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  • #91
    Originally posted by Dragonmystic View Post

    That's good to hear. I hope that does turn this around and speeds up the release pace.
    As was said more parallel production is happening for supplements, but in terms of hardbacks for each Exalted type that is unlikely to change from 1 a year (already a massive positive turn around from the dark days before Vance and Minton took the helm), as Vance and Minton overseeing those themselves is key to consistent quality and mechanics there.


    Check out my expansion to the Realm of Brass and Shadow

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    • #92
      Originally posted by Dragonmystic View Post


      White Wolf/OPP isn't an indie developer. Hiring additional people/increasing the budget would probably be a sound investment, in my opinion.
      White Wolf is an imprint with strong name recognition from before the industry crash in the early 00s. There was a Paradox subsidiary that recently bore that name, but it is unclear to the extent to which it still exists at all.

      Onyx Path is a tiny company with no larger corporate owner with razor thin margins. By the standards of this industry it is stable, but is absolutely “indie” by the standards of the 90s comparing it to the heyday of classic White Wolf. That isn’t a fair standard given the industry today of course - WotC is enjoying a Critical Roll and Stranger Things fueled boom, but that hasn’t extended outside of D&D. The rest of the industry while recovering from the lowest slump of the height of WoW in the mid 00s, is nowhere near where it was in the 90s, and there is a reason overall production is centered on pdf releases and work is overwhelmingly freelance.


      Check out my expansion to the Realm of Brass and Shadow

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      • #93
        Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
        For antagonists I'm not sure how useful having the full books even is that much. The QC antagonists are just way easier to run, they have a nice little power boost by not being penalized for making decisive attacks and often times their charms are just like the ones printed in the books except a little stronger, so their straightforward strength helps make up for their lack of complex power. Not fully, of course, QCs are always going to be a bit weaker, but it's worth taking so much load off the ST.

        It's really just for mixed games, or games for unreleased splats that the books have a huge impact I think. I've played in five or six campaigns with just the corebook and it barely felt lacking at all for those games, although I am looking forward to Heirs to the Shogunate to help round out my upcoming DB campaign.
        Honestly, I found that a)5 DBs (3 of them monks) was not nearly enough QCs, and b)they were way too weak. Possibly the Core's antagonists were fine for Essence 1-2 games, but they weren't much good for the Essence 4-5 game I was running.


        I run... Lunars: The Apocalypse! Exalted 3rd edition. Fimbulwinter is upon the world as an Ice Age begins, and only six young Lunar heroes have a chance of saving humanity.

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        • #94
          Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post

          Honestly, I found that a)5 DBs (3 of them monks) was not nearly enough QCs, and b)they were way too weak. Possibly the Core's antagonists were fine for Essence 1-2 games, but they weren't much good for the Essence 4-5 game I was running.
          Oh yeah, E4-E5 I can see there being a problem. To be honest I had some problems at E3 as well but I think some of that may have had to do with inexperience with the system and failure to use it to its full potential.

          For the bad cases I did find myself using Solar/Abyssal/infernal antagonists, although solars butt heads with those all the time so it didn’t really feel contrived. It was hard though, unless I was copying something I’d seen a PC do extensively before, coming up with a big high Essence antagonist, learning all the intricacies of their charmset, and using it properly ended up really taxing. When you’re already planning adventures and coming up with NPC intimacies and figuring out how they’ll all react to the PCs and thinking up puzzles it’s a lot of work even with the book. I think what we need is just some truly insanely powerful QCs. I can understand the reluctance, different people have different expectations of the game and what PCs should be like, and also putting a lot of effort in for the very top end of the game only might not feel worth it.

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          • #95
            Yeah, I agree. I ended up using a circle of Solars (well, 5 Solars, 2 Lunars and 1 Liminal), because that was what charms were available. And Supernal meant I could use Essence 3-4 Solars who could still be a challenge (but a beatable one) to 6 Essence 5 Solars.

            But an Essence 3-4 Solar, while a fine challenge for PCs, is quite awkward, because 30 charms is a lot to pick and then keep track of, especially for a Dawn or Night (Twilights are easier to keep track of, since they're not using all of them at once; if it's a Crafter, for example, you just give the group some artefacts and don't worry. If it's a sorcerer, they'll probably cast 2-3 spells in a fight max).

