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  • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

    Person, Karvara means so much less to me than a three-dot daiklave based around a maligned child having finally validated herself through sacrifice to save the lives of others, with a capstone Charm that represents a promise of hope in the form of allowing the wielder to substitute Willpower for health levels in powering the self-sacrifice Evocations.

    You are really appealing to the wrong audience with this "have to admit" line.



    I suspect you'll get less than you want, but for reasons of practical limitations rather than some kind of agenda. Resources are not unlimited and things like the name of the game dictate how they're allocated. At the same time, things that are written are expected to be a framework and inspiration for people with ideas of their own to take further steps.



    I suspect that a write-up of a Primordial that would be to your satisfaction would be rather lengthy in a manner that challenges book assignments and approval. It certainly would be to mine.



    Oh I don't agree with that. I think published Charms in combination with creative storytelling are quite capable of accomplishing that feat, and any other such representation of grappling with stranger forces and enemies.

    The perception of Charms therein is its own separate problem with Second Edition writing, though more in the fiction than actual Charm writing.



    Exactly. Perhaps Exalted Charms with these new structures and aesthetics and themes will not be so castrated as you fear.

    I'll admit that some of this conversation makes me think that some of the points about how so-called cosmic stuff detracting from the prosaic might be a bit exaggerated themselves.
    I've been trying very hard to be civil and give you the benefit of the doubt, but having read your other replies to people where you berated them for daring to have different preferences over a tabletop roleplaying game, I'm not going to put up with your passive aggressive, pedantic, snide insinuations. I've done nothing except try to explain the reasons why I like the things I like, which makes the way you all but spit on me and others for the high crime of thinking Infernals Turning Into Cosmic Beings Is Cool all the worse.

    There isn't much more to say, other than that come the kickstarter I will vote for the change I want to see with my wallet. I didn't come back to this forum to be told I'm having fun wrong.

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    • Originally posted by nalak42 View Post
      I think part of the reason that Devil Tigers was so appealing was that it was a chance to really establish you were better than everything else. Consider immortality had very few methods of being achieved in 2e. 3rd has a few more methods since you can use workings to give yourself immortality in different ways, but still. Devil tigers were a chance to become as close to immortal as possible since well killing Primordials isn't an easy thing and even the dead ones are still around and kicking. Then there's the bit where your character could become a thing that had never been before since the closest would be a Primordial, however, the origin as a human your mindset doesn't fit theirs. (Remember 2e explicitly had Primordials and Yozi were only able to think in terms of their theme.) Then there's the part where that successful evolution was something none of the other Exalt types could achieve. I mean there are a lot of things that can be achieved by other exalts that are awesome, and cool. Its just none of them could become an entity that surpasses gods and is also a world unto itself. Plus people do like a bit of homebrewing and the lack of restriction on "Become a being above the gods in power" gives you a lot of leeway to build.

      Granted the other part was how often 2e tended to have the feel that you needed to be above E5 to really get the game playing from how people talk and it makes sense that there would be a level of focus on Infernals towards their late game focus of transcending themselves and their patrons.
      I remember there was a hearthstone that made you immortal by virtue of holding it, and that the ban on that one true biological immortality mutation for Solars was appended with the idea that the Chosen must seize immortality by their own efforts. I agree with you about how sometimes it did feel like you were in "baby mode" until E6+, I'm just saying that as a massive Infernals fan I don't really see Devil-Tigers as being about being better than everything else because...well, everything is really good in it's own way, has to be to have had won the Primordial war after all. That said I do agree that people also enjoy their homebrewing very much, I just see it as a good thing about the game not a bad thing because it got engaging and, well, was fun.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Ghosthead View Post
        Infernals 2e did suffer from real bad integration of who the Infernals were as heroes and people and the Charmsets that were built to support them, which preceded as separate depictions (former bad, latter well received but possibly with some problems as a part of the whole).

