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  • Originally posted by Aliasi View Post

    No. You really can't except in the sense of completely ignoring things, but then we're in the same territory as imperialism apologia for the Realm, portraying the Perfect of Paragon as the good kind of absolute dictator, or (less negatively) handwaving the genre tropes of clasic Silver Age Superheroes. Those are fine if that's the kind of thing you want, but it's not fine insofar as it's not really the default presentation of Exalted which is all about "fantastic powers in a brutally down to earth background." I.e., the old comments about an Exalted battlefield being a scene out of Saving Private Ryan, except every so often a couple of demigods touch the ground and everyone around them explodes.

    At best, you can lessen the idea of a Reclamation to something akin to what the original 3e Infernal preview material suggested, i.e. it's a very long term ploy that is not guaranteed to succeed. But the full on Return of the Scarlet Empress-style idea? The Yozis breaking out of Hell is the single most threatening existential crisis that can face Creation. Full stop. (At most it may seem like it isn't, if we're reducing the Yozis to 2e Infernals-style charm robots, but given the Primordial War was vastly destructive to Creation and the death of a Primordial has enough bad side effects imprisoning them seemed like a better idea...)

    The Primordials' role to be something incomprehensibly, inhumanly vast.... that can still be killed, with great effort. This is no different than a venomous spider being able to kill a human without that spider understanding the first thing about how how a television, atomic bombs, or bug spray works; the human is still capable of vastly more impactful actions on the world than that spider. If you handwave or downplay that, you're either not playing the 'epic titanomachy setting' of Infernals so many people want, or, frankly, you're doing a shitty job of portraying Primordials.
    You've said it yourself: you could ignore these things. If I want to play the Reclamation, you can bet I'll blow things up. If I don't, why would I need to be tied to the 'epic titanomachy setting'? The point is being able to have the choice.

    An RPG setting isn't like a video game. There isn't just one story you have to follow. The settings are designed to let you tell a variety of different stories. Furthermore, why should one person's choices about a facet of the game they're never going to engage with stop me using that facet myself?

    (Also, I don't recognise the same game you do. That's a strength of the setting, I guess, but I don't play Exalted to play Saving Private Ryan.)

    Depending on who you ask, climate change is *the* most pressing issue for our world right now--and you can bet many people are ignoring that.

    Just because the Reclamation is a thing in the setting doesn't mean it has to be a thing at your table. Exalts don't have to deal with the biggest threat that exists; they only need to deal with the most *relevant* threats *to them*. If something is happening hundreds or thousands of miles away, or another army of Solars is dealing with it (and probably a decent chunk of everyone else too) then it doesn't matter to lots of people.

    That's the way people are and we see it every day. People think, 'It'll be fine,' or 'That's somebody else's problem.' If they didn't, frankly, we'd have all gone mad worrying about all the things we can't fix but want to.

    But I think we're still digressing because the point most of us who liked 2e Infernals are trying to make is about Infernals' Charms and transhumanism. These two things don't require the Reclamation, and I previously said I'm perfectly happy to ditch that part of the story.

    It's just a shame to remove two of the most interesting parts of the Infernals (for many people) just because people didn't like a related but not essential concept that was always pretty optional anyway. And as someone pointed out upthread, the Triumphant Howl of the Devil Tiger doesn't actually allow anyone to become a Primordial anyway. It just suggests that it's one possible, if ill-defined, endgame. Like Golconda in Vampire, or the original Broken Winged Crane in Kindred of the East (which also led to demonic apotheosis).
    Last edited by adambeyoncelowe; 12-03-2019, 01:18 PM.

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    • Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post
      the point most of us who liked 2e Infernals are trying to make is about Infernals' Charms and transhumanism. These two things don't require the Reclamation, and I previously said I'm perfectly happy to ditch that part of the story.

      It's just a shame to remove two of the most interesting parts of the Infernals (for many people) just because people didn't like a related but not essential concept that was always pretty optional anyway.
      Here's a question:

      Why are Stealth Charms based on transforming into an invisible blind murder wind that causes the people it slays to be erased from memory, in addition to custom-built shintais, not transhumanism?

      I'm gonna set aside my own antipathy for that philosophy for a while to interrogate the sentiment this particular premise that people are attached to is not one that the initial proof of concept does not allow.

      I think Holden only mentioned it once, but there's also a strong mechanical reason to overhaul the Infernal Charms, and it's because as they were written at the start you got cascades that had to cover so much ground that it literally could not fit in the book, and still didn't exactly offer much variety in character builds or progression. It would have been like that even with full access to all of six published Yozis, but it was also a design that incentivized you to stick to your Caste and Favoured ones by locking most Charms behind the Excellency, and making the Excellency something you had to purchase as many times as you had Essence levels.

