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  • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

    Well, it depends on the range of activity they're sold as being engaged in. The limits of the Lunar Exalted exist in the setting in addition to their powers.

    Although fair enough, Second Edition showed that you could hype up Infernals whose powers had basically nothing to do with their song place as secret agents and geomantic saboteurs, nor much thematic tie in to the return of the Solars. So maybe there would be people who would buy it (and then basically ignore half of it and fill in their own gaps).

    Still, I wouldn't find it satisfying. I think they need to feel like they stand alongside the Solars of they're post of that narrative of the returning heroes.



    It can be a bit shaky, but you click Quote under each post and then the button at the top of the page.



    What about Triumphant Howl of the Devil Tiger and its follow ups actually did the thing you're talking about?
    Oh thanks, I completely forgot about the button up top because I was so focused on the blue Post Reply one at the bottom. Anyway I did acknowledge that Devil-Tigers in practice were effectively empty space plus a blank cheque to write your own Charms, but that doesn't mean I don't admire the idea they represent even if I wish it had gotten an actual mechanical framework. I'd also argue that being able to create your own Third Circle Souls, being able to create your own Akuma and being able to slap away Limit onto Yozis whose Charms are open to you are all steps in that direction.

    Edit: Also just wanted to say, from the get-go my group and I have always seen Infernals as having a distinct narrative from Solars, which seems to be different to yours. We don't really think of them as returning heroes at all, we think of them more as a emergent god-monsters on a path that may not necessarily share the same values as humans, even divinely empowered ones.
    Last edited by Guitar Longcat; 11-30-2019, 12:36 AM. Reason: Addendum for prior point

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    • Originally posted by Guitar Longcat View Post
      I can't agree your assessment about the Deathlords being "vivid kings of the undead". What I largely took from their fluff in 2e was that they are, as a whole, failed and pathetickings of the undead neither having earned nor deserving loyalty even if you actually are interested in ending the world. They were represented as a group of individuals so consumed by infighting their masters would ocasionally punish them
      I'm talking about what they look like.

      Hence the description of First and Forsaken Lion and the kinds of Abyssal Charms that can produce. The actual character is irrelevant next to that (the fact of all the Deathlords receiving the same kind of writing revamp that Lunar elders have gotten notwithstanding).

      Originally posted by Guitar Longcat
      so it strikes me as bewildering that for Abyssals to take after them directly and not symbolic ceasation of Creation's aspects.
      What is a symbolic cessation of Creation's aspects?

      It's funny that Abyssals were supposed to be inspired by Wraith, when Oblivion is probably the least interesting thing about that property. Jesus, Oblivion is the least interesting thing about Oblivion; you've got all the stuff of Shadows and Spectres and the Onceborn, but somehow the elemental nothingness became the standard.

      There's a lot of mythology and literature to mine from the bleak domain of the ghosts before going into "death as cessation" being the motif for their powers. Have you listened to the soundtrack of Hadestown? I haven't, but I'm guessing it's not the next big Broadway success from being a lot of songs about becoming nothing.

      Originally posted by Guitar Longcat
      My point is that me and my group are absolutely more interested in the "you carry the alien nature of the Primordials within you" aspect of powers which set people on fire or blight feels, and don't appreciate them being treated as diluted and anxilliary to an exploration of First Age Solar hubris which, frankly, in many games we've run new Solars seem to represent perfectly well (funnily, we came to the conclusion some of our Solars were crueller out of Limit Break than in it).
      That's not a conclusion, that's how you've chosen to play them, and it has some distinctions from how the game writes them.

      Infernals need to balance that line of being like the Solars enough to deserve a place in the Time of Tumult, and unlike enough to deserve being a separate thing.

      Originally posted by Guitar Longcat
      The issue is the personal capabilities of the Yozis feel sidelined, and as a result the powers bestowed feel diluted and insincere, hollow attempts at aping something with a greater mythos and potential scope for storytelling development.
      You know that thing you said about how the Yozis were cast down and broken by the Exalted?

      That's why they should be sidelined, that's why their mythos is less significant, that's why their narratives are subordinate to the Exalted.

      I don't care about the Yozis. Stripmine their aesthetics to create tools for telling stories about larger than life human personalities. Take a Yozi as the basis for some braggart shooting fanged tentacles from his fingertips so the game can include Dio Brando.