        Who are these people as heroes, what are their relationships and loyalties, what are the cultures they are bound to, what are their ambitions, what action do they engage in within Creation? (I feel after 2e Infernals, I do not really know). Their Charms then need to support whatever these are, whether we're interested in these being cued on Abilities or not. If they are built around telling stories built around human personalities, then Charms must facilitate those or not get in the way; if they are built around some other stories, how and why are we engaged in those, and how do Charms facilitate those, and where do they fit in the setting's genre?

        (I think this is a topic Lioness has broached somewhat before, but I don't want to misquote her).
        Personally, I've always seen Infernals as being highly individualistic but no more individualistic thatn say Solars are. I see them having a lot of parallels in the sense of being people confronted with great obstacles and given vast power to overcome them, save that 1. Infernals started from a more negative position and 2. instead of supernatural arete (and sunlight!) Infernals gained wide scale sorcery-like effects or innate spirit-like attributes (and green light!) as well as a connection to another realm beyond Creation. Insofar as they tell human stories I would say they tell human stories about the Infernal being from whatever background they were, and confronting the issue that as they advance in their innate power it puts a distance between themselves and their human lives. There's an element of Lunars in there too, I think, but instead of being outright outsiders you have someone redefining their relationship with society in the context of them able to affect wide scopes of it with relatively little effort compared even to the other Chosen.

        (I don't know who Lioness is or what she said about this, this is just my opinion and it's OK if you didn't read into the same things. I'm just drawing from my memory of the comics, some of the adventures and iconics-especially Gryfalcon, Sulumor and Manosque Cyan)

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        • Originally posted by Guitar Longcat View Post
          sometimes it did feel like you were in "baby mode" until E6+
          This feels kind of surreal to me. Twice I've seen Essence 5 and lower Solars in 2e slay The Ebon Dragon in a single action, on their own, and a third time where it took two to do it in a single action.

          I'm pretty curious though, where do you take the story once everyone is Autocthon? When entire setting books can be written about each individual character, and there's 4-6 of you who may also have now alien intelligences, while also being far beyond anything else that currently exists in Creation. Not in the way that Solars are where an individual Solar might be the greatest X in the world, but in the way that the entirety of Creation would have to unite together in a single purpose to ever cause concern.

          Is it just that you and the other PCs are the only things that matter in the world so you just play off eachother?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Guitar Longcat View Post

            I remember there was a hearthstone that made you immortal by virtue of holding it, and that the ban on that one true biological immortality mutation for Solars was appended with the idea that the Chosen must seize immortality by their own efforts. I agree with you about how sometimes it did feel like you were in "baby mode" until E6+, I'm just saying that as a massive Infernals fan I don't really see Devil-Tigers as being about being better than everything else because...well, everything is really good in it's own way, has to be to have had won the Primordial war after all. That said I do agree that people also enjoy their homebrewing very much, I just see it as a good thing about the game not a bad thing because it got engaging and, well, was fun.
            Oh I wouldn't say it was a bad thing. Afterall despite all the slack in an Infernals proverbial leash it was still noticeable when it cropped up (mandatory yearly meeting with the prospect of demonic abduction if you weren't showing for example XD ) so the idea that a character running into those restriction would decide they want more freedom is reasonable. No, more I think Devil Tiger is a thing that won't be really covered this edition partially to avoid the risk of needing more focus on the Yozi, but more to avoid drawing focus into the realm of e6+ and potentially opening that box of problems again.

            There might be hints of the Devil Tiger concept though. To my mind it might be more portrayed as like a potential offshoot of some Infernal's projects or an attempt to continue themselves and their abilities even further. A hypothetical would be something like an Infernal who's gotten their Shintai to a state they consider perfect working to enable themselves to stay in their custom god body all the time the way some Lunars are said to choose to remain in a customized body or their warform full time. Or having decided they may draw on the power the architects of reality decides to see how far they can push things to forge their own demons, say go beyond being able to create a being of comparable power to a 2nd circle and forge a true 2nd circle demon from their own will. You know that sort of stuff, cool and hinting at the possibility to go further without explicitly pointing out something that might be viewed as a solid endgame.

