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  • What's Changed Between Editions?

    It's been a LOOONG time since I've even looked at Exalted, so I'm wondering what's actually changed between 2.5 and 3e. More specifically, what new design space is present in the Solar charm trees? I've seen a couple cross-ability charms, but what else? Also, what, if any, design space has been lost? Can a Dawn of sufficient puissance still blow up a mountain with their sword or bow? Can an Eclipse still make a whole city disappear? (I think this was a charm at one point. Cast Out Beyond Regard maybe?)

    What new toys did we get and what was given away to Goodwill?

  • #2
    From a mechanical standpoint Solars tend to be less able to be built so that you're invulnerable to anything short of Celestial Incarna like you could do in 2.5, but the charm space has opened up quite a bit. God-King's Shrike lets you proclaim a doom upon an entire kingdom and a week later said doom happens. Speaking of doom, Dual Magnus Prana lets you have Doctor Doom style Doombot clones, that if you ever die are retroactively activated.

    Socialize now lets you have an entire roster of characters in your pocket that you can just become whenever you want. So you can have an entire party all to yourself. You can move so fast that you get anime-style duplicates of yourself, they can hide inside somebody's soul with stealth. In general with the way Martial Arts, Sorcery and Evocations have opened up that makes a lot of stuff possible. A Solar with a blue jade daiklave can freeze opponents in ice and stuff like that.

    The really big wide effects tend to be gone though. Like you can't just cure a city of 100,000 people of plague in an instant, you can't juggle mountains, you can't rip the moon out of the sky smack it like a baseball into the sun and blow them both up or anything like that. Also social interaction got a lot of changes. Solars can, basically, no longer just snap their fingers and mind control people with Presence.


    The design goal was, I think, to take out effects that were so large and sweeping that they just skipped interesting stories with the activation of a single charm, and also making sure that actions had consequences. It was mostly a success. There's some combos out there that can make you invincible, or can basically give you mind control powers, but they seem more like unintentional effects.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by The Free Man View Post
      what's actually changed between 2.5 and 3e.
      Oof, this'll take awhile. Let me get back to you.


      I have approximate knowledge of many things.
      Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
      https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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      • #4
        Originally posted by The Free Man View Post
        What new toys did we get and what was given away to Goodwill?
        In addition to what DrLoveMonkey already said, which is substantially accurate, here's some other stuff that got given out:
        • Most artifacts now come with Evocations, essentially small charm trees that enhance the use of the artifact and make it feel more thematic. This does mean that designing your own artifacts (at least at the 3 dot and higher levels) requires more homebrewing, but there's already a considerable number of examples, from the Core book, the new Arms of the Chosen artifact sourcebook, and in the so-far released Dragonblooded sourcebook and the upcoming Lunars book. Evocations, I feel, are an excellent way to balance artifacts' power, and really give them each a unique feel (something that 2e claimed to want, but never really delivered on, in my opinion).
        • All the Solar Castes now have more Caste abilities to choose from (each gets to pick 5 from a possible list of 8), meaning that it's easier to build more diverse and useful examples of all the Castes (Dawns are no longer restricted to having two or three caste abilities that will be pretty much redundant with their existing ones, for example).
        • All the Abilities have a bunch of Solar charms for each, meaning that if you want to be a dedicated specialist in any given Ability, the core book has you covered. I think every Ability now has the potential to spend all of your starting Charms in it, and still not completely run out.
        • Along the same lines, every Solar now chooses one of their Caste Abilities as Supernal, which allows them to ignore the usual Essence prereqs for charms in that Ability, meaning they can hit the top tier of power in that one area right out of the gate.
        • The new combat engine has some warts, but it's a vast, vast improvement over the old 2e combat system. It's basically eliminated the old issue of all characters being eggshells with rocket launchers, where any hit would splatter you. Ox-Body Technique is actually a useful charm now! And it's actually made many mortal characters into significant threats against Exalts, at least those who aren't totally combat optimized. Gone are the days when a charm to make you more-or-less immune to the finest mortal swordswoman was an Essence 1, Melee 2 or 3 dip purchase. At the same time, while mortals are a threat, they're not absolutely lethal either, meaning a non-combat-optimized character can exist and survive a battle.
        • The map of Creation has been notably expanded, and several areas that were previously rather undetailed have been given major new terrain features. In particular, the Southeast now has a major body of water, the Dreaming Sea, and the Northeast has a major extension of the old White Sea, the Fang Lakes. Also, there's an island continent in the Southwest, the Caul, which is a major battleground between the Realm and the Lunars.
        As for what was "given away", well, there's nothing I personally consider a big loss. But for the sake of presenting a clear picture, here are some things that have gone:
        • The "magitech" aesthetic of a lot of artifacts has been removed or downplayed. Something that is "First Age Artifice" no longer means it requires a bit more maintenance and is something that behaves like 21st Century technology, but with more gold and essence circuitry. Instead, "First Age Artifice" now applies to artifacts that specifically require major infrastructure to create and support, and is generally only applied to artifacts that the designers think will throw off the intended setting feel if they're easily reproduced. Note that, while the designers have dialed back the "magictech" in descriptions, it's perfectly easy to add it back in if you like it. It just doesn't have much mechanical impact.
        • The designers have decided that largely they aren't going to explain a bunch of metaphysical stuff that they don't think needs explaining. "What is an Exaltation", for example, is probably not something that's going to get a writeup, and the details and history of the primordial war is not going to get a bunch of wordcount devoted to it, nor is the First Age.
        • In the same vein, the writers are deliberately trying to give the sense that there's lots of blank spaces on the map for STs to fill in, and attempting to keep a sense of the scale of Creation. Expect fewer regional descriptions to mention locations thousands of miles away as trading partners (looking at you, 2e writeups for the Lap and Gem), and devote more wordcount to describing local neighbors.
        • The devs have also said they're going back to the Yozi descriptions from 1st Edition largely, particularly their descriptions in Games of Divinity. Expect a lot of the 2e characterizations (particularly the Ebon Dragon as "basically petty folklore Satan") to get discarded.