      Abilities shall give those aesthetics structure, direction and depth. They will not be diluted Yozi Charms, they will be a framework for creating Exalted Charms.

      We've got three Third Edition Exalted Charm sets now. Consider what it means to have Melee Charms as strong as those of the Solars, but splintering off in multiple directions of sorcerous weirdness rather than being an extremely fast and precise swordfighter with a keen edge.


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      • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

        I'm talking about what they look like.

        Hence the description of First and Forsaken Lion and the kinds of Abyssal Charms that can produce. The actual character is irrelevant next to that (the fact of all the Deathlords receiving the same kind of writing revamp that Lunar elders have gotten notwithstanding).



        What is a symbolic cessation of Creation's aspects?

        It's funny that Abyssals were supposed to be inspired by Wraith, when Oblivion is probably the least interesting thing about that property. Jesus, Oblivion is the least interesting thing about Oblivion; you've got all the stuff of Shadows and Spectres and the Onceborn, but somehow the elemental nothingness became the standard.

        There's a lot of mythology and literature to mine from the bleak domain of the ghosts before going into "death as cessation" being the motif for their powers. Have you listened to the soundtrack of Hadestown? I haven't, but I'm guessing it's not the next big Broadway success from being a lot of songs about becoming nothing.



        That's not a conclusion, that's how you've chosen to play them, and it has some distinctions from how the game writes them.

        Infernals need to balance that line of being like the Solars enough to deserve a place in the Time of Tumult, and unlike enough to deserve being a separate thing.



        You know that thing you said about how the Yozis were cast down and broken by the Exalted?

        That's why they should be sidelined, that's why their mythos is less significant, that's why their narratives are subordinate to the Exalted.

        I don't care about the Yozis. Stripmine their aesthetics to create tools for telling stories about larger than life human personalities. Take a Yozi as the basis for some braggart shooting fanged tentacles from his fingertips so the game can include Dio Brando.

        Abilities shall give those aesthetics structure, direction and depth. They will not be diluted Yozi Charms, they will be a framework for creating Exalted Charms.

        We've got three Third Edition Exalted Charm sets now. Consider what it means to have Melee Charms as strong as those of the Solars, but splintering off in multiple directions of sorcerous weirdness rather than being an extremely fast and precise swordfighter with a keen edge.
        I'm aware, I'm just not sold on the idea of Abyssals being cooler if they look like that than if they look like-well sure, let's go with skipping the middleman and go with the bleak domain of the Underworld proper, pyreflame and bone and all that good stuff. The angle I'm getting at is something more elemental, more fundamental to death's dominion than the old poster boys for it.

        I never said it was a conclusion. And if it has distinctions from how the game writes them, well firstly the gameline left enough room for interpretation that I don't think it's invalid to play them the way we do. And secondly, I don't actually see how it's relevant when it's what we found fun and enjoyed from the game; say a lot of things about 2e but the one thing I didn't feel was a dogmatic obligation to adhere to some dogmatic cut-and-dried interpretation of splats that was the one thing, the true thing and the only thing they could ever be so in that regard I don't see how my opinion of what we enjoyed about Infernals, as a paying consumer, is any less valid than any other.

        I don't agree that Infernals have any obligation to be like Solars at all, TO deserve a place in the Time of Turmult. I certainly doubt Abyssals will, to the extent that a narrative of "returning heroes" will override a narrative of "harbinger of death" as a first impression before accounting for individual characterisations and games. I have to be honest here, the rest of what you wrote sounds like an inrreconcilable difference in personal opinion in what we enjoyed about Infernals: I feel there are many other splats for telling stories about larger than life people, and I find the idea of oversimplifying the alien and frightening nature of the Infernal Exalted to "multiple directions of sorcerous weirdness" as opposed to a fundamental and dramatic divorce from the human experience into a singular cosmic force incarnate of unknown provenance. Furthermore I do not think the Yozis necessarily have to be personally involved in Creaiton in as major a way as they were in 2e, but I do find an interesting part of Infernals being the part where the Yozis leave an impression on their own champions. If that's what you find fun well, I'm glad for you that you're enjoying the premises set out much more than I am. But from where I'm standing it feels, to be quite blunt emasculating to lose that metaphysical complexity, that potential for unknowable transcendence with what by all accounts appears to be a less interesting ceiling than what was promised in 2e.