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            • Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
              I'm pretty curious though, where do you take the story once everyone is Autocthon? When entire setting books can be written about each individual character, and there's 4-6 of you who may also have now alien intelligences, while also being far beyond anything else that currently exists in Creation. Not in the way that Solars are where an individual Solar might be the greatest X in the world, but in the way that the entirety of Creation would have to unite together in a single purpose to ever cause concern.

              Is it just that you and the other PCs are the only things that matter in the world so you just play off eachother?
              Figuring out which edition of Nobilis your PCs have ascended into?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

                This feels kind of surreal to me. Twice I've seen Essence 5 and lower Solars in 2e slay The Ebon Dragon in a single action, on their own, and a third time where it took two to do it in a single action.

                I'm pretty curious though, where do you take the story once everyone is Autocthon? When entire setting books can be written about each individual character, and there's 4-6 of you who may also have now alien intelligences, while also being far beyond anything else that currently exists in Creation. Not in the way that Solars are where an individual Solar might be the greatest X in the world, but in the way that the entirety of Creation would have to unite together in a single purpose to ever cause concern.

                Is it just that you and the other PCs are the only things that matter in the world so you just play off eachother?
                Ah I think there's been a slight misunderstanding: I was responding to nalak42's point about "from how people talk about it" and just realised it came out as very ridiculous sounding, sorry. I was thinking more about a lot of the ambigious heights of power the fluff, especially Lords/Lands of Creation, sometimes implied awaited the Exalted once they progressed enough sounding more outside the confines of the game than commenting on how that affected gameplay in practice.

                As for where you take the story where everyone is Autocthon well, that's not one I can easily answer because it relied on mechanics that are largely homebrewed in 2e and I do think it depends greatly on individual groups being able to work together well. If I had to hazard a guess though, I'd point to how in Compass: Autocthonia itself Alchemicals eventually progress to a point where you start becoming cities, and use that as a starting point for more exotic world-bodies. Perhaps it'd be like a more complex version of Farming Simulator once you gain Charms that let you affect wide scale weather and other phenomena?

                I'd also point out that realistically going to E10 is a very, very long journey with a lot of stories in between. So I would suspect most groups would focus on the story trying to acclimatise to transitioning with the power structures in Creation up to level. Once it's reached, well...like you said, a single Solar took on the Ebon Dragon. It seems right to me that more than one could lay low a Devil-Tiger, to say nothing of the likelihood of the Deathlords paying attention, or the problems with underestimating Yu-Shan when by default they still hold various degrees of sanctioned mystic supremacy over Creatures of Darkness such as the ambassador to Hell's weaponised word of surrender from the Yozis.

                In summary: Based on my knowledge of the fluff, the hypothetical me and my group would be playing off each other a lot indeed, but it would be a mistake to assume we'd be the only things that matter in the world. Almost as big a mistake as the Primordials made shortly before the Primordial War, in fact. Since only the PCs would likely bother to write up DT charmsets I suspect in "game time" only they would get to be DTs, and so they'd be far more outnumbered than the Primordials were before their loss.

                This is all appended by the fact that even I'd have to admit we lack the mechanical structures and experience to model this playstyle in practice. And I freely admit, I'm mostly just spitballing here beacuse it's hard to justify a game you've never played.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by nalak42 View Post

                  Figuring out which edition of Nobilis your PCs have ascended into?
                  I don't know if this is meant to be sarcastic, so apologies in advance if it was but I find the mental image of Nobilis-level characters and Devil-Tigers playing with each other hilarious.