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        • #5
          Oh speaking of artifacts, magic materials and their bonds with exalts have changed a bit. Essentially Exalt types are either neutral, dissonant, or resonant with a magic material. Generally speaking you go with the dominant MM when judging which quality you're dealing with, so if you have say green jade armor with soulsteel inlays its a jade artifact despite the presence of soulsteel.
          Exalts and resonance chart:
          Solars: Resonant all
          Lunars: Resonant Moonsilver; Neutral everything else.
          Sidereals: Resonant Star Metal; Dissonant everything else
          Dragonblood: Resonant Jade; Dissonant Soul Steel; Neutral everything else
          Abyssals: Resonant Soul Steel; Neutral the rest
          Liminals: Neutral Soul Steel; Dissonant all things not listed
          Getimians: See Sids
          Exigents: varies exalt to exalt

          Oh I'm 95% sure Yellow Jade is no longer a thing that exists.

          We also have some more exalt types however not going into that much since not sure how relevant it is to the specific asking of this question.

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          • #6
            You know, I can't do it right now, but it seems to me that the most efficient way to break down the changes and additions would be book by book, chapter by chapter.


            I have approximate knowledge of many things.
            Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
            https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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            • #7
              I'm pretty sure I read a thread somewhere of someone reading exalted 3e chapter by chapter and comparing to 1e and 2e but I don't remember where I read it

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              • #8
                "Can a Dawn of sufficient puissance still blow up a mountain with their sword or bow?"
                No. How were you doing this before?

                A Dawn archer, right off the bat at character creation, can fire her iconic anima out of a bow, slaying an entire army and burning away their souls in the blazing light of the sun.

                A Dawn swordfighter can cut through stone walls and steel gates, duel armies and face down gods and demons. But no mountain destroying effects.

                "Can an Eclipse still make a whole city disappear?"

                Also no. (And again, I don't remember that Charm in 2E.) They can make an entire kingdom run smoothly and become immune to the Wyld, Shadowlands and disease with a single Charm use though.

                ****

                Combat is very different. Initative now acts like ablative armor (a bit like the HP/Wounds dichotomy in the older Fantasy Flight Games/Dungeons the Dragonning), and fluxuates up and down representing the swing of combat. Ox-body Technique and Soak are now really important. (Hardness is still pretty worthless.) Perfect Defences exist but are no longer your go-to: they can only be used a limited number of times. Stunts don't recover motes, but everyone gets 5m every round. Stunts are more powerful. Multiple actions are basically gone outside of rare powerful Charms (Solars get loads of multiple attack options, because Solars). Combat is just generally more interesting and dynamic now.

                Social interaction has changed so you can only be persuaded to do something if it fits with what your character cares about. Solars get a lot of dickery in this, including making people care about them simply by working out what else they care about, exploiting what a character used to care about, changing what the Solar cares about on the fly and bypassing sexual orientation. But Solars still have to work the system, same as everyone else -- no instant mind control because you rolled 30 successes. The social system is much improved.

                Craft is... just terrible now. If you want to build a diaklave, first you have to build a dozen horseshoes -- then actually use those horse shoes in play to advance the story. Then you can build a dozen normal swords, which also have to actually be used in play. Then you can attempt to make a diaklave... if you have purchased at least 4 dots in Craft: Swords (not "Craft: Fire", or "Craft: Blacksmithing", but Craft: Swords), and at least 3 dots in Lore and Occult, then you can start to buy dots in Craft: Artifact (and use the lower of Craft Artifact and Craft Swords on your roll). Crafting a diaklave takes three months, during which time you can't Craft anything else, and need to spend several hours a day working on it (not sped up by Craftsman Needs No Tools). And you do this every time you want to make something. Or repair something.
                Last edited by JohnDoe244; 10-17-2019, 05:25 AM.


                Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                  A Dawn archer, right off the bat at character creation, can fire her iconic anima out of a bow, slaying an entire army and burning away their souls in the blazing light of the sun.

