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  • Movement. Um... how?

    I just ran my first Exalted 3e game. It generally went very well... but combat movement was something of a sticking point. I thought I understood Range Bands as roughly analogous to Zones in Fate-- dividing the battlefield into abstract areas within which exact positioning was unimportant. The once/round reflexive movement action made sense; Disengage made sense; weapon ranges made sense... but Rush kind of didn't. And what's more, I didn't see any way for characters to move multiple range bands in a direction that wasn't towards an enemy. At one point a character wanted to run from the siege weapons they'd set up on the hill outside of town (one range band/zone), through the town square (another range band/zone), and get inside the inn (a third range band/zone). I allowed it at the cost of their combat action for the turn, but... was that right? Was that supposed to be impossible? How do you keep track of this stuff when there are lots of characters on the battlefield?

  • #2
    Would that be a Dex+Atheltics roll, difficulty how difficult the journey was (enemies, rough terrain, obstructions, with a bonus for charms or a relevant mount) and how possible it was to get there in the space of pne rpund by sprinting without taking other actions? Opposed rolls if someone was chasing them / trying to get close enough to get into combat range.

    Combat movement rolls represent opponents dodging and weaving around one another. If there is nobody actively engaged with the player, surely those actions aren't necessary?


    .

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    • #3
      Okay, so, Exalted movement is a really complex but ultimately pretty balanced system to movement. Unlike DnD where an archer who’s a bit faster than a melee fighter can pretty well just endlessly kite as long as terrain permits*, exalted movement is designed so that archers who want to keep away always get the chance to do so, and rushing fighters who want to get in close always get a chance to do so as well.

      It’s why you need to aim from medium range, and aim can’t be combined with movement of any kind. It’s also the reason that only with powerful charms can you move multiple range bands in a turn. The basic idea is like this:


      Disengage is used when you’re in close to get away and still fight. If you disengage successfully you’re rewarded with at least one turn where you get to attack from range. The thing is, if you disengage with somebody and then they use their reflexive move on their turn to follow you, you don’t get that turn, they just close back in. to ensure you get it, if somebody follows you then you get to move back again, fleeing them.

      The rush is the opposite of that. Winning a rush instead ensures that the rusher will get their next turn in close combat, if they want to. It doesn’t move you right away because then somebody fleeing with a disengage might win their disengage and then just get immediately rushed and lose the advantage of their successful disengage. So instead the rush maneuver just makes sure that you’re going to stay at short range no matter what until your next turn, upon which you can move in and close the distance again.

      As soon as you start introducing double moves into the system a lot of it falls apart.

      Also as an aside, range bands are kind of like zones, but it’s worth while to also determine what kind of terrain and stuff separates those zones. For example difficult terrain will take two turns to move through, and it may be possible that neither the area you’re moving to, or from, is difficult terrain, but might be separated by fortifications or climbing a ladder or something.



      *which due to DnD dungeon style maps is way less a problem than it sounds.

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      • #4
        Rush lets you move two range bands (one Reflexively, one as your combat action when the other party moves away). So as long as you're not running toward or away from an opponent, I don't think it's unbalanced to trade a combat action to move another range band.

        I certainly wouldn't let them move THREE range bands. And if you're going towards a fleeing or away from a pursuing opponent then that's clearly unbalanced. But crossing scenery to get stuck in to the action quicker is firmly hand-wavium territory. If you can sprint two range bands towards an archer you can sprint two range bands towards a tavern.

        Keeping track, I've been using a notepad and battlemap (holla at the good people who make Battle Systems Terrain -- that stuff is amazing). Poker chips to track Essence and Willpower, D10s (one on a Carcasson scoreboard and dozens in multicolored popcorn bowls) to track Initiative. There's a lot to keep track of.
        Last edited by JohnDoe244; 11-18-2019, 02:59 PM.


        Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
          Rush lets you move two range bands (one Reflexively, one as your combat action). So as long as you're not running toward or away from an opponent, I don't think it's unbalanced to trade a combat action to move another range band.

          I certainly wouldn't let them move THREE range bands. And if you're going towards a fleeing or away from a pursuing opponent then that's clearly unbalanced. But crossing scenery to get stuck in to the action quicker is firmly hand-wavium territory. If you can sprint two range bands towards an archer you can sprint two range bands towards a tavern.