                  "I create a new Creation!"
                  "I wish that an even bigger Creation was Created!"
                  "Nu-uh, my Creation's originality is protected by the Charm Constrictive Singularity of Design!"
                  "Nu-uh, I use the World-Breaker's Hand to turn it to dust!"
                  "Nu-uh, I perfectly defend it!"
                  "Then I use the World-Breaker's Hand on the concept of perfection!"
                  "Then my pal Rayzil the Thousand Winged Onslaught jumps perfectly and unexpectedly you for 1000 Agg with her chaos talons!"
                  "Dammit, I'm disappearing into my safe place! I tag in my buddy Jormil the Knave of Hearts, and he uses Mythos Complementation to become your grandpa! You just hurt your grandpa's feelings!"

                  Anyway jokes aside I do have to admit it's tricky trying to figure out what a game would even look like at that level. Ultimately, I just think it's a question worth investing in.

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                  • So what would those interactions entail when each player has a world body with endless landscapes, populated by cities and creatures of all sorts and entire massive soul hierarchies of demons? Let's say, for example, that a circle of Solars and their allies tries to fight one of your PCs, what does that look like in actual play? It's almost like a reversal where one PC is the Storyteller while the ST plays a circle of player characters trying to find all the ways to attack her soul hierarchy and go on epic adventures to dismantle and expose parts of their world.

                    The idea is intriguing, but it also has to be workable for a large number of players. Moreover, why not just do that but in a system and setting that's already set to do it right from the start, instead of it onto a really complex system and setting designed for epic fantasy intrigue and action?

                    Edit: for example, you CAN take Warhammer Fantasy Battles, the tabletop wargame, and try to turn it into an Olympian intrigue game, where divine beings lounge around in Heaven playing politics with each other, but good god why not just start with something that at least has social game mechanics in it already.
                    Last edited by DrLoveMonkey; 12-04-2019, 04:00 AM.

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                    • Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
                      So what would those interactions entail when each player has a world body with endless landscapes, populated by cities and creatures of all sorts and entire massive soul hierarchies of demons? Let's say, for example, that a circle of Solars and their allies tries to fight one of your PCs, what does that look like in actual play? It's almost like a reversal where one PC is the Storyteller while the ST plays a circle of player characters trying to find all the ways to attack her soul hierarchy and go on epic adventures to dismantle and expose parts of their world.

                      The idea is intriguing, but it also has to be workable for a large number of players. Moreover, why not just do that but in a system and setting that's already set to do it right from the start, instead of it onto a really complex system and setting designed for epic fantasy intrigue and action?
                      Hmm. It is challenging to, again, defend mechanics I haven't seen written out so it's difficult to say. But if I had to guess-and stressing this is, again, a guess?

                      I'd think realistically people would spare the same amount of detail on their world-bodies and cultures and devas and demon hierarchies as committed players in other games would for their characters' backstories. I would suppose many of their interactions would be framed as environmental damage or large scale Wyld-Shaping Techniquesque effects similar to what the Hand of the Maker is capable of in Lords of Creation but with more exotic and likely potent results. Or heck, since I remember Infernal Charms were compared to feats of sorcery in Manual: Infernals...why not work backwards from that angle, and designate Sorcery spell-like effects to model wide scale interactions? Or indeed, the Sorcerous Working model used by 3e. I suspect that circle of Solars would likely fight in mass combat due to the sheer number of demons or if you had a weird Shintai that made you an army/part of someone else's army somehow effectively, but I would also suspect the storyteller would be able to make effective use out of Solar charms to target the players' Imperfections or relative immobility.

                      I do hope such an idea would prove workable, which I cannot prove or disprove. But I think it does belong in this setting simply because it's a significant part of the lore, it leaves a lasting impression on a lot of people interested in Exalted and it's something I think a lot of people would enjoy!
                      Last edited by Guitar Longcat; 12-04-2019, 04:02 AM. Reason: Just thought of something else

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                      • Originally posted by Guitar Longcat View Post

                        I don't know if this is meant to be sarcastic, so apologies in advance if it was but I find the mental image of Nobilis-level characters and Devil-Tigers playing with each other hilarious.