      That was before 2.5, when they started to realise that the design pivoted really heavily on cheap perfect defences, without which it ended up as a form of Charm cloud ala First Edition Lunars.

      So why is them being Abilities assumed to mean they can't ultimately touch the same basic themes and aesthetics, and is that a reason that can still be mechanically cohesive? Because I assume people want it to be, and that they don't prioritize the statement made by Malfeas defensive Charms over whether they can effectively keep your character alive.

      Also keeping in mind that a detachment from Abilities was always a bit superficial, since they were still the crux of your dice cap and you still needed to have dice pools to use a lot of those Charms.


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      • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

        Here's a question:

        Why are Stealth Charms based on transforming into an invisible blind murder wind that causes the people it slays to be erased from memory, in addition to custom-built shintais, not transhumanism?

        I'm gonna set aside my own antipathy for that philosophy for a while to interrogate the sentiment this particular premise that people are attached to is not one that the initial proof of concept does not allow.

        I think Holden only mentioned it once, but there's also a strong mechanical reason to overhaul the Infernal Charms, and it's because as they were written at the start you got cascades that had to cover so much ground that it literally could not fit in the book, and still didn't exactly offer much variety in character builds or progression. It would have been like that even with full access to all of six published Yozis, but it was also a design that incentivized you to stick to your Caste and Favoured ones by locking most Charms behind the Excellency, and making the Excellency something you had to purchase as many times as you had Essence levels.

        That was before 2.5, when they started to realise that the design pivoted really heavily on cheap perfect defences, without which it ended up as a form of Charm cloud ala First Edition Lunars.

        So why is them being Abilities assumed to mean they can't ultimately touch the same basic themes and aesthetics, and is that a reason that can still be mechanically cohesive? Because I assume people want it to be, and that they don't prioritize the statement made by Malfeas defensive Charms over whether they can effectively keep your character alive.

        Also keeping in mind that a detachment from Abilities was always a bit superficial, since they were still the crux of your dice cap and you still needed to have dice pools to use a lot of those Charms.
        Previously the Charms made you a killing wind, period. Now they let you emulate a killing wind for a short peroid of time based on your mundane skill at hiding. That's not remotely the same thing.

        Why do we assume that being Abilities means they won't be cohesive? Literally every Exalted book published. From the Charm clouds of 1E Lunars (which you mentioned yourself) to the complete lack of out-of-aspect support in What Fire Has Wrought. I can't wait to have my Scourge have to use Malfeas themed Melee Charms and Ebon Dragon themed Archery Charms the same as literally every other Infernal because the trees don't even vaguely support any other style of play.

        We're upset because we're paying attention.

        Now I really like WFWH, but there's no way any reasonable person can look at the content the devs are putting out and think that Infernals will have anything like the scale and remit they had in 2E. And once you abandon the idea of a Scourge and a Slayer fighting differently (or climbing differently, or seducing differently), and reduce Infernals to expressions of generic mundane Ability, you get Green Solars.

        I'm sure the Malfeas Melee Charms will keep me alive just as well as Solar ones... no matter what Caste I am. And that's the problem. We prioritize the aesthetics because that's what Infernals are: otherwise you might as well just play Solars.


        Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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        • I'd like to see Infernals being quite different from Solars, and being more and more different as their Essence increases.

          So seeing them slowly turn into transhuman demonic entities, similar to the Yozis themselves (as long as it's balanced for the essence level, etc), seems fun to me.

          But I agree with Isator about the charms, and how weird mechanically they made your character (having played in an Infernals game), and not weird in a good way. To expand on that though, in practice most characters tended to go mostly into one or two Yozis (I don't think I ever saw any Infernal taking more than 1 or 2 charms from a third Yozi). So, by the time you were about to start turning into your own Primordial, you had, say, most of the Malfeas charm set, meaning you were basically going to be a kind of cut-price Malfeas.

          Therefore, I think that turning into your own cosmic entity is better with charmsets that are not supposed to be the actual charms of the Yozis.

          I'll be honest though, I can kind of also see John's argument about Abilities. I don't think it's impossible to do Abilities very differently from Solars (Dragonblood are reasonably different, though I don't think they're a great model for this). But it would need a mindset... hmmm, I guess a bit more like Sidereals. Where, say, Integrity charms let you spawn spirit familiars because you have a bigger soul, or Bureaucracy charms let you buy souls in return for blessings, or Awareness charms let you hear the prayers of your worshippers. As opposed to "hit things really well but limned in Green Fire", which obviously would be Green Solar-esque.