        This is all predicated by the disclaimer that I am discussing themes and concepts only, given I have no mechanics or published materials to criticise of course, and that honestly if I end up eating my words by having fun with Infernals 3e when it's out I'll do so happily.

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        • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
          So maybe there would be people who would buy it (and then basically ignore half of it and fill in their own gaps).
          In terms of "holes", the context should have been clear, but if not, I am continuing on from ideas from Blaque's post in which he talks about Charms to support Abilities which cannot be present due to the underlying logic in Infernal Charms. I'm not talking about holes as in the Sidereal set, or simply limitations of wordcount. Intrinsic holes which exist due to structure. (To Blaque the section from Blaque's post. "No Infernal is ever a sailor because Yozis don't use boats". Or equally you could say, "No Lunar will ever have specific Bureaucracy Charms, because that is the nature of their magic").

          This being the case, I'm not sure how or why you'd propose that fans would later fill these in post-publishing.

          Originally posted by Guitar Longcat View Post
          As for that last part, I can't disagree more. In the same way Solars have Supernal abilities to represent their absolute elan, the other thing about Infernals that made them unique to my group was the narrative that they COULD, even if most games didn't actually reach that point, have a chance at transforming into beings of singular nature and power as written by Jenna in Games of Divinity. And I truly don't think the power disparity is disruptive with a good group due to the Imperfections of 2e providing gaping holes in these natures as well as, the basic goal of playing Infernals being an exploration of nonhuman characters as I said earlier and if nothing else the fact that Ambition 3 Solar Workings show that Solars themselves are capable of producing beings of singular nature and power wholesale or even making subtle alterations to the cosmos seemingly limited only by the ST's discretion.
          I get this appeal, but the power disparity (even as "A point beyond which is actually supported by mechanics", which is kind of unsatisfying) really is destructive, imo to what Exalted is trying to do.

          Either Solars can meet the Infernals at that level, in which case they're going well beyond the implied Solars of the First Age (more towards some sort of ultra-potent, platonic version of the figure of the hero) and well beyond what actually supports the stories Exalted tells, and leaving the other Celestials Exalted behind... or the Solars can't, in which case they are no longer the central players in the story as the setting is built to be.

          If you assume that the Solars can meet the Infernals, and you want to avoid Celestials being left behind, you can introduce "high essence transcendence" for other Celestials too, as was proposed (through SMA or whatever) - but then there is the issue of how this actually fits with the return of the Solars being a big deal.

          It's the Devil or the Deep Blue Sea - either one of sets of options is inescapable and both are not desirable.

          If Exalted had been built from ground up to accommodate a long term evolution of all the Chosen to the power of the Yozis, as a supported part of the game, then that might have worked. But it would be a very different gameline with a very different history and setting!

          Of course, this is all postscripted that perhaps I'm really wrong about how powerful the Yozi are and this is not really a problem....! But that doesn't seem to fit with how I read GoD (the ur-text on the Yozi).

          Originally posted by Blaque View Post

          The thing I would say in that, I don't think Infernals really ever provided that in 2e either, since I think the Yozis as they were in 2e were not the same things as presented in GoD.
          Yes, you can add to everything Infernal characters probably can't be Yozis as presented in GoD and things which Infernal player characters can evolve into through accumulating Charms. (And 2e Yozi are partly this and partly change in writers). But that is an additional issue.

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          • EDIT: Never mind, misread previous posts.

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            • Originally posted by Ghosthead View Post

              In terms of "holes", the context should have been clear, but if not, I am continuing on from ideas from Blaque's post in which he talks about Charms to support Abilities which cannot be present due to the underlying logic in Infernal Charms. I'm not talking about holes as in the Sidereal set, or simply limitations of wordcount. Intrinsic holes which exist due to structure. (To Blaque the section from Blaque's post. "No Infernal is ever a sailor because Yozis don't use boats". Or equally you could say, "No Lunar will ever have specific Bureaucracy Charms, because that is the nature of their magic").

              This being the case, I'm not sure how or why you'd propose that fans would later fill these in post-publishing.



              I get this appeal, but the power disparity (even as "A point beyond which is actually supported by mechanics", which is kind of unsatisfying) really is destructive, imo to what Exalted is trying to do.

