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  • I don’t think that 3e’s infernals necessarily are “bad/first age solars” as much as, according to the ask dev threads, representing the thematic of being wronged/cast down and seeking vengeance.

    It’s honestly an interesting narrative space, because it allows multiple different story beginnings and means to achieve one’s ends. Are you a character in the vein of the Count of Monte Cristo or are you a John Wick? Do you develop as time goes on from being motivated by vengence alone to a greater cause or do you become a person who just wants to see the world burn?

    On the subject of transhumanism and The infernal’s transformation, it’s important to note that essence 6+ charms will not exceed the raw power of essence 5 charms, but are now tailored to the individual exalt as an expressed refinement of their particular essence. While this does mean that becoming a primordial in one’s own right may not be in the cards there are ways to still play to those themes. Additionally, one thing that has been clear both with the original 3e devs and the current one’s is a belief that the human element is central to the narrative of exalted. This is a complication for those who want transhumanism, because at some level it believes we can move beyond our humanity. I think that those hoping for becoming non-human or a better human through this means may be setting up themselves for failure.

    That being said, all hope is not lost atleast expressing elements of what some loved about 2e infernals in 3e. One only has to look at ephemeral induction technique to imagine how the ability to create additional soul expressions of themselves for instance.

    I guess what I am trying to say is if one hopes to divorce the human element from the exalt, that is very likely not to be in the cards. However, if you hope to have some of the same powers/abilities there is potential there.

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    • Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
      I think it's fine as a sub-theme, but it's not, well, Infernal-y enough to be a big thing about them. I mean, drawing the connections between them and their First-Age Solar lives seems more, well, Solar, to me.
      I don't think framing 3rd edition Solars as having mental tugs of war with the intact personality of their previous incarnations would be good for them.

      Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz
      I mean, I enjoyed their 2e merit of Past Lives, but like many things with 2e Infernals, while all the individual bits were cool they didn't really go together very well.
      It was one of the few parts of Infernals that did anything with them having corrupted Solar essences aside from caste layouts and some anima powers. Then again I've gotten the impression in previous discussions like this that some Infernal fans would rather forget the 50 Green Sun Princes and play some newly minted Yozi Exalted.


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      • Originally posted by Lioness View Post
        I don't think decadent First Age Solars would've been a bad place for Infernals to go. The All-Thing Infernal was obviously based on the Solar Deliberative and Green Sun Princes had an interesting relationship with their past lives that sometimes allowed the personalities of their previous incarnations to take centre stage.
        I can't really see that many parallels between the All-Thing Infernal and the Solar Deliberative. One is an unquestionable bastion of dominance over Creation, as much a society as a governing body. One is a command centre for independant and relatively* improverished agents operating in a different dimension whose authority is unrecognised by Creation; for all the talk about Infernal neutrality in the greater scheme of things it's worth noting Fiend diplomatic privilege did not extend to Yu-Shan, something no Solar would have tolerated. To be honest in my experience I never saw Infernals more to do with their past lives than, say, Abyssals did, and I think it's limiting for the kind of stories people may want to tell for more well-intentioned, esoteric or pragmatic Infernals.

        *I feel like I've been using this word a lot in this thread, it just seems worth pointing out that even though you can start the game with very high Resource values the First Age resources are explicitly bigger than the ones in the Age of Sorrows
        Last edited by Guitar Longcat; 12-04-2019, 07:15 PM. Reason: Clarification

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        • Originally posted by Lioness View Post
          I don't think framing 3rd edition Solars as having mental tugs of war with the intact personality of their previous incarnations would be good for them.


          It was one of the few parts of Infernals that did anything with them having corrupted Solar essences aside from caste layouts and some anima powers. Then again I've gotten the impression in previous discussions like this that some Infernal fans would rather forget the 50 Green Sun Princes and play some newly minted Yozi Exalted.
          To me the thing is, in my experience with games at least, the Exalts best able to portray and explore depictions of the depravity of the First Age due to their close connections with their Past Lives and their investment in decadent opulence are the Solar Exalted simply because they're far, far less changed by their transformation to the person originally hosting the Exaltation than an Infernal. I remember one of our players was actually crueller out of Limit Break than in it while staying completely in character due to a profoundly utilitarian philosophy.