          And I'll be honest, as the books not going to be out for... oh, I'd guess 4 years, and the previous Infernal preview was written by devs who are no longer in charge, I really can't tell where the devs are going to go with this, and honestly they probably can't either. They're too busy with Exigents and then it'll be Sidereals.
          Last edited by The Wizard of Oz; 12-03-2019, 02:52 PM.


          I run... Lunars: The Apocalypse! Exalted 3rd edition. Fimbulwinter is upon the world as an Ice Age begins, and only six young Lunar heroes have a chance of saving humanity.

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          • I saw it mentioend but we will see 3rd Circle Demons. One was written-up for Hundred Devils Night Parade at least. These are notably epic threats, that note also that the rush to titanhood got left behind since when a PC can become a Yozi, who cares about its souls?


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            • Originally posted by Guitar Longcat View Post

              Well, I disagree because my position is that in fact one can participate in these stories without being a cosmic entity. The Exalted WON the Primordial War after all. I don't think it's correct at all to avoid the possibility just because you prefer one playstyle to the other instead of simply tailoring the content to leave space for both options.
              The Exalted, as a Host, won the War of the Gods. It wasn't every single titan being taken down bya single equally matched Solar. It was the host of the Exalted plus mortal armies and Dragon King and Jadeborn allies who did it. This is a big issue with additioanl titanic threats like that being PCs. Either PCs were always able to match these (and therefore, the enemies of the god weren't all taht) or you have some means to basically make you kind of single solo a bunch of swaths of other PC types, whcih kind of gets into my "Hyperbolic power levels" thing. And again, I don't deny you can't particpate. I said so earlier. I disagree that you yourself have to be one such being or that such beings should be a goal of a PC type or something that should be accessable. Because the game has to you know, be a game and assume that there is some parity to players. It doesn't assume aboslute (DBs are still weaker than Solars), it is notable that in 3e, there is a point ot make that gulf less.

              And in that context, going and becoming Ebon Dragon Mark II is probably not going to do a lot of good for this since the game has setup the gap of indivdiual Exalted power and titan as something that in the end, nature confiens you more than raw power. And a being who has as their souls dozens of entiteis meant to be individually a compelling, interesting challnege you is probably just not something the game is going to really work hard for you to become.


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              • Originally posted by Blaque View Post
                The Exalted, as a Host, won the War of the Gods. It wasn't every single titan being taken down bya single equally matched Solar. It was the host of the Exalted plus mortal armies and Dragon King and Jadeborn allies who did it.
                Don’t forget wielding arms and artiface crafted by The Great Maker himself. There was also a few titans on the other side of that conflict though, making battling one as the source of a campaign more plausible.

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                • Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                  Previously the Charms made you a killing wind, period. Now they let you emulate a killing wind for a short peroid of time based on your mundane skill at hiding. That's not remotely the same thing.

                  Why do we assume that being Abilities means they won't be cohesive? Literally every Exalted book published. From the Charm clouds of 1E Lunars (which you mentioned yourself) to the complete lack of out-of-aspect support in What Fire Has Wrought. I can't wait to have my Scourge have to use Malfeas themed Melee Charms and Ebon Dragon themed Archery Charms the same as literally every other Infernal because the trees don't even vaguely support any other style of play.
                  Isn't Adorjan super-fond of killing up close? I'd expect her to be the main Melee Yozi above all others; Malfeas might have some, but if 1e Malfeas is going to be closer to what we're looking at, he's going to be getting all of the Charms for dismembering people and such. Not about yelling or ultraviolence, is 1e Malfeas, but in unmatched cruelty toward the gods and Exalted in all things.

                  We're upset because we're paying attention.

                  Now I really like WFWH, but there's no way any reasonable person can look at the content the devs are putting out and think that Infernals will have anything like the scale and remit they had in 2E. And once you abandon the idea of a Scourge and a Slayer fighting differently (or climbing differently, or seducing differently), and reduce Infernals to expressions of generic mundane Ability, you get Green Solars.

                  I'm sure the Malfeas Melee Charms will keep me alive just as well as Solar ones... no matter what Caste I am. And that's the problem. We prioritize the aesthetics because that's what Infernals are: otherwise you might as well just play Solars.
                  This is probably a completely different issue, but there won't be Slayers and such. The caste names are different and the Yozi associations with each are getting axed, probably so that the others beyond the Big Five can have time to shine.