                        "I create a new Creation!"
                        "I wish that an even bigger Creation was Created!"
                        "Nu-uh, my Creation's originality is protected by the Charm Constrictive Singularity of Design!"
                        "Nu-uh, I use the World-Breaker's Hand to turn it to dust!"
                        "Nu-uh, I perfectly defend it!"
                        "Then I use the World-Breaker's Hand on the concept of perfection!"
                        "Then my pal Rayzil the Thousand Winged Onslaught jumps perfectly and unexpectedly you for 1000 Agg with her chaos talons!"
                        "Dammit, I'm disappearing into my safe place! I tag in my buddy Jormil the Knave of Hearts, and he uses Mythos Complementation to become your grandpa! You just hurt your grandpa's feelings!"

                        Anyway jokes aside I do have to admit it's tricky trying to figure out what a game would even look like at that level. Ultimately, I just think it's a question worth investing in.
                        Oh no issues. Nobilis is a fun game when one is in the mood (or can figure out character creation.) Though I admit I prefer Chuubo to Nobilis just because the angle I've always approached it from.

                        "In Exalted you have world-shaking power and are off to use power that scares gods to make the world better. Chuubo you have world-shaking power and your goal for today is getting ice cream because 'F*ck yes ice cream!'" Being in the mood is important, but fun is always the important part in these games. :3

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                        • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                          Here's a question:

                          Why are Stealth Charms based on transforming into an invisible blind murder wind that causes the people it slays to be erased from memory, in addition to custom-built shintais, not transhumanism?

                          I'm gonna set aside my own antipathy for that philosophy for a while to interrogate the sentiment this particular premise that people are attached to is not one that the initial proof of concept does not allow.

                          I think Holden only mentioned it once, but there's also a strong mechanical reason to overhaul the Infernal Charms, and it's because as they were written at the start you got cascades that had to cover so much ground that it literally could not fit in the book, and still didn't exactly offer much variety in character builds or progression. It would have been like that even with full access to all of six published Yozis, but it was also a design that incentivized you to stick to your Caste and Favoured ones by locking most Charms behind the Excellency, and making the Excellency something you had to purchase as many times as you had Essence levels.

                          That was before 2.5, when they started to realise that the design pivoted really heavily on cheap perfect defences, without which it ended up as a form of Charm cloud ala First Edition Lunars.

                          So why is them being Abilities assumed to mean they can't ultimately touch the same basic themes and aesthetics, and is that a reason that can still be mechanically cohesive? Because I assume people want it to be, and that they don't prioritize the statement made by Malfeas defensive Charms over whether they can effectively keep your character alive.

                          Also keeping in mind that a detachment from Abilities was always a bit superficial, since they were still the crux of your dice cap and you still needed to have dice pools to use a lot of those Charms.
                          Good question. I suppose what I like are the Yozi Excellencies and the unique style of the Infernal Charms. There's a thematic consistency which trumps the negatives of being 'trapped' in Charm clouds associated with only two Yozis.

                          I wouldn't mind Ability-based Charms, per se, so long as they don't lose the stylistic niches the Charms currently have. My ideal solution would probably be that you could buy a wider set of Ability-based Charms that list different 'flavours' depending on which Primordial is your sponsor. E.g., the Melee Charms have an Adorjan version and a Malfeas version, both of which are subtly different in their effects and in the changes they inflict on the Infernal. You could still retain Yozi-themed Excellencies, I think (they don't literally have to be the same Charms the Primordials use, but they should feel connected to them somehow). You could possibly also have a very small group of Yozi-themed Charms (one tree of five key Charms or so) that sprout from each Yozi's Excellency and shape your character.