              Either Solars can meet the Infernals at that level, in which case they're going well beyond the implied Solars of the First Age (more towards some sort of ultra-potent, platonic version of the figure of the hero) and well beyond what actually supports the stories Exalted tells, and leaving the other Celestials Exalted behind... or the Solars can't, in which case they are no longer the central players in the story as the setting is built to be.

              If you assume that the Solars can meet the Infernals, and you want to avoid Celestials being left behind, you can introduce "high essence transcendence" for other Celestials too, as was proposed (through SMA or whatever) - but then there is the issue of how this actually fits with the return of the Solars being a big deal.

              It's the Devil or the Deep Blue Sea - either one of sets of options is inescapable and both are not desirable.

              If Exalted had been built from ground up to accommodate a long term evolution of all the Chosen to the power of the Yozis, as a supported part of the game, then that might have worked. But it would be a very different gameline with a very different history and setting!

              Of course, this is all postscripted that perhaps I'm really wrong about how powerful the Yozi are and this is not really a problem....! But that doesn't seem to fit with how I read GoD (the ur-text on the Yozi).



              Yes, you can add to everything Infernal characters probably can't be Yozis as presented in GoD and things which Infernal player characters can evolve into through accumulating Charms. (And 2e Yozi are partly this and partly change in writers). But that is an additional issue.
              My take is that Infernals are to raw, spiritual power what Solars are to arete in fields of skill such as melee prowess or occult understanding and Abyssals are to the bringing of and rulership over death. Yes, given my druthers I would concede that endgame Infernals as I envision them would have the greatest "raw" power in terms of essence pools and wide scale Charms...BUT, at the same time I would never really see them escaping Imperfections and thus have wide, easily exploitable weakness as intrinsic to their supernal natures as their supernal natures are to their cosmic power. Similarly I doubt either Solars or Infernals would, within the strict focus of bringing about utter oblivion and death to the undying, be likely to outdo Abyssals. I do see "being cosmic forces" as Infernals' shtick but by no means do I think this makes them intrinsically superior to the other splats. A good example is the Supernal mechanic for 3e Solars, which allows a chargen Solar to access such ludicrous abilities as Fate-Shifting Solar Arete and Nine Aeons Thew. While I can't speak for a splat whose mechanics aren't published yet, I will say Solars being able to simply reroll a major success for any endeavor gives them a distict advantage over a splat whose cosmic power is thematically focus into a limited group.

              Of course, that is just conjecture based on our knowledge of Solars and I may be proven wrong when Infernals are actually out.

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              • Originally posted by Ghosthead View Post
                I get this appeal, but the power disparity (even as "A point beyond which is actually supported by mechanics", which is kind of unsatisfying) really is destructive, imo to what Exalted is trying to do.

                Either Solars can meet the Infernals at that level, in which case they're going well beyond the implied Solars of the First Age (more towards some sort of ultra-potent, platonic version of the figure of the hero) and well beyond what actually supports the stories Exalted tells, and leaving the other Celestials Exalted behind... or the Solars can't, in which case they are no longer the central players in the story as the setting is built to be.

                If you assume that the Solars can meet the Infernals, and you want to avoid Celestials being left behind, you can introduce "high essence transcendence" for other Celestials too, as was proposed (through SMA or whatever) - but then there is the issue of how this actually fits with the return of the Solars being a big deal.

                It's the Devil or the Deep Blue Sea - either one of sets of options is inescapable and both are not desirable.

                If Exalted had been built from ground up to accommodate a long term evolution of all the Chosen to the power of the Yozis, as a supported part of the game, then that might have worked. But it would be a very different gameline with a very different history and setting!
                I am also in the camp that extremely enjoys the potential for cosmic-scale stories which Infernals bring, so I would be very unhappy if this is edited out.

                I don't think that the alternative you sketched is exhaustive. Why not simply make this part of the setting, posthuman evolution of Infernals, an optional canon, like the additional exalt types? Many fans find it the selling point of Infernals and one of the most interesting corners of the Exalted.

                I would just like to say that this kind of attitude in game design is one of the things I find most irritating about the 3rd Edition: forcefully choosing what is the only right tone and scope of the game. At this point, this is a broad game with a vast setting, with multiple themes and multiple sources of inspiration. Classic mythology, shonen anime, wuxia, sword-and-sorcery... There are many things there. Infernals was a part which was naturally leaning towards cosmic-scale stories. Radically changing this pure coolness in the name of purity of inspiration seems just wasteful. You are cutting out one of the selling points.