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                  • Infernals 2e did suffer from real bad integration of who the Infernals were as heroes and people and the Charmsets that were built to support them, which preceded as separate depictions (former bad, latter well received but possibly with some problems as a part of the whole).

                    Who are these people as heroes, what are their relationships and loyalties, what are the cultures they are bound to, what are their ambitions, what action do they engage in within Creation? (I feel after 2e Infernals, I do not really know). Their Charms then need to support whatever these are, whether we're interested in these being cued on Abilities or not. If they are built around telling stories built around human personalities, then Charms must facilitate those or not get in the way; if they are built around some other stories, how and why are we engaged in those, and how do Charms facilitate those, and where do they fit in the setting's genre?

                    (I think this is a topic Lioness has broached somewhat before, but I don't want to misquote her).

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                    • Originally posted by Ghosthead View Post
                      Infernals 2e did suffer from real bad integration of who the Infernals were as heroes and people and the Charmsets that were built to support them, which preceded as separate depictions (former bad, latter well received but possibly with some problems as a part of the whole).
                      That's the kind of thing I meant when I was talking about how the setting treated them as secret agent man which their Charms didn't really like up with.


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                      • Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                        Previously the Charms made you a killing wind, period. Now they let you emulate a killing wind for a short peroid of time based on your mundane skill at hiding. That's not remotely the same thing.
                        Hmm, let's check what specific wording the Kickstarter preview used...

                        Originally posted by Drifting Trauma Gale
                        The Infernal becomes the Silent Wind
                        Oh, well, that was pretty straightforward.

                        Originally posted by JohnDoe244
                        Why do we assume that being Abilities means they won't be cohesive? Literally every Exalted book published.
                        Jesus, if you think the books are that badly written then why are you even here?

                        Originally posted by JohnDoe244
                        the complete lack of out-of-aspect support in What Fire Has Wrought. I can't wait to have my Scourge have to use Malfeas themed Melee Charms and Ebon Dragon themed Archery Charms the same as literally every other Infernal because the trees don't even vaguely support any other style of play.
                        Terrestrial Exalted have a specific design conceit towards tying particular Abilities to particular Elements, and this is still completely wrong. Less elemental variation per Ability does not mean no support whatsoever.

                        But the presumption did not track. Athletics privileges Fire because it's a Fire Aspect Ability, but there will be no Malfeas or Ebon Dragon Caste.

                        Which alternately means that any given Ability will feature multiple Yozi aesthetics and what does it matter if your Azimuth or Penumbra Caste is or is not dipping into only one or into several of them?

                        Actually, that's another way it doesn't really track; I can see a person playing a Fire Aspect wanting more Brawl with fire decals, but why is your Azimuth specifically concerned with the Malfeas look? I should think that having a multifaceted and mutating look to one's magic would be part of the appeal of the Infernal Exalted.

                        Originally posted by JohnDoe244
                        there's no way any reasonable person can look at the content the devs are putting out and think that Infernals will have anything like the scale and remit they had in 2E.
                        Second Edition Infernals never even got decent Charms for Craft or War.

                        I'm going to reiterate that their scale in Second Edition owed a lot to being so convoluted that kind of covering all their bases couldn't even fit in their proper book.

                        And, while it's something I have reservations about, not being tied to writing five separate but somewhat related Charm sets provides latitude for including the imagery of even more Yozis.

                        Originally posted by JohnDoe244
                        And once you abandon the idea of a Scourge and a Slayer fighting differently (or climbing differently, or seducing differently)
                        We've abandoned the idea of Scourges and Slayers at all. Azimuth, three other Castes named after geometric terminology, Penumbra.

                        So there's at least one advantage to not making it so that every Caste is tied to the imagery of a specific Yozi.

                        Do you know something you actually get out of this approach? The Caste that is actually about fighting will be able to have multiple options for how they fight, and the Caste about being sneaky will have multiple options for that... which will still include a means of being very deadly in a manner distinct from the fighting Caste because Infernal sneakiness includes turning into fucking murder wind.

                        Originally posted by JohnDoe244
                        reduce Infernals to expressions of generic mundane Ability, you get Green Solars.
                        Generic mundane Abilities. The goddamn Dragon Blooded have a Ride Charm that lets you cause avalanches and a Presence Charm to turn people to stone.

                        Stealth as a means of turning into the Silent Wind. "Oh no, that sneaky Infernal with the blade of red air around their hand just killed... somebody. Err, darn it, it was right on the tip of my tongue... What are we doing here again?"