          Keeping track, I've been using a notepad and battlemap (holla at the good people who make Battle Systems Terrain -- that stuff is amazing). Poker chips to track Essence and Willpower, D10s (one on a Carcasson scoreboard and dozens in multicolored popcorn bowls) to track Initiative. There's a lot to keep track of.
          I might be mistaken but I'm pretty sure Rush doesn't make you move 2 range bands. It makes you move the next time the opponent you rush moves, and that's all. You can use your normal movement action to move a second time though.

          Btw, what happened if you rush someone while you are already engaged to someone else ? Can you ? Must you disengage first ?


          My homebrew (Leave comments if you want to help improve) : A quick recap of all the pools and stats for Quick Exalted 3E characters

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Chausse View Post

            I might be mistaken but I'm pretty sure Rush doesn't make you move 2 range bands. It makes you move the next time the opponent you rush moves, and that's all. You can use your normal movement action to move a second time though.
            Right. Which is moving twice.

            Btw, what happened if you rush someone while you are already engaged to someone else ? Can you ? Must you disengage first ?
            The devs clarified that you only can't use the Reflexive Move (movement action) when embattled, so I guess Rushing works?

            I really don't know about this one. Charms which move you, just move you. No need to Disengage. Rush... I really don't know.

            [Edit]

            Nope, right the first time. Rush away: http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...29#post1073429
            Last edited by JohnDoe244; 11-18-2019, 06:30 PM.


            Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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            • #7
              Yeah, Rush is only for chasing people who are running away.
              It doesn't work for trying to run really fast towards someone standing still. Or towards scenery.


              I play...
              Kovan, actor, librarian, sorcerer, great bear, Lunar Elder from the First Age
              Thutmose-Osiris, seventh son of a seventh son, descendant of the Supreme Deity Sukhmet, renegade demigod and bearer of the Ghoul-Banishing Bow. Also bright green.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                Yeah, Rush is only for chasing people who are running away.
                It doesn't work for trying to run really fast towards someone standing still. Or towards scenery.
                For someone standing still is a balance concern, DrLoveMonkey has already laid that out in full.

                Running really fast towards scenery... so long as you're not trying to cheese the system, this is explicitly a house rule and not RAW, I don't see the issue with double moving. Not canon, absolutely. But it doesn't break anything.


                Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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                • #9
                  Outside of combat that kind of thing should just be a roll or an extended roll, then again outside of combat you often don’t use range bands. Moving twice in a single turn isn’t in and of itself imbalanced. For a lot of cases though it really changes the dynamic. For instance charging a fortification covered with archers SHOULD allow for at least one turn where you’re at short range and they can freely shoot you before you close in. Normally if you’re at medium range they can aim at you, and then the best you can do is close into short where they get to shoot you with their aim bonus, and then you can leap in, but they do get that shot. As long as you’re moving between range bands where ranged/melee fighters don’t really care it should be okay.

                  Also there’s one other type of movement that hasn’t been mentioned, and that’s the Withdraw action, which also lets you move twice in a turn in order to escape from combat. Which is an extended roll that costs 10i per round.

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                  • #10
                    (A common mistake is that rush/disengage/withdraw lets you move twice in a turn. It doesn't. It could let you move twice in a round, but one of those movement actions is outside of your turn. There's no way to use normal movement actions to move two range bands on your turn. Your reflexive movement cannot be combined with another movement unless specifically stated. It's specifically stated in the Rush action because the reflexive movement is necessary to close in on the enemy (you need to move reflexively from medium to short to activate the rush, but you're still at short for the duration of the round---the rush only makes you maintain the short distance from your target ... if you start out at short, you don't need to rush because you can reflexively move into close, hence the necessity of the reflexive move), but the Rush action cannot actually take you into close range of someone. It allows for a secondary move on your opponent's turn in order to maintain distance so that you can close the distance on your following turn. It's a bit difficult to explain.)

                    I made this a couple of weeks ago. Maybe it can offer some help.

                    https://youtu.be/Vgc-3LNznd4
                    Last edited by Ekorren; 11-18-2019, 04:51 PM.


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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Grod_the_giant View Post
                      At one point a character wanted to run from the siege weapons they'd set up on the hill outside of town (one range band/zone), through the town square (another range band/zone), and get inside the inn (a third range band/zone).
                      I think this might be part of where thinking about Range Bands like Zones might be tripping you up.

                      In Fate, Zones each represent a distinct narrative space within the scene. Moving from one Zone to another Zone matters, regardless of the relative location of other characters.

                      Range Bands aren't distinct spaces, just relative measures of distance.

                      So, lets say an attacker is outside in the yard of a house, and their target is on the first floor of the house, and wants to get up to the second floor of the house because they have a weapon up there.

