that's all you'll get.

                    Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                    If only it had an Onslaught negator as its very first charm!
                    Debunked.

                    Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                    Or launch low risk Decisives on your sword, backed by the Decisive damage boosters in the style, to push oppenents into wound penalties. Whilst doubling the Onslaught/Clash penalties you can deal out in a round, and reflecting your own Onslaught onto foes.
                    If you're playing single point then you're either making decisive's with your personal initiaitve score and banking the sword because, again, the risk involved of paralyzing your form. Plus with the initiative losses that come with single point charms, you want to be damn sure that the attack hits. Ideally you want to KO the opponent in a single hit. Other styles can do good with chipping, but Single point excels at burst damage and it wants to KO in one hit. If you fail your decisive then chances are you're losing a sizable chunk of initiaitve.

                    Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                    In a Style with a Withering damage booster and an unblockable, undodgeable attack? Come on bro. Wut?
                    An un-x-able decisive, which requires a gambit to pull of and actually makes sense with and really helps the style.

                    Liquid Steel Flow is potent, I will give you that. Though usually my experiences in games quickly evolves into enemies having stupid amounts of soak (even with official enemies released) which leads to me really wishing soak had a cap point. Your milage may vary.


                    Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                    Spend one turn putting the Form up dude.

                    And you're not even spending your whole turn as the sword gets to attack straight away. Spend one turn making the same number of attacks as everyone else before doubling your attacks thereafter. That's not like fighting without an arm. (Unless you mean "Reaver Daiklaves are single handed weapons not usually used in pairs, so if you lose an arm your combat effectiveness isn't actually impaired in any way.")
                    Single Point is two things:

                    1) A style for duelists
                    2) A style based on momenteum. You want to start off strong or kill the opponent on the first hit.

                    I have played Single Point for years on many characters to test out the style and various homebrew. Nigh universally every time I didn't get a chance to fire my form off in the first tick I was often kicked in the balls so hard that it made combat actually a little tricky. Go ahead, spend a turn to throw up your form. Pray to god you hit because if you don't then you're looking at an enemy that can likely obtain possibly two initiative crash bonuses from you. If you are in this position then you really lean on your sole damage adder to drag your ass out of the fire as nearly all your shit is decisive.

                    I'll repeat, a crashed single point fighter is like fighting with one arm.

                    I'll give you some points for Shining Starfall Execution being very potent for an early charm and that it could be toned down possibly a little, but have you played a character with Single Point style, just for curiousity?


                    Read my shit at my homebrew topic, 2.5e and 3e material!
                    Play Alchemical's in 3e now, you're welcome.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Sandact6 View Post
                      If your opponent crashes either one of them kiss them goodbye. Your sword initiative track is very vulnerable, where either you spend a shitton of motes to boost the JB roll for it or pray for some luck (and if your opponent has any sense, they will target the sword initiative track).
                      This was my experience when I ran an NPC with Single Point. I mean, I thought it was reasonably strong, he did get a couple of extra attacks, but his form didn't last that long.
                      It did seem to me, when I tried it, that it was a big damage style without brilliant defence. Probably best used for attack while using Melee for defence.


                      I run... Lunars: The Apocalypse! Exalted 3rd edition. Fimbulwinter is upon the world as an Ice Age begins, and only six young Lunar heroes have a chance of saving humanity.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Sandact6 View Post
                        1) Define ISoB
                        Invulnerable Skin of Bronze.

                        2) Are you seriously comparing Gathering Light Concentration to Dipping Swallow?
                        No, I'm saying it's trivial for a Solar to take Dipping Swallow Defence to shore up the weakness of Single Point. Utterly trivial.

                        If your opponent crashes either one of them kiss them goodbye. Your sword initiative track is very vulnerable, where either you spend a shitton of motes to boost the JB roll for it or pray for some luck (and if your opponent has any sense, they will target the sword initiative track). You can't use awareness charms for helping the sword JB (As it uses MA, not awareness) so your only help is gonna be in Solar Thrown or Solar Archery.
                        You can Excellency if you think the sword needs the extra i. They still have to hit you to Wither the sword, and Crashing the sword doesn't Crash you. You can Shift, and the sword resets to Base.

                        Getting Crashed is bad. Your sword getting Crashed means you're not Crashed.

                        If you know multiple MAs, and don't think you can get your sword back in the fight, just switch Forms.

                        Again, I'll restate: Your defense is piss poor. You don't have the best defensive charm in the world so if your opponent attempts to hit you as hard as they can on your first turn? You better hope that armour is hauling your ass as that's all you'll get.
                        What are you fighting?

                        You're looking at a resting Parry of 7. That's brilliant. Plus Excellency for 12. Plus Onslaught negator. If you dipped Melee then it's even better.

