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Are there any Infernal Charms that you don't expect to return?

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  • Are there any Infernal Charms that you don't expect to return?

    With Infernal Charms becoming Ability-based, do you expect a major shift towards "Infernal Charms are techniques you perform" and away from "Infernal Charms are spiritual organs or mutations you grow"?

    Do you see this changing your favorite Infernal Charms, like Verdant Emptiness Endowment?

    Which Ebon Shadow Dragon Charms do you expect will continue to be associated with him, as opposed to more spiteful and envious Yozi like Szoreny?


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  • #2
    Not only do I expect very few of the current lineup of the Ebon Dragon's Charms to remain with him, I don't even expect them to retain the exact same theme or equivalent mechanics - even allotting for how different 3e is from 2e, I would wager that they would become nigh-unrecognizable in some circumstances, unless the developers want to keep the heavy angle on deception. As for what ends up cut that doesn't end up with Szoreny, I would expect his spite Charms to go over to Malfeas and/or Kimbery, along with the "taint a memory" and "hide evidence of abuse" Charms.

    Cecelyne, however, might change very little, with the primary difference being that her Charms are now Ability-based and might have a slightly different structure (they're already structured in such a way that you could probably just dump them in one Ability or another without much issue). The Whispering Flame, Adorjan, and Kimbery, too, are probably safe as is, taking in a few odds and ends from prior Yozi concepts that didn't work with their GoD writeups.

    Malfeas is likely to be as different from his past version as Ebby is respectively from his own, but being set as a screaming chainsaw cutter who was monopolizing the music and dance themes common to all Yozis - improperly, even, since a lot of their performances are actually quite dangerous or even lethal to be around - means that you can only really go up. He's going to get way more devious, way subtler even when he doesn't strictly need to be, and his green light is also likely to change from an on the nose analog of radiation to something weirder, like how Gervesin's illumination spreads threads of brass through the flesh of day-birds. Still Cronenbergian, perhaps, but in a different direction.

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    • #3
      I think an advantage of putting the Yozis more in the background is that you can keep perfectly serviceable Charms for deception and cursing and destroying people's memories and relationships, and it's just... demonic applications of Socialize or whatever. Mixed in with some other approaches, of course. Don't want to give the wrong impression of them.

      Many of the Ebon Dragon Charms are good enough to survive without the Second Edition Ebon Dragon, and I don't much care to find a new Yozi to house them.

      I don't expect that one She Who Lives in Her Name Charm with the really long title I can't remember. It made a land that would brainwash people or something, I think the scope is too big for a Charm.


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      • #4
        Given the changes to sorcery I suspect that at least some of the Sorcerous charms in Infernals will become actual sorcery spells. Not sure which ones. I haven't looked at Infernals in a long time.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Hark View Post
          Given the changes to sorcery I suspect that at least some of the Sorcerous charms in Infernals will become actual sorcery spells. Not sure which ones. I haven't looked at Infernals in a long time.
          Mind, Lunars have Charms that basically do the same thing without designating themselves with a Keyword or being vulnerable to countermagic... which is no longer a thing anyway. They just make the Duration Instant while including a time limit.

          Solars don't really have Charms like that, but I think the design principle is still sound for many Infernal Charms.

          There were Malfeas Charms to make you nigh immune to influence, those are right out, although I think some of the look and fluff could be salvaged.


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          • #6
            Swallowing the Scorpion and the whole Devil Tiger tree are probably going away (though I hope some of the names stick as a few of them were cool). We're also pretty likely not to have that one charm that dragged information out of a least god.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

              I don't expect that one She Who Lives in Her Name Charm with the really long title I can't remember. It made a land that would brainwash people or something, I think the scope is too big for a Charm.
              Chiralty Prohibition Index?

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              • #8
                Originally posted by nalak42 View Post
                Swallowing the Scorpion and the whole Devil Tiger tree are probably going away (though I hope some of the names stick as a few of them were cool). We're also pretty likely not to have that one charm that dragged information out of a least god.
                Vance's said they'll at least be keeping the concepts for Spirit of the Living World (creating a world in your soul) and Path of a Thousand Whispers (creating demons from aspects of your psyche).


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                • #9
                  Must admit that i never thought much about the subject of infernal charms between editions and what might or not get the axe - i have yet to delve really deep in mechanic changes between editions, specially considering that while i liked many concepts involved with them, my practical experience with the GSPs was minimal. I kind of doubt the change in portrayal & themes of some of the Yozis will have much of an impact in what will be cut or not - some fluff gymnastics might come up due to changed focus and orientations (is becoming a devil-tiger/embrionary neo-yozi still a thing?) but most charm concepts and tricks should stay where sound and fun i guess.

                  Sorcerous charms should be no big deal and might even be seen as obsolete in some aspects with the kind of expansion and updates Ssorcery as a whole got in 3e, with Initiations, sorcerous merits, shaping rituals, control spells & a few charms peppered across the books when it comes to customization/theming of an individual's personal sorcerous journey of discovery.

                  Overall i'm in no rush to deal with them at the moment - there's more than enough to tinker with and develop in renovated/updated Creation at the moment while the writers take their time with the other exalts, old and brand new (as an aside, i have toyed with the idea of writing some "Apocryphals" based on the alternate takes from Burn Legend or other setting from Shards of the Exalted Dream, but that is still for very, very far away in the future).