                          The main point being that Infernal Charms just ooze (pun intended) demonic style at present, where the Solar Ability-based Charms that compare don't have the same richness. I also really like how, as you progress deeper into a cascade, it literally begins to warp you to become more like your infernal masters. But there's still scope there for nuance, even between two Scourges.

                          All of that is possible in 3e. But I just want to register my opinion on it to make it more likely it'll happen.

                          I hope that makes sense?
                          Last edited by adambeyoncelowe; 12-04-2019, 04:31 AM.

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                          • Originally posted by Guitar Longcat View Post
                            I do hope such an idea would prove workable, which I cannot prove or disprove. But I think it does belong in this setting simply because it's a significant part of the lore, it leaves a lasting impression on a lot of people interested in Exalted and it's something I think a lot of people would enjoy!
                            What if there were just rules/guidelines for primordials, and maybe the implication that if you really wanted to you could play as a group of emergent Titans coming out of the Wyld to toy with Creation? That way Infernals don't become, by a thousand miles, the most powerful and important Exalted in the setting, and it leaves it to the ST if they want to include things like groups of new Primordials popping up?

                            The mechanics for playing as primordials would have to be so incredibly low resolution that it might as well just be a totally different system.
                            Last edited by DrLoveMonkey; 12-04-2019, 04:12 AM.

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                            • Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

                              What if there were just rules/guidelines for primordials, and maybe the implication that if you really wanted to you could play as a group of emergent Titans coming out of the Wyld to toy with Creation? That way Infernals don't become, by a thousand miles, the most powerful and important Exalted in the setting, and it leaves it to the ST if they want to include things like groups of new Primordials popping up?

                              The mechanics for playing as primordials would have to be so incredibly low resolution that it might as well just be a totally different system.
                              I dunno. It's really hard to guage hypotheticals-and they are all hypothetical in the end, y'know? By the same token I could ask how XP gain would work for transcendent gestalt-minds that arise as an emergent property of shinmaic interactions from the chaos before time. What I don't think is that the mechanics would be so "far out" as to be untouchable by the other splats, because in the end, the Solars did win the Primordial War. It's difficult to trim it down into an analogy, but I'd put it like how having Solar Circle Sorcery and Wyld Cauldron Technique in either edition doesn't mean you automatically win all confrontations.

                              Like you said it takes one really good Solar at E5 to cleave the Ebon Dragon in a single action, on his own. It would be remiss to suggest Sidereals, the Realm as a whole or for all the jokes about their jobbing Lunars wouldn't be able to stand up to them as well-especially since I remember someone running a fight between the Scarlet Empress and the Ebon Dragon which Her Redness was handily winning.

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                              • As for breadth of Charms, I get that. That's the fairest comment of all: the five/six Yozi trees do have to cover a lot of ground. I like that but I do see the flaws in burying complementary Charms in trees you wouldn't otherwise invest in.

                                I would probably tweak that by requiring (possibly even mandating) that you only have/need one Excellency, and that you don't need, say, Cecylene's Excellency to learn later Charms in that tree if you're currently a Scourge with a Malfean Urge who has the First Adorjani Excellency.

                                Since Infernal Excellencies are so broad, I think requiring those exalts to have multiple Excellencies breaks the game anyway. Just say they can only have one, and that's it. It'll flavour their later Charms and that's fine, but making them buy multiple Excellencies multiple times is overkill. Each Excellency is broad enough that you'd be able to find a way to use it with most Charm trees anyway.

                                I'd also remove Yozi Excellencies as Prerequisite Charms in most cases. Those Prerequisites could be something else or not exist for the first Charm in a tree. That would make it easier to learn Charms outside your two patron/favoured trees.

                                Finally, I realised I skipped over your point about Shintais in my last post. That's something I do like. It was more the thematic presentation of Infernals as 'fallen Solars' from the original pitch which turned me cold. Shintais are definitely cool, and I suppose that's one way to hammer home the slow transformation from one thing to another.

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