                        What style has a "good" defence?

                        Debunked.
                        The native style is pretty poor, yes. Agreed. Said that in my first post. But it has defensive charms.

                        If you're playing single point then you're either making decisive's with your personal initiaitve score and banking the sword because, again, the risk involved of paralyzing your form.
                        Trading your Form for a turn of invulnerablity as you're not attacked, wound penalties on your foe and not getting Crashed yourself is a pretty good trade.

                        I'll repeat, a crashed single point fighter is like fighting with one arm.
                        A Crashed any-style fighter is like fighting with one arm.

                        I'll give you some points for Shining Starfall Execution being very potent for an early charm and that it could be toned down possibly a little, but have you played a character with Single Point style, just for curiousity?
                        Nope.
                        Last edited by JohnDoe244; 09-07-2019, 05:31 AM.


                        Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                          No, I'm saying it's trivial for a Solar to take Dipping Swallow Defence to shore up the weakness of Single Point. Utterly trivial.
                          So you'e saying to buy Melee in order to use to help parry? Well I got news for you: If you want to use that defense then only your melee calculated defense counts, not your single point defense. If you're getting melee up to 5 with a speciality just for the maximum possible defense bonus and Dipping Swallow/Bulwark Stance, why bother with Single Point at all? I played a Katana Solar with Melee over Single Point just fine, and while the means are different the end result still felt like me playing a weeaboo sword using Solar.

                          The one point where I'd consider that universally true at the moment are Lunars, to which I had to make a very sizable answer for in response.

                          Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                          You can Excellency if you think the sword needs the extra i. They still have to hit you to Wither the sword, and Crashing the sword doesn't Crash you. You can Shift, and the sword resets to Base.
                          Using an excellency for defense does work. It's good in 1v1 circumstances, but if you're getting mobbed then it's hardly the best response (And if you're getting mobbed by multiple dice adding enemies you might want to question the life choices that landed you in such a position).

                          Also shifting with your blade is a mastery only perk. If you're at the Celestial power limit then really hope it doesn't happen as your oppotunity would get flushed down the toilet. Such a thing is strong for mastery users, but considering the crap Solar Melee pulls off I don't consider too outside the realm of possibility.


                          Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                          Getting Crashed is bad. Your sword getting Crashed means you're not Crashed.
                          It's worse. Getting crashed normally doesn't stop you from attacking. Even in the mastery form the form is essentinally sealed off, providing you no benefit and only downsides (Locking you into one weapon, eating 10m).


                          Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                          If you know multiple MAs, and don't think you can get your sword back in the fight, just switch Forms.
                          Here's the thing: Most people don't. Most people go into MA's either for getting a self contained and powerful fighting style on the cheap (Pound for pound, MA charms are usually a wee bit stronger than native ones) or doing it as a stylistic choice. Typically they don't want to learn another MA because either (A) It's their character concept to use that one or (B) It's expensive as shit to learn a completely different set of charms let alone raise another ability up to 5.


                          Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                          What are you fighting?

                          You're looking at a resting Parry of 7. That's brilliant. Plus Excellency for 12. Plus Onslaught negator. If you dipped Melee then it's even better.
                          I find there are two types of opponents in Exalted:

                          1) Enemies that are there to essentially make the PC's look good
                          2) Enemies that require a significant investment of resources in order to fight (Elemental Dragons, Second Circle Demons, combat capable Dragonblooded).

                          #2 is what I'm usually worried about. Such things often have accuracy pools or the dice adders to reliably hit the stylist with 50/50 odds if they have 13-14 dice in their primary attack pool (And don't say stunting because unless you pull off a level 2 stunt then enemies can also benefit from stunting, putting you back where you started). In this case you really better damn hope that your excellency works here, as raw math is all you're getting. If they have an unblockable then your only choice is to clash and pray to god they don't have dice tricks.

                          If you have multiple opponents then your odds go down dramatically. Single Point is designed to crush others in 1v1 fights, it's performance drops sharply outside of that area.

                          If your advice is to use Melee charms, see my earlier point about defense. Additionally if you're at that stage: Why bother using Single Point? You could get *far* more milage out of picking up an artifact weapon with offensive evocations. Not only that, but you could shore up your core combat suite with a few extra tricks (Excellent Strike, OWTB, and Dipping Swallow alone grant milage and basic competency like you'd never believe). You lose out on the form and the insanity that is Fatal Stroke Flash, but you gain far more in return.

                          Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                          What style has a "good" defence?
                          White Reaper has disgustingly good defense and soak. Snake likewise has amazing capabilities and can use dodge.