                      In Fate, "Front Yard, "1st Floor," and "2nd Floor" are all Zones. The attacker in the Front Yard, is in a Zone adjacent to both of the other Zones, so attacking suffers the same issues (needs to have an attack that can cross one Zone, and can attack at someone despite walls), the target is moving Zones to take advantage of an Aspect upstairs.

                      In Exalted, all of this is just happening at Short Range. The characters are too far apart for hand-to-hand combat, but if the attacker wanted to move into the house to be within close-combat range, they could do so relatively easily. The target running upstairs for a weapon isn't changing bands, because they're not changing the relative distance between themselves and their attacker.

                      So something like moving from the town square into the inn would definitely be changing Zones in Fate, but probably not changing Range Bands in Exalted (if you decided it was necessary, it would most likely be a Take Cover action from the sound of it though that could get waived since you don't really need to actively duck if you're inside a building and such).

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                      • #12
                        So I don't know OPs scenario. But I picture something like this.

                        The PCs want to defend a town. At the top of the town, on a hill are siege engines. The siege engines are at Long range from the enemy army on the plains, firing down at them. PC-1 is with the siege engines, co-ordinating the barrage.

                        The enemy army double moving towards the siege engines is utter cheese and should not be allowed (absent Charms).

                        Roughly the same distance away, down the hill, across the town and in an inn, PC-2 is drawing up battleplans when suddenly a traitor sets off explosives, setting the inn on fire and trying to kill PC-2. The traitor and PC-2 aren't running away, they're staying in the burning building until one of them is dead.

                        PC-1 is at Long range from the enemy army, and Long range in the opposite direction from PC-2. PC-1 is sees the explosion and wants to help PC-2.

                        How many turns does PC-1 have to sit and watch for until they get to play Exalted?

                        RAW? 2. The move down the hill. Turn over. They move across the square. Turn over. They move into the building and can now play.

                        Now let's say there's a second traitor, also at the catapult, let's call him Dash. PC-1 can Disengage from Dash. Dash wants to slow PC-1 down, so he opposes the Disengage with his Dex+Athletics vs PC-1's Dex+Dodge. PC-1 wins and moves down the hill. Dash follows, and PC-1 Reflexively moves across town. Round over. Second turn PC-1 Moves into the inn and can take part in the fight. Getting there a full turn earlier than if he did not have to contend with someone actively trying to slow him down.

                        That's nuts. You shouldn't move at double speed if you have an enemy trying to slow you down. And your turn should be more interesting than "I move. Again. And nothing happens. Again. I take no Action. Again."

                        Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                        So something like moving from the town square into the inn would definitely be changing Zones in Fate, but probably not changing Range Bands in Exalted (if you decided it was necessary, it would most likely be a Take Cover action from the sound of it though that could get waived since you don't really need to actively duck if you're inside a building and such).
                        If I'm in the town square and you're in an inn, I don't think I could hit you with a sword unless I moved into the inn.

                        Otherwise I agree with you.
                        Last edited by JohnDoe244; 11-18-2019, 06:15 PM.


                        Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                          Right. Which is moving twice.

                          The devs clarified that you only can't use the Reflexive Move (movement action) when embattled, so I guess Rushing works?
                          Yeah I guess I was confused because I felt your first post implied that is is the Rush action that let you move twice, so I wanted to clarify Rush lets you move only once, and then you have to use your own Move action (reflexive) to move again.


                          My homebrew (Leave comments if you want to help improve) : A quick recap of all the pools and stats for Quick Exalted 3E characters

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                            If I'm in the town square and you're in an inn, I don't think I could hit you with a sword unless I moved into the inn.
                            Well, Range Bands are relative. My point was to moving away from a static ranged opponent.

                            That said, this is Exalted, ducking into an inn doesn't mean I can't try to slash through the wall to hit you. Going into the inn is mostly dealing with the Cover rules rather than range bands, assuming moving from the square to the inn is being done via reflexive moves.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Chausse View Post

                              Yeah I guess I was confused because I felt your first post implied that is is the Rush action that let you move twice, so I wanted to clarify Rush lets you move only once, and then you have to use your own Move action (reflexive) to move again.
                              I've editted to be more clear that Rush doesn't move you twice.

                              Rushing out of embattled is kinda weird though. Especially looking at the Deeb Charmset. So I've editted that too.

                              [Edit]

                              Nope, right the first time. Rush away: http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...29#post1073429
                              Last edited by JohnDoe244; 11-18-2019, 06:30 PM.


                              Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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