                        Originally posted by JohnDoe244
                        I'm sure the Malfeas Melee Charms will keep me alive just as well as Solar ones... no matter what Caste I am. And that's the problem. We prioritize the aesthetics because that's what Infernals are: otherwise you might as well just play Solars.
                        You'll have all of the aesthetics you want for any of the Castes. This is freedom from the need for every member of a given Infernal Caste to look exactly the same.

                        Or hell, play a {whatever the name of the equivalent to Night} Caste with only the Adorjan stuff, if you want. It's not as if Nights are obligated to take every path of the Stealth or Larceny cascades... I presume. You get my point.


                        I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                        Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
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                        • Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                          I can't wait to have my Scourge have to use Malfeas themed Melee Charms and Ebon Dragon themed Archery Charms the same as literally every other Infernal because the trees don't even vaguely support any other style of play.
                          Something about this sentiment didn't quite sit right with me, and it's taken me a moment to put my finger on it.

                          This thing you're complaining about? This doom you're proclaiming for the Green Sun Princes of Third Edition?

                          This is how they functioned in Second Edition. This is how their design was intended to function there. Michael Goodwin designed each of the Yozi sets with large holes that could only be filled by other Yozis!

                          You want to complain about Infernals that don't support alternative play styles, you start with that guy.

                          If your Slayer wanted to have anything to improve their mobility or dodging or being able to flurry attacks, there was no choice but to take Adorjan themed stuff. If your Scourge wanted to tank a hit that got past the dodge for whatever reason, sorry, the only colour that comes in is verdegris brass, and if they didn't want green fire on their weapons then I'm not sure where they were getting their damage adders from.

                          You talked about seduction as one of the things that would be one note? Well, you had the choice between Malfeas' firey crown or some of the Ebon Dragon's manipulation stuff, and that was it. You weren't getting it from Adorjan, that's for sure.

                          The Ebon Dragon also being the one who gave the most direct support for attacking from range.

                          I suppose I can see now why there was such an interest in the whole turning into a Yozi thing, because becoming Malfeas was literally the only way that you were ever getting a Malfeas themed Charm for dodging. We are in fact more likely to get that stuff now than ever, and if we don't, well, what are you missing that you ever had before?

                          I think this might be part of a problem with writing Charms that encourage so much talking and thinking about their grand and portentous implications, people forget what they actually did.

                          We're upset because we're paying attention.
                          Mmhmm.
                          Last edited by Isator Levi; 12-03-2019, 11:46 PM.


                          I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                          Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                          https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                          • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                            I suppose I can see now why there was such an interest in the whole turning into a Yozi thing, because becoming Malfeas was literally the only way that you were ever getting a Malfeas themed Charm for dodging. We are in fact more likely to get that stuff now than ever, and if we don't, well, what are you missing that you ever had before?
                            I really don't think there is any reason to be so patronising or that it is nice, or that it is healthy for the discussion.

                            Several posters tried to explain their reasons why they like Infernals with the potential of turning into Yozis and this one wasn't listed among them. This is definitely not my reason to want that.


                            Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                            Jesus, if you think the books are that badly written then why are you even here?
                            Seriously?
                            Last edited by Lanic; 12-04-2019, 02:48 AM.

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                            • I think part of the reason that Devil Tigers was so appealing was that it was a chance to really establish you were better than everything else. Consider immortality had very few methods of being achieved in 2e. 3rd has a few more methods since you can use workings to give yourself immortality in different ways, but still. Devil tigers were a chance to become as close to immortal as possible since well killing Primordials isn't an easy thing and even the dead ones are still around and kicking. Then there's the bit where your character could become a thing that had never been before since the closest would be a Primordial, however, the origin as a human your mindset doesn't fit theirs. (Remember 2e explicitly had Primordials and Yozi were only able to think in terms of their theme.) Then there's the part where that successful evolution was something none of the other Exalt types could achieve. I mean there are a lot of things that can be achieved by other exalts that are awesome, and cool. Its just none of them could become an entity that surpasses gods and is also a world unto itself. Plus people do like a bit of homebrewing and the lack of restriction on "Become a being above the gods in power" gives you a lot of leeway to build.

                              Granted the other part was how often 2e tended to have the feel that you needed to be above E5 to really get the game playing from how people talk and it makes sense that there would be a level of focus on Infernals towards their late game focus of transcending themselves and their patrons.

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                              • I gotta admit I've all but given up waiting for 3e alchies. At this glacial pace of releases I'll have grandkids before those books come out


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