                  A Dawn swordfighter can cut through stone walls and steel gates, duel armies and face down gods and demons. But no mountain destroying effects.

                  Also no. (And again, I don't remember that Charm in 2E.) They can make an entire kingdom run smoothly and become immune to the Wyld, Shadowlands and disease with a single Charm use though.
                  Woah. How did you get this? Especially the immune to disease thing.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                    "Can an Eclipse still make a whole city disappear?"

                    Also no. (And again, I don't remember that Charm in 2E.)
                    It was in DotFA.

                    I think it's fair to say that none of the DotFA stuff has really been brought across.

                    if you have purchased at least 4 dots in Craft: Swords (not "Craft: Fire", or "Craft: Blacksmithing", but Craft: Swords),
                    Craft: Weaponsmithing actually. I personally think that's too restrictive and it should be Blacksmithing, but anyway, that's what it is.

                    Crafting a diaklave takes three months, during which time you can't Craft anything else, and need to spend several hours a day working on it (not sped up by Craftsman Needs No Tools).
                    This is technically true, but I think misleading for the reader, as it's now the charm after Craftsman Needs No Tools that reduces the time taken to make a daiklaive to a few weeks. I made two short daiklaives in a week. And again, there's a charm to let you craft other things at the same time.


                    Originally posted by The Free Man

                    What new toys did we get
                    Evocations have already been mentioned. I had a warstrider that could turn invisible, for example, and my friend's Dawn has soulsteel armour that forces those trying to attack him to bow down before him.

                    But another big one is the way sorcery works. Spells are pretty much the same (except you roll to generate special sorcerous motes, rather than use your own, so essentially it can take longer to cast but is effectively free; the wp costs are lower as well, in a slightly complex way). But countermagic is a little different, and a sorcerer can disrupt spells already in play, turning them against their user.
                    More importantly, all sorcerers get rituals to generate extra sorcerous motes, that represent the way they've learnt sorcery; perhaps they make sacrifices to demons, or burn prayers to a Efreet, or have a channeling artefact, or absorb power from the elements, or have prophetic dreams.

                    Also, there's now a relatively freeform sorcerous rituals system, that lets you spend a bit of XP and a lot of time and rolls to create permanent sorcerous effects. Mutant monsters, magical rivers, cursed forests, flying mountains, etc, etc.


                    I run... Lunars: The Apocalypse! Exalted 3rd edition. Fimbulwinter is upon the world as an Ice Age begins, and only six young Lunar heroes have a chance of saving humanity.

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                    • #11
                      See look, it's all over the place, haphazard and out of order. Does that not strike anybody as bewildering?


                      I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                      Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                      https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Things I haven't seen mentioned yet (I'm sure the more exhaustive incoming posts will touch on these):

                        Martial Arts don't come in multiple tiers, and like Artifact resonance use Keywords on individual Charms to weaken or strengthen them for different types of Exalted.

                        Sorcery was revamped in a bunch of ways. Initiations (how you learned Sorcery) have significant mechanical impact, shaping actions run smoother, and there's a brand new Sorcerous Workings system that adds a freeform element as sorcerers attempt to alter the world around them using occult principles. Thaumaturgy got downplayed a lot (though Exalted that learn Sorcery automatically get Thaumaturgy too).

                        Weapons and Armor were simplified significantly two three basic types (light, medium, heavy), and uses Tags to create differences between them instead of different stats.

                        In general, there's a lot more attention paid to making sure each Ability has a place to shine mechanically. Bureaucracy stands out as the only real loser here (mostly because the one system where it would make the most sense as the primary Ability to rely on is one of the only times Exalted goes, "nah, screw rolling,"). However this is a mixed bag since this can frequently turn into, "we're sailing now, Sail characters do stuff, everyone else twiddle their thumbs."

                        --------------------

                        The new Crafting system is fairly controversial. Even as someone that's fine with the RAW, they're serviceable instead of good (though I don't think it's a big effort to fix that either).

                        The Solar Craft Charms are a hot mess though, and that's grown to be as close to a consensus opinion as you tend to get on the Craft system.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                          See look, it's all over the place, haphazard and out of order. Does that not strike anybody as bewildering?
                          I think DrLoveMonkey and Kelly covered the basics, which is what you should read first, rather than a really, really long description of everything that's changed, which could be overwhelming.

                          Depends on The Free Man.


                          I run... Lunars: The Apocalypse! Exalted 3rd edition. Fimbulwinter is upon the world as an Ice Age begins, and only six young Lunar heroes have a chance of saving humanity.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                            a really, really long description of everything that's changed, which could be overwhelming.
                            Or about six paragraphs, just placed in the proper order.


                            I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                            Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                            https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Mountain-shattering isn't really a thing in native charmsets now, but you could probably manage it with a sufficiently powerful daiklave.

                              Oh, yeah, also those evocations artifacts get now are mostly what determines their dot rating. one dot artifacts no longer exist, two dot artifacts are simple utility items that don't get evocations. 3 dots and up (which all weapons now are) get progressively more powerful and wide-reaching evocation effects (and also can have more evocations total)

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