                          Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                          The native style is pretty poor, yes. Agreed. Said that in my first post. But it has defensive charms.
                          See previous responses in post.

                          Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                          Trading your Form for a turn of invulnerablity as you're not attacked, wound penalties on your foe and not getting Crashed yourself is a pretty good trade.
                          Stop getting tunnel vision and look at my entire post.

                          Single point relies on offensive momenteum, that is to start offensive and remain on the offensive throughout the fight. If your sword is crashed than this ability is significantly impeded. Worse is that you granted an opponent the crash bonus. Unless your opponent has almost no soak you probably won't crash him. More than likely he'll be in the area where he'll have enough Initiative to make a killing blow (Or disarm you, which is the bane of all Unarmed-No styles).

                          Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                          A Crashed any-style fighter is like fighting with one arm.
                          Only if you have lots perilous or decisive-only charms. Read my previous posts about offensive momenteum.

                          Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                          Nope.
                          And this where I feel the crux of things lie.

                          Single Point seems powerful on paper, and I won't deny that even putting aside my baises it would easily be one of the top tier MA's in the game as it has some of the highest burst damage in the game (EX: Damage that can be dealt out on a single turn). Single Point shines brightly in its chosen area, but rapidly falls out of favor outside it. Most people who I talked to who play it tend to agree on that.


                          Read my shit at my homebrew topic, 2.5e and 3e material!
                          Play Alchemical's in 3e now, you're welcome.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Sandact6 View Post
                            So you'e saying to buy Melee in order to use to help parry? Well I got news for you: If you want to use that defense then only your melee calculated defense counts, not your single point defense. If you're getting melee up to 5 with a speciality just for the maximum possible defense bonus and Dipping Swallow/Bulwark Stance, why bother with Single Point at all?
                            Because you can pick up amazing offensive charms like attacking twice every round or doubling your Decisive damage with Solar XP. That's what this thread is about. Look at OPs character sheet. They have Melee 5. They have Single Point 5.

                            Using an excellency for defense does work. It's good in 1v1 circumstances, but if you're getting mobbed then it's hardly the best response
                            Let me stop you there.

                            An Excellency is an expensive way of not getting Crashed or avoiding a Decisive.

                            If you're getting mobbed by things which can hit Parry 7, it's time to "nope" out of there.

                            But if my sword joins battle on, what, 8i? It should be relatively easy for me to gauge whether it can take a hit or not.

                            Also shifting with your blade is a mastery only perk.
                            Good thing we're explicitly talking about a Solar in this thread. If you want to argue about its use for Deebs my thoughts are here. (I think Deebs are better served by Evocations and their Native Melee. I have no specific thoughts on Lunars.)

                            It's worse. Getting crashed normally doesn't stop you from attacking.
                            Solar Melee Crashed: 1 attack per round, can't benefit from Hardness, can't use Perilous Charms
                            Single Point Sword Crashed: 1 attack per round. (CAN use Hardness and Perilous.)

                            Yeah. Way worse. Totally.

                            Enemies that require a significant investment of resources in order to fight (Elemental Dragons, Second Circle Demons, combat capable Dragonblooded).

                            #2 is what I'm usually worried about. Such things often have accuracy pools or the dice adders to reliably hit the stylist with 50/50 odds if they have 13-14 dice in their primary attack pool (And don't say stunting because unless you pull off a level 2 stunt then enemies can also benefit from stunting, putting you back where you started). In this case you really better damn hope that your excellency works here, as raw math is all you're getting. If they have an unblockable then your only choice is to clash and pray to god they don't have dice tricks.
                            So the most dangerous foes have 50:50 odds of knocking you out of Form, and to do this they have to leave your primary Initative track untouched and/or forgoe launching a Decisive against you?

                            Sounds horrible.

                            If you have multiple opponents then your odds go down dramatically.
                            Only if they can hit you.

                            Even if they do hit the sword, if there's multiple opponents on the field, chances are you can Shift them.

                            You could get *far* more milage out of picking up an artifact weapon with offensive evocations.
                            See my first post in this thread where I advocate exactly that.

                            But generally, an artifact sword is only going to have a couple of Essence 1 Evocations. Might as well get a couple of Martial Arts Charms on the slog upto Essence 2. Then once you have Essence 2, there's a lot of Solar XP between 2 and 3 -- are you sure you don't want to make two attacks each round and double your Decisive damage? (Or you can spend that Solar XP buying up Craft Woodworking and Craft Carpentry and spend your down-time explaining the difference. I'd rather have two attacks.)