          Experiences like that make me think the open-ended nature of playing a Solar is one of the strengths of the splat, given there is nothing stopping you from playing a gentleman thief or a heroic flying luchadore either. Just as Abyssals, being harbingers of death, were left an out to move away from being "harbigners of death" and nothing but in their own corebook, I don't see the pigeonholing of Infernals as First Age louches makes any sense when one of the biggest changes going forward in 3e is they don't seem to have a unified mission such as the Reclaimation.

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          • For all it serves, I definitely don't enjoy the whole "Infernals represent the depravities of the First Age Solars" mostly because... that's for Solars to do anyway, and not even all or most of them, just those the concept fits. Infernals as hell-dwelling rockstar world-changing agents of revenge towards those who wronged them does feel like a better starting point to me, and it's pretty much the same base as Abyssals being underworld-dwelling gothic world-changing agents of death.

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            • Originally posted by Guitar Longcat View Post
              I can't really see that many parallels between the All-Thing Infernal and the Solar Deliberative. One is an unquestionable bastion of dominance over Creation, as much a society as a governing body. One is a command centre for independant and relatively* improverished agents operating in a different dimension whose authority is unrecognised by Creation; for all the talk about Infernal neutrality in the greater scheme of things it's worth noting Fiend diplomatic privilege did not extend to Yu-Shan, something no Solar would have tolerated.
              The-All Thing observed equivilents of the Calibration Feast and the Banquet of all Peers. It's true that there are differences from the Solar Deliberative that stem from the fact they haven't conqured the world and forced the gods to heel, yet.

              Originally posted by Guitar Longcat
              To be honest in my experience I never saw Infernals more to do with their past lives than, say, Abyssals did, and I think it's limiting for the kind of stories people may want to tell for more well-intentioned, esoteric or pragmatic Infernals.
              I don't see how it has to be particularly limiting absent hack writing. It's useful to have a prevaling culture of the other 49~ Infernal Exalted so you can decide where yours stands in relation to everyone else. It's like how Ex3 changed the Silver Pact, so that rather than trying to be all things to all Lunars its got objectives that your Lunar may not agree with.


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              • Originally posted by Alistair View Post
                For all it serves, I definitely don't enjoy the whole "Infernals represent the depravities of the First Age Solars" mostly because... that's for Solars to do anyway, and not even all or most of them, just those the concept fits. Infernals as hell-dwelling rockstar world-changing agents of revenge towards those who wronged them does feel like a better starting point to me, and it's pretty much the same base as Abyssals being underworld-dwelling gothic world-changing agents of death.
                Okay but what are the conotations of the word "rockstar" in this context?



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                • Aesthetics, mostly? Same with the gothic part of Abyssal. No real meaning besides "feel" and not that important to me compared to the rest.

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                  • Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post

                    You've said it yourself: you could ignore these things. If I want to play the Reclamation, you can bet I'll blow things up. If I don't, why would I need to be tied to the 'epic titanomachy setting'? The point is being able to have the choice.

                    An RPG setting isn't like a video game. There isn't just one story you have to follow. The settings are designed to let you tell a variety of different stories. Furthermore, why should one person's choices about a facet of the game they're never going to engage with stop me using that facet myself?

                    (Also, I don't recognise the same game you do. That's a strength of the setting, I guess, but I don't play Exalted to play Saving Private Ryan.)

                    Depending on who you ask, climate change is *the* most pressing issue for our world right now--and you can bet many people are ignoring that.
                    You don't understand.

                    The Yozis getting free isn't climate change. It's an asteroid wiping out all of civilization kind of issue. It's not something subtle and slow enough to ignore, it's a "the Silent Wind is currently slaying the entire South, methodically" kind of thing.

                    Secondly, yes, you can ignore many things, but then you lose one of the things that I, personally, find valuable about Exalted - that it was laid down by someone who thought real hard about things like sociology, and the current edition was done by people who have followed in that footsteps (see how Seeing Like A State is cited for visualizing the Realm, for example) and so it hangs together in a way other settings do not, because things occur in a way that can be justified quite well by pointing to the evidence of how people act in comparable situations in reality.