            Stuff like Octavian and Ahlat are much easier to run, since they're a challenge for Solars but have less charms to keep track of. I'd like more of that. Hundred Devils and Adversaries have helped, with the giant volcano monster and Makarios, but I'd really like more.
            Some Essence 4-5 Dragonblood would be great (ones that are a bit simpler, but just as balanced, as ones using the normal rules), as would some Third-Circle Demons.


            I'm now running a much lower essence Lunars game (they've just reached E2), so this is less of a problem now, but my friends who run essence 4-5 games still have to outsource the NPCs (ie get players to each made one E4 dragonblood and then run them in a fight) as it's so much work. And then, well, they're not actually a very difficult challenge for E5 Solars. The Night Caste beat his evil Abyssal brother in 2 rounds, 2 seperate PCs were ambushed by Wyld Hunts and got away without much difficulty (one lost a demon).
            There's just not much that can challenge an E5 Solar (well, other than their own stupidity).

            This isn't always a problem (I mean, E5 Solars are supposed to be some of the most powerful things in the setting), but to have a fun game, you need to give them some challenge.


            I run... Lunars: The Apocalypse! Exalted 3rd edition. Fimbulwinter is upon the world as an Ice Age begins, and only six young Lunar heroes have a chance of saving humanity.

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            • #96
              Part of your issue might also be having 8 PCs. If you run a fight that’s like, Alhat, two of his super charged spirit aurochs, a battlegroup of Brides, the Bride’s commander and a high Essence Immaculate that Alhat has wrangled onto his side you now have 14 people in the initiative track, and that’s just not feasible. Not to mention the PCs still outnumber the antagonists by an extra third and are much more powerful than most involved. Run that same fight against 3-4 PCs and the tables will turn drastically.

              Part of the problem with really powerful QCs might be how much character strength relies on system mastery, and how varied characters and group sizes can be. If you publish a third circle demon that’s appropriate for eight Essence 5 Solars who really know what they’re doing that puts it really off limits to a lot of groups.

              You might have to do it like Tiamat in DnD, who’s technically beatable by a 4 person party, I think, but it’s functionally impossible. She’s inhumanly smart, ruthless, and unbelievably powerful. In the campaign she shows up in though there are a bunch of side adventures you can do which take away a lot of her powers and make her much easier to fight. That’s probably the best way to do it. So you can have this big thing with 100 health levels, who freely and reflexively clashes any attack against it with its full pool, who’s got 28 soak and 15 hardness with legendary size and octavians power to not fill more than one group of health levels at a time, but then there’s ways to deactivate those and make it possible.

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              • #97
                Yeah I must admit I'm impressed every time you describe your tables Wizard of Oz I would never be able to handle tables this size

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                • #98
                  Exigents being next will probably help in a few respects.


                  I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                  Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                  https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                  • #99
                    6 PCs. It was 8 NPCs on the enemy side. They tended not to fight all at once though, it was generally 2-3 enemy Solars/Lunars/Liminal vs 2-5 PCs.
                    But when each of those 2-3 enemy NPCs have 30 charms... it's just a ton of planning, and then awkward to remember them all in the heat of battle.
                    I mean, I didn't find it impossible, just awkward.
                    What would have been impossible of course, would have been running an Essence 5 game with primary antagonists other than Solars or Second-Circle Demons (there's Ahlat of course, but I don't think it's easy to make him the only primary antagonist.)

                    Nowadays, I tend to write out the NPCs in a way that makes them easy for me to run in the game, and since it's all DBs, there's a lot of copy-paste which reduces prep times (ie giving 3 the same basic melee charms). So that works. But then, this is for Essence 2 DBs with about 6-7 pertinent charms (I assume they also have 10 charms for doing paperwork, enjoying parties, sending coded messages, playing music, and that these don't need to come up). Quite different from a Solar Night Caste Assassin with 15 combat charms and 10 stealth charms.

                    But anyway, getting back to the main point, it is now possible to use Essence 5 Dragonblood, even if a circle of them is pretty awkward, but when I was running a Solar game, there just wasn't the resources to make it feasible.
                    Last edited by The Wizard of Oz; 11-08-2019, 12:34 PM.


                    I run... Lunars: The Apocalypse! Exalted 3rd edition. Fimbulwinter is upon the world as an Ice Age begins, and only six young Lunar heroes have a chance of saving humanity.

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                    • Originally posted by Chausse View Post
                      Yeah I must admit I'm impressed every time you describe your tables Wizard of Oz I would never be able to handle tables this size
                      I'll be honest, I'm finding my new game way easier to run (and thus more enjoyable). I have 6 players, but inevitably 1-2 can't come so the game is 4-5 at a time. They stay together most of the time, the PCs generally get on, they're Essence 2 which makes the game simpler, there are no sorcerers so I never have to adjudicate Workings, etc, etc.