                I think that the ideal, non-aggressive solution of this and similar cases would be more or less this: the developers choose what kind of stories they want to tell. Let's say it is currently a mix of sword-and-sorcery with classic mythology. Then they treat the parts of the setting which have keen fans as explicitly optional. Just a sidebar saying "in the previous editions Infernals could transcend Yozis because this and this. We chose to change the scope and the mood of the game, so we leave this option as extremely optional. If you choose it, keep in mind that this and that."

                Seriously, I sometimes happen to find small obscurities from the previous editions which were rather important part of the setting, looked to me immensely cool which get no mention in the third. It really feels like some propaganda and I fell as if uncovering bits of some forbidden lore, the actual, suppressed history of the setting. I really think they should follow the path of XXth Anniversary Mage which is actively friendly about the choice of the tone and playstyle, and become more explicitly open about crucial parts of the previous iterations of the setting and just write a sidebar to the effect that such-and-such thing is more canonical, but left as an option. By the way, I think that the Void also deserves this treatment, because having hole of all-consuming nothingness and the desperate escape plan of Dowager seem all immensely cool to me.
                Last edited by Lanic; 11-30-2019, 11:57 AM.

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                • Originally posted by Ghosthead View Post
                  If you assume that the Solars can meet the Infernals, and you want to avoid Celestials being left behind, you can introduce "high essence transcendence" for other Celestials too, as was proposed (through SMA or whatever) - but then there is the issue of how this actually fits with the return of the Solars being a big.
                  That’s also a bad idea because it creates a major rift between Solars/Abyssals/Sidereals/Lunars/Infernals and Liminals/Dragonblooded/getimen/Exigents ect. Right now there’s a difference in power, but they still do fundamentally the same things and interact with eachother and the world in the same ways.

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                  • Lanic, sure an optional deutero-canon, Infernals-Gaiden, sidebar might be a way to go. I guess I am speaking more in a position of where I would think the developers would be sketching out the main direction and why they should, assuming limited resources.

                    Putting in optional paragraphs / few pages of "What If....?" seems (tentatively) totally fine - like, to use a probably even more niche case example, maybe someone does want to play a game where Dragonbloods learn SMA and become an equal to the Celestials through it, or if someone does want to play a game where the Forest Witches really do Make anime the Sea of Mind Real and became as gods. Totally fine, but weird I guess places to put resources and default assumptions. Would that level of resource and coverage and optional status really satisfy people who want a lot of mechanical development towards Yozis-as-Infernals-transcendence and that to be the default assumption when they try to to get together groups though? I don't know. But yeah, OK.

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                    • Ghosthead I wouldn't really need to have mechanically developed description of how you transcend Yozis. Generally, I believe that if your game reaches the point when it becomes relevant, probably ST and everyone involved will figure this out anyway. I was specifically thinking of this quote:

                      Originally posted by Ghosthead View Post
                      Not even in a "This could happen but is mechanically going to be unsupported" sense. Has bad consequences (power inflation, messes with the goals of playing humanistic characters, etc.).
                      Probably not even this quote in particular. It seemed representative of a general feel in third edition. You see, second edition has bad reputation for over-explaining things. But, from little what I saw, first edition would hint at many, let's say, cosmological aspects of the setting with strong hint that they may become relevant to your game, very much like oWoD, but without giving them any further explanation.

                      I think that third edition sometimes rather than taking a step back into that mysterious flair, directly opposes the relevance or even existence of those weirder parts of the setting. Maybe more in the core book than in later supplements. I was very pleased to see Yatani's children or Arms mentioning "stranger places for which current era has no name."

                      I am sorry if this looked overly defensive, but I think that the status of Infernals will be a battlefield for the vision of third edition, as it directly touches upon more cosmic scale parts of the setting, and I would be very happy with more conciliatory take.
                      Last edited by Lanic; 11-30-2019, 12:50 PM.

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                      • Lanic, you're probably right that I really should have said "This *will* happen, canonically, and it's just a matter of time and accumulation of experience, but will be mechanically supported" rather than "could".

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                        • Thinking about it, you basically already have a canon-optional Devil-Tiger option. It was already written. That portion of Broken Winged Crane would port over just fine, as all of those charms were just purchased narrative justification, with very little interaction with any system or sub-system.