                    That's not a common thing, believe it or not; most settings you get vague handwaves at best. Why do all these D&D settings have convenient underground complexes full of monsters and treasure, anyway?

                    So, no, "Just ignore it" isn't something I find appealing. And the Saving Private Ryan crack shows you still don't get it. No, I don't play Exalted to play the mooks in the beach battle scene, either. But I do value that Creation is a world where that is what most people experience, because that highlights the extraordinary and supernatural all the more.

                    If you disagree, hey, that is actually perfectly fine. No, seriously. But I hope the game line does not become written by people who think as you do.

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                    • Some really good points all-round. I guess, ultimately, I don't want Infernals to be primarily defined by who or what the Solars are (or were). I want them to be their own thing. 'Fallen Solars' or thereabouts as a concept is definitely not their own thing and holds absolutely zero interest for me.

                      Yes, they have stolen/corrupted Exaltations, but for me therein lies the beginnings of transformation--something unique, even if forged from something else. It's that determination to change and become something else that I'm drawn to. Maybe it's fair to say that this is more 'Yozi Exalted' rather than 'Green Sun Princes', and I'm okay with that.

                      It's also possible 3e Infernals will be awesome. Mechanically, there seems to be a lot of agreement between those of us who like 2e Infernals and those of us who don't. That gives me hope, so I won't focus on mechanics in this post. I think we've done that now.

                      So why do I like the Infernals? Well, the setting already has a problem in centring Solars for me. They're a bit like Ultramarines in WH40K: a bit too 'this is all about us'; a bit too 'we're the heroes'; a bit too 'uber-mensch'. That's entirely IMO and YMMV, but I can't get my head past that. Exalted as a game never appealed to me until MoEP: Infernals... So for me the stakes feel high, because I wouldn't be interested in playing the game any more if there isn't a way for me to play the characters I like.

                      I like the Infernals because they're the outcasts, outsiders, minority--as far as demigods go, that is. I like that they carve out their own, perhaps even perverse by Solar standards, niche and operate on their own terms. No matter how much I read about the Solars, I can't identify with them. But the Infernals? Yes.

                      They're dangerous. They're monstrous. They break the rules. They're not Solars+ (or Solars-). But also, on some level, I think they're sort of right. The Primordials made the universe, then created minions to keep things running, only to find themselves usurped and eventually imprisoned by those minions. (When I read this essay, 'Why the Yozis are Right (And You Should Suffer and Obey For All Eternity)', I was pleased that others had viewed them in the same way.)

                      I'll be buying Infernals 3e either way, and likely mashing them up with 2e/2.5e to make them work the way I want. But yeah, the above is why *I personally* like Infernals the way I do.
                      Last edited by adambeyoncelowe; 12-06-2019, 06:15 AM.

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                      • Originally posted by Alistair View Post
                        Aesthetics, mostly? Same with the gothic part of Abyssal. No real meaning besides "feel" and not that important to me compared to the rest.
                        Can you give some examples?


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                        • Originally posted by Lioness View Post
                          The-All Thing observed equivilents of the Calibration Feast and the Banquet of all Peers. It's true that there are differences from the Solar Deliberative that stem from the fact they haven't conqured the world and forced the gods to heel, yet.

                          I don't see how it has to be particularly limiting absent hack writing. It's useful to have a prevaling culture of the other 49~ Infernal Exalted so you can decide where yours stands in relation to everyone else. It's like how Ex3 changed the Silver Pact, so that rather than trying to be all things to all Lunars its got objectives that your Lunar may not agree with.
                          I-hmm, I'm not actually sure and correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't those aspects of the Thing Infernal deliberately copied from First Age society? I understand that approached well it doesn't have to be particularly limiting, and my caution comes from caution about execution more than concept given how blunt the "natural language" style of writing can be. I take the Silver Pact as an improvement in the sense of having a coherent ideology you can actually disagree with, but I'm not sure at all how to picture a prevailing culture for 3e Infernals. They strike me as highly individualised and independant given how the Reclaimation is no longer there as a unifying mission, and the Yozis appealing to self-interest.