                      I run... Lunars: The Apocalypse! Exalted 3rd edition. Fimbulwinter is upon the world as an Ice Age begins, and only six young Lunar heroes have a chance of saving humanity.

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                      • Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                        Onyx Path is a business. Consumers don't owe them loyalty.
                        I don't think consumer loyalty is the issue. A bit of empathy and redirect for appropriate boundaries is.


                        I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                        Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                        https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                        • That was kind of my point with the "don't shout at the waiter/waitress" analogy. If you feel there's a problem with the gameline, you can say it calmly, you can stop playing, but not shout at or insult the writers.


                          I run... Lunars: The Apocalypse! Exalted 3rd edition. Fimbulwinter is upon the world as an Ice Age begins, and only six young Lunar heroes have a chance of saving humanity.

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                          • I wonder if it might be better to focus more on the lower Essence/lower power where the game tends to be easier and more interesting, or if that would just end up a vicious cycle where nobody likes playing at the high end because there’s no easily ran content, and thus there’s no demand for it so none of that kind of content gets produced.

                            I’m also not personally familiar with high Essence Solar, or even DB or Lunar games, in third edition. From what you’ve seen Wizard, would that also be really hard to run?

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                            • Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
                              I wonder if it might be better to focus more on the lower Essence/lower power where the game tends to be easier and more interesting, or if that would just end up a vicious cycle where nobody likes playing at the high end because there’s no easily ran content, and thus there’s no demand for it so none of that kind of content gets produced.
                              Having seen a variety of levels of 3rd edition played/run (I guess everything from 0xp to 475xp), I think that there's (now, maybe not when the game is released) plenty of material for low-level games. The only problem is that the Core Book (and previous editions) mention Sidereals, Liminals, Getimians, Abyssals, etc, and you might go "wow, that's really cool, I want to use it!" and it's pretty limited. But if you're happy with Solars, Lunars, Dragonblood, Sorcerers, Demons, Elementals, some Gods and a variety of wacky monsters, it's fine (now).

                              Whereas at high levels, there's less available, and if you want to use Solars/Dragonblood/Lunars you have to do a lot of prep work.

                              So, from my perspective, I would like to see the remaining Adversaries of the Righteous and Hundred Devils Night Parade focus on high-level challenges.

                              I’m also not personally familiar with high Essence Solar, or even DB or Lunar games, in third edition. From what you’ve seen Wizard, would that also be really hard to run?
                              Much easier now than it was.

                              Of the three, I think high-level Dragonblood is the easiest to run, since you can challenge the group with low-level Anathema; for a circle of Essence 5 Dragonblood, a circle of E1-2 Solars is a tough encounter, but it's not one that's very hard for the ST to make.

                              As to Solar and Lunar games... well, there's all sorts of factors. Who are your main antagonists, what kind of campaign is it (social or combat-heavy?), etc.


                              I run... Lunars: The Apocalypse! Exalted 3rd edition. Fimbulwinter is upon the world as an Ice Age begins, and only six young Lunar heroes have a chance of saving humanity.

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                              • The Exalted killed and cast down the most powerful beings in existence.

                                The "high end" of Exalted has never been about "bigger numbers", it's supposed to be about what you do with your power now victory is assured, assymetric warfare, heroic sacrifice, attrition encounters and fixing the world on a global, nay dimensional scale.

                                Like the opening battle in Thor: Dark World. Everyone is struggling against an endless tide of evil, then Thor (the Solar) rolls up, routs the army, kills the undefeated champion in a single swing of his hammer then goes away to brood on how he is different from his companions and on the love he has lost and the family he has hurt. Now, yes, he eventually has a couple of battles with Dr. Who (an Abyssal) on a roughly even pegging where he struggles against such a mighty foe... but for the most part, Thor hilariously outclasses all opposition to him, breezing through the deadly warriors that have slaughted his allies as if they were made of tissue paper.

                                You can always challenge the Exalted with more Exalted. Or wave after wave of lesser challenges. But the majority of high-end sessions shouldn't be a challenge. They should be the invincible monstrousities that even gods fear just absolutely face-rolling n00bs by the kingdom in an unstoppable juggernaut of awesome, underpinned by poignant moments of humanity, laughter and loss.
                                Last edited by JohnDoe244; 11-08-2019, 02:53 PM.


                                Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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