                          What part of it needs to be rewritten?


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                          • Originally posted by MoroseMorgan View Post
                            Thinking about it, you basically already have a canon-optional Devil-Tiger option. It was already written. That portion of Broken Winged Crane would port over just fine, as all of those charms were just purchased narrative justification, with very little interaction with any system or sub-system.

                            What part of it needs to be rewritten?
                            Literally none, I guess? If it was just slightly revised and incorporporated into the text of third edition Infernals, I would be more than happy.

                            Somewhat more seriously: we have some cool options for the setting and for the stories out there sketched for secod edition. We can ignore them, as they don't fit our propose vision and wait for fresh players to rediscover it and see how cool Infernals were on their own. Or we could just explicitely acknowledge that there was this option which we think currently doesn't work for the game, so we ignore ir, but manny people liked ir, so we describe it anyway.

                            The second option seems so non-invasive that I seriously wonder why it is not considered an absolute standard.

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                            • A bit of a problem with the Infernal-Solar arms race to some extent is that it in the end, made the entire rest of Exalted irreleviant or appear so. This is because the long term assumption is that 1 Solar = 1 Primordial. Which means that 1 Solar can defeat 1 Primordial. Which means that there being 300ish Solars either means 1) There are a fuckload more Primordials dead or Yozi or the number of Solars is pretty superfluous or 2) It had to be something time-gated (which Ex2 did with Essence 6+ admitedlY) that prevents this from being more than an "Angels on pinheads" situation...and so pretty much useless for most games of Exalted ever played since very few actually went to Essence 6+ and so a waste of time, concept space and word count..

                              Like, for me, I never liked the Infernals = Yozis thing as it played on the "Solars eventually become oomnipotent" trope that made other Exalts feel superfluous and even at times the gameline's outright hostility to some of them. In trying to maintain Solars and derivitives as their peers, having a part of them be potentially 50 more Yozis meant that you do a lot to warp the setting's power scales in ways it was never built for or assumed. Exalted, early on, was a Dying Earth setting about the kind of romance of empires, heroism, and folks living up to legend of armies of the gods fighting great singular beings in titanomachy. When you can become one of those things it took armies of the other PC types to take down, the setting just kind of gets warped weirdly. Becoming a Yozi-level thing is interesting. It is also just in the end, probably something I think not explored in Exalted in a way that's healthy for setting integrity.

                              When you have 300 or so Exalts who have various versions of "Become Dr. Manhattan" some of the stuff that sold folks on the setting relating to entirely different genres of fiction get lost along the way. No one gives a shit you made Zorayas' Zojad, Romances Han-style collapse of the Realm, or games of political wrangling over the corpse of Alexandar when oh hey this guy became the Ebon Dragon, gotta stop him or the whole world ends!

                              When the arms race of "How can a singular Solar fight a singular Infernal wiht a real Yozi-sized soul pantheon..." means "The Solar can singularly ifght a titan", you just end up with a setting that is more about fighting big numbers and not really interacting with the setting. Exalted really was never I think originally designed to be this DC New Gods duking it out or TTGL fighting Anti-Spirals. But hwen you are doing stories on that level of scale, stuff like I dunno, the Wars of the Diadochi, Romance of the 3 Kingdoms, or I dunno, Mahasamatman taking on Heaven by founding the EIghtfold Path or something, feel like they lose a lot of their relevance.

                              I'd rather see just how Infernals, as characters you actually see play, wield power in the world they are expected to play in. You are Chosen and you have power. That power is mighty and alien. But you are still the person wielding that power for your goals and it is still a representation of your character's skill and will on the world. I'd rather see focus on that than some naval-gazing thing on how being "super duper powerful means I can pretend to be something lockedin Hell for eternity to sfufer and meant to be a device to spawn the NPCs I enslave with sorcery."
                              Last edited by Blaque; 12-01-2019, 01:08 AM.


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                              • Or to put another way, if a Solar has to have things to equal an Inferanl equalling a Primordial...why the fuck do we have nearly 800 Celetail Exalted, thousands of DBs and hundreds of other Exaltas again? Why should the game ultimately be "Solars and their peers, plus these other guys?" I'd rather a game be about the Exalted interacting as well, Exalted. Rather than Exalts trying to be something else and dragging the rest of the line to play their game in the process.


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