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                          • Originally posted by Guitar Longcat View Post
                            I-hmm, I'm not actually sure and correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't those aspects of the Thing Infernal deliberately copied from First Age society?
                            There's no statement that they did it deliberately, but the Calibration Feast isn't some obscure historical trivia that's survived to the present day by being observed by Dragon-Blooded sorcerers that was when the Usurpation happened.

                            Originally posted by Guitar Longcat
                            I understand that approached well it doesn't have to be particularly limiting, and my caution comes from caution about execution more than concept given how blunt the "natural language" style of writing can be. I take the Silver Pact as an improvement in the sense of having a coherent ideology you can actually disagree with, but I'm not sure at all how to picture a prevailing culture for 3e Infernals. They strike me as highly individualised and independant given how the Reclaimation is no longer there as a unifying mission, and the Yozis appealing to self-interest.
                            Problem is highly individualised and independent describes the modern Solar Exalted really well. I know a lot of people who played 2e Infernals like Green Solars who'd immediately cut all ties with Malfeas about five minutes after Exalting but I see it as a questionable default state.
                            Last edited by Lioness; 12-05-2019, 10:27 AM.


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                            • Originally posted by Aliasi View Post

                              You don't understand.

                              The Yozis getting free isn't climate change. It's an asteroid wiping out all of civilization kind of issue. It's not something subtle and slow enough to ignore, it's a "the Silent Wind is currently slaying the entire South, methodically" kind of thing.

                              Secondly, yes, you can ignore many things, but then you lose one of the things that I, personally, find valuable about Exalted - that it was laid down by someone who thought real hard about things like sociology, and the current edition was done by people who have followed in that footsteps (see how Seeing Like A State is cited for visualizing the Realm, for example) and so it hangs together in a way other settings do not, because things occur in a way that can be justified quite well by pointing to the evidence of how people act in comparable situations in reality.

                              That's not a common thing, believe it or not; most settings you get vague handwaves at best. Why do all these D&D settings have convenient underground complexes full of monsters and treasure, anyway?

                              So, no, "Just ignore it" isn't something I find appealing. And the Saving Private Ryan crack shows you still don't get it. No, I don't play Exalted to play the mooks in the beach battle scene, either. But I do value that Creation is a world where that is what most people experience, because that highlights the extraordinary and supernatural all the more.

                              If you disagree, hey, that is actually perfectly fine. No, seriously. But I hope the game line does not become written by people who think as you do.
                              Yes. But also no.

                              Nothing, repeat nothing, about the Reclamation suggests it's happening in the next year. Or decade. Or century.

                              Infernals are built to last a couple of hundred years then die of old age, which suggests that's how long the Reclaimation is going to take. With the caveat that the Reclaimation is specifically impossible, and put on a difficulty par of overthrowing the Primordials in the first place.

                              So, sure, if the Silent Wind has escaped (something which doesn't even happen in RotSE -- the campaign supplement for the Yozi escaping), you do have to drop everything and go deal with it. But the Silent Wind isn't going to escape at any point in the next hundred years barring ST fiat.

                              And it's really no worse than Sol unleashing the Kukla or the Sids building a new Jade prison. Yes, if it happens then it's absolutely story defining... but it's not going to happen.


                              Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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                              • Originally posted by Lioness View Post
                                There's no statement that they did it deliberately, but the Calibration Feast isn't some obscure historical trivia that's survived to the present day by being observed by Dragon-Blooded sorcerers that was when the Usurpation happened.


                                Problem is highly individualised and independent describes the modern Solar Exalted really well. I know a lot of people who played 2e Infernals like Green Solars who'd immediately cut all ties with Malfeas about five minutes after Exalting but I see it as a questionable default state.
                                It does indeed and well, that's kind of my point? I don't think there is a "prevailing culture" for Solars in either edition, and I've never heard any objections to it as a default state. Based on what I know of how 3e Infernals will be different, I don't see there being any need for them to have one any more than Solars do. Unlike Abyssals they aren't committed to an overarching goal and unlike Sidereals they aren't attached to a regulatory body.

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