                            Not only that, but you could shore up your core combat suite with a few extra tricks (Excellent Strike, OWTB, and Dipping Swallow alone grant milage and basic competency like you'd never believe).
                            OP has these Charms. He needs Ox-body Technique and an Integrity Excellency.
                            You lose out on the form and the insanity that is Fatal Stroke Flash, but you gain far more in return.
                            "To commemorate your arrival, I propose a reverent ceremony at dawn."

                            White Reaper has disgustingly good defense and soak. Snake likewise has amazing capabilities and can use dodge.
                            Yeah, I guess I've got to give you that one. Revolving Cresent Defence is insane.

                            Stop getting tunnel vision and look at my entire post.

                            Single point relies on offensive momenteum, that is to start offensive and remain on the offensive throughout the fight. If your sword is crashed than this ability is significantly impeded.
                            Sorry. Not seeing it. Perhaps the way you play.

                            I say, spending 10m to launch a Decisive alpha strike that doesn't reset me to Base is a good use of motes. I would happily put up Single Point Form and immediately launch a Decisive attack and if they Crash the sword, so what? Enjoy trying to hit Parry 7 with your (14-2) dicepool.

                            But if you really want to avoid that Crash bonus then drop your Commitment and end the Charm.

                            Your account of significantly impeded reads to me as the same as everyone else. (There's a line about privilege and equality that I just can't bring myself to quote directly.)

                            Worse is that you granted an opponent the crash bonus.
                            50% of the time. If it's a boss fight. And I don't have Excellency motes to blow.
                            Unless your opponent has almost no soak you probably won't crash him.
                            Is the fight going to take longer than three rounds?
                            More than likely he'll be in the area where he'll have enough Initiative to make a killing blow (Or disarm you, which is the bane of all Unarmed-No styles).
                            He'll be 5i higher than if he attacked me directly. And I'll be ~8i higher than if he attacked me directly (which, I'll grant you, is probably only breaking even if I gave up my turn to enter Form but it's pretty good if I didn't start my turn in Short range of the foe or if I got the Form off Reflexively).

                            Hopefully, I picked up Summoning the Loyal Steel so I could walk around with my Daiklave and not face shouts of "Anathema" everywhere I went. In which case, I use Call the Blade Reflexively if Disarmed (for 1m). Can't do much against being killed (well, I guess I could take a Crippling injury), but if I survive the Decisive then a Shift just got a whole lot more likely.

                            I'm happy to throw the bones on that.

                            Only if you have lots perilous or decisive-only charms. Read my previous posts about offensive momenteum.
                            I forgot Snake Style existed in my last post, so no need to feel bad about this, but you do realize there's six Decisive-only Charms in Single Point Shining Into the Void Style alone, right?

                            To say nothing of buying up Resistance Charms to shore up your defences.

                            And this where I feel the crux of things lie.

                            Single Point seems powerful on paper, and I won't deny that even putting aside my baises it would easily be one of the top tier MA's in the game as it has some of the highest burst damage in the game (EX: Damage that can be dealt out on a single turn). Single Point shines brightly in its chosen area, but rapidly falls out of favor outside it. Most people who I talked to who play it tend to agree on that.
                            I'm not even sure what it is we're debating at this point.

                            OP, an Essence 1 Supernal Melee Dawn, has bought Single Point upto 5 and wants to know: "A) What charms I should be taking in order to maximize effectiveness or B) What charms I should use and when?"

                            I said he should buy Evocations, but failing that:

                            "Gathering Light Concentration is basically a cap breaker. You use it when having trouble hitting (such as before a Decisive). As an Onslaught negator, it's terrible: just use Dipping Swallow Defence. It's a Charm for when your enemy has poor offence but good defence.

                            Shining Starfall Execution is an amazing finishing Charm. Build +15i and unleash a killer Decisive. +5 Decisive damage with double 10s is very powerful.

                            And that's it for Essence 1."

                            If your experience of using Single Point in play is different to my advice, I'd love to learn from you. Please explain how.

                            But it looks like we're arguing over me using the phrase "over-powered" when I should have used "easily one of the top tier MA's in the game". I accept that I'm lazy with my short-hand and that "over-powered" has negative connotations. I take full responsibility for any miscommunication and I apologise.

                            Unless you're saying "don't use the Form Charm: it's a trap option"*, then I'm pretty sure we agree that Single Point is "easily one of the top tier MA's in the game" -- specifically because of what I call "cheap Decisives" and what you call "highest burst damage in the game".

                            *(If you do think the Form is a trap and folks shouldn't use it... I'm going to need you to walk me through that real slow, with actual examples and an explanation more in depth than "momentum". Because I really don't see it and think you must be doing it wrong.)
                            Last edited by JohnDoe244; 09-07-2019, 06:51 PM.


                            Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

                            Comment

                            Working...
                            X