                  Originally posted by marin View Post

                  Vance's said they'll at least be keeping the concepts for Spirit of the Living World (creating a world in your soul) and Path of a Thousand Whispers (creating demons from aspects of your psyche).

                  Maybe my mind is just taking a funny bender, but i have been seeing hints of such posssibilities in the Solar occult charm tree, actually.
                  Last edited by Baaldam; 10-22-2019, 08:40 AM.

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                  • #10
                    I expect the Clarity Prohbition Index and the Desert Ceclyne charm might be condensed into something like Wyld Shaping Technique


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                    • #11
                      While we haven't gotten that far along, I suspect that any Sorcerous Charms that make it into Ex3 will stay Infernal Charms, and just lose the vulnerability to countermagic.


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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by marin View Post
                        Vance's said they'll at least be keeping the concepts for Spirit of the Living World (creating a world in your soul) and Path of a Thousand Whispers (creating demons from aspects of your psyche).
                        As someone eagerly awaiting the day that Indivisible becomes available on the Nintendo Switch, I would be disappointed if Ajna and her Incarnations and her Heruka form either don't inspire Infernal Exalted or are coincidentally possible with Infernal Exalt.

                        Ajna's Heruka form is easily a Shintai, and her Incarnations might be the Infernal answer to Solar personae, whether the Incarnations are demons or something more human.

                        See, I'm totally assuming that Ajna is the reincarnation of some divine being who incarnated into multiple other humans, with Ajna merely being the central piece.


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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Mockery View Post

                          Chiralty Prohibition Index?
                          Gesundheit.

                          Originally posted by Baaldam View Post

                          Sorcerous charms should be no big deal and might even be seen as obsolete in some aspects with the kind of expansion and updates Ssorcery as a whole got in 3e, with Initiations, sorcerous merits, shaping rituals, control spells & a few charms peppered across the books when it comes to customization/theming of an individual's personal sorcerous journey of discovery.
                          Charms with the Sorcerous Keyword weren't really in competition with actual sorcery, I think. It strikes me as having been more a case of exploring new Charm technology towards a point of allowing Infernals to deal out characteristic afflictions without committing their mote pool into nothing, as well as a bit of... consideration for the subject of Primordials originating sorcery that was introduced in that Edition.

                          As I said, Lunars also have a concern with throwing out native blessings and curses, and do basically the exact same thing without making as big a deal out of it. I can't really buy "Infernals won't have Charms to do ancient evil sorcerer king shit because they could learn spells for that" when Lunars are given a Charm to make a spot that will convert beastfolk rather than being told to become a sorcerer and use workings.

                          You know, there are things that come with the Infernal package that they should get in their own right; they should not be obligated to become sorcerers in order to do things that we would expect of them.

                          Second Edition balanced ongoing Charms without commitment by making them vulnerable to being countered and dispelled, but Third Edition has found alternative methods of limitation at the same time as it realized that one-stop dispellation was very boring and dropped it for actual spells, so I say it's fine either way.

                          Originally posted by Epee102 View Post
                          I expect the Clarity Prohbition Index and the Desert Ceclyne charm might be condensed into something like Wyld Shaping Technique
                          I can see that I wasn't fully articulating the problem, but when part of my issue with the former Charm was that it was far too wordy, I certainly wouldn't want it to have something else added to the mix and then modelled off of the single most wordy Charm ever and made available to function in more frequent places than the Wyld.

                          That being said, reminding myself of Lunar Charms that created areas with mystical properties makes me revise my position on the place of the Charm in question in terms of whether that kind of scope is appropriate. There's a precedent, and that's the last I'll say on it.



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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                            Charms with the Sorcerous Keyword weren't really in competition with actual sorcery, I think. It strikes me as having been more a case of exploring new Charm technology towards a point of allowing Infernals to deal out characteristic afflictions without committing their mote pool into nothing, as well as a bit of... consideration for the subject of Primordials originating sorcery that was introduced in that Edition.
                            Ah, i never meant such an opposition in any way, my bad if i gave such an impression by mistake.

                            I was thinking more along the lines of how consideration for the subject of Primordials originating sorcery was used as a springboard to explore expansions and a degree of theming in sorcery and a variety of related effects through the infernal charmset, venues that in 3e edition are now at least in part covered by the new Sorcery mechanics like initiation styles, shaping rituals and related supernatural merits.

                            More a matter of intercession between them and possible "obsolescence" so to speak of Sorcerous Keyword charms as an "infernal thing".
                            Last edited by Baaldam; 10-22-2019, 09:54 PM.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Baaldam View Post

                              Ah, i never meant such an opposition in any way, my bad if i gave such an impression by mistake.

                              I was thinking more along the lines of how consideration for the subject of Primordials originating sorcery was used as a springboard to explore expansions and a degree of theming in sorcery and a variety of related effects through the infernal charmset, venues that in 3e edition are now at least in part covered by the new Sorcery mechanics like initiation styles, shaping rituals and related supernatural merits.

                              More a matter of intercession between them and possible "obsolescence" so to speak of Sorcerous Keyword charms as an "infernal thing".
                              I think you're misremembering the Keyword as designating the six different Sorcerous Enlightenment of (Yozi) Charms. That Charm does have the Keyword (for some reason, it doesn't actually have a function there), but they're not what the Keyword is about. When talking about it, I have not been talking about how they would initiate into sorcery.


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