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  • Nightingale was a Backer-selected MA, and killing with music as ntoed was never really a Solar thing in 1e or 2e save Demon-Wracking Shout or talking about yelling so hard things explode. Which you get a bit of in Presence with the anti-CoD auras. There may have been more support for it, but I think it was generally a matter that no one thought that that was an especially Solar theme to do or worry about. It's kind of clear from the Charms that Morke was thinking about like...Performance itself more than going too oddball there.

    The one that I think was more an issue was that there's not as much flame weapon support in Archery as could be due to Righteous Devil, which I would say is a more justifiable issue.


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    • Originally posted by Bastet View Post
      How the bard archetype is split between Solar Performance and Silver-Voiced Nightingale.
      It is not intuative from the corebook alone why this seperation exists and why Solars seem to require a martial art or evocations to kill with music.
      What does this have to do with “unspoken design theses”?

      It’s supposed to be weird for any Performance Charms to allow for lethal attacks, not weird that Solars are the only ones who have none.


      Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

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      • Originally posted by Blaque View Post

        The one that I think was more an issue was that there's not as much flame weapon support in Archery as could be due to Righteous Devil, which I would say is a more justifiable issue.
        Which is really just one example of the greater problem with the division between Martial Arts and everything else.


        Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

        My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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        • Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post

          Which is really just one example of the greater problem with the division between Martial Arts and everything else.
          The devs have talked about how they did try to tie MAs with the four other Abilities, but it led to weirdness in implementation, though. I actually am not against hte current setup. MAs lets you dip into an exotic fighting style that your native Charmset might not do due to their tendnacy to be more straight-forward, or they give optiosn with wepaons you normally wouldn't. And due to hteir shared nature, you can do things out of your Exalt type entirelyr eally.

          It's only really a problem with Solar Charms and at times just a weird thing where we have a lot of them (which I like) but often too many on some things (we don't need that many Charms buffing boat speed or breaking the Sail system more-er) and missing stuff on others (Occult for stuff besides spirits, some meta-sorcery stuff, or in this case, yell-so-hard-eardrums-explode Charms)

          These ultimately boil down to I think at times focused-but-on-the-wrong-things Charm design in the Solar Charmset, rather than anything to do with MAs. Hell, most hte MAs weren't written by John Morke anyhow, but were written by Robert Vance.


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          • This was an actual question that someone I know asked their group.

            A player who backed the Kickstater could have explained that Nightingale was a legacy MA that people voted to come back by popular demand.
            A player with experience of previous editions could have explained that using your music to kill and maim people is more appropriate to Abyssals.
            Even the potentially prickly explaination that Exalted is not a dungeon crawler and that "how do I kill things with this skill!" is a narrow way of looking at things.

            Instead they got a rant about Holden not listening to people and more questions than answers. Obviously these people were dealing with their own issues and should not have been trying to initiate a new player, but the thought process made me realise how much this new edition of Exalted expects veterans of previous editions to nod sagely and go "ah it is the wisdom of the developers".
            Last edited by Bastet; 12-30-2019, 04:31 PM.

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            • Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post

              Which is really just one example of the greater problem with the division between Martial Arts and everything else.
              That, or that a lot of flame weapons should be in Brawl or Melee instead of Archery.

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              • Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

                That, or that a lot of flame weapons should be in Brawl or Melee instead of Archery.
                I don’t understand your logic.


                Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

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                • Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post

                  I don’t understand your logic.
                  Flame weapons tended to have such short ranges that you effectively were in close combat when you got to use them, and the Storyteller system has a history of utilizing Brawl to shoot guns in a fistfight (also to exhale fire). Blazing Solar Bolt and other ranged Melee attack Charms also shared the flame weapon characteristic of "this range is an absolute maximum and not an increment". It also allows crossbows to slide into the place of the range weapon to use if you didn't pick up high Strength, while the flame weapons get to be an alternate for low-Strength characters in Melee, which could provide a bit of thematic breathing room, even given the limited quantity of shots for flame weapons.

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                  • Originally posted by Steamfunk View Post

                    Jenna has a ride or die fandom. Worth five regular Exalted fans in a fight, easily.
                    Yeah, it's unique in that unlike every other instance of lynchmob fans I've encountered before, or since Jenna never seems to have used her influence irresponsibly to have caused this.


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                    • Hmm... I think a lot of Jenna's genius probably was over venerated in hindsight (in the sense that despite successes, there are more unforeseen consequences, and too much veneration and hero worship means you don't fix those quickly enough), but I far prefer her fanboys to... a certain set of her extreme fandom detractors, who often seem to be on the verge of calling 'pretentious' anything slightly challenging, creative or unconventional (even her writing style!), and out to build themselves up by "felling the giant" or "announcing the Emperor is naked" and so forth.

                      (On a tangent, actually makes think the only Ex fan I ever recall claiming Ex:The Fair Folk was *simple* was Shreyas Sampat (fourwillowsweeping) and that Jenna's writing there was both straightforward and yet punishing (as was completely proper) to readers who did not read both literally and in order, and who assumed redundancy in text, and that this was a wonderful quality in writing. Which was an unusual stance. Guy isn't active in the fandom any more, so I assume this isn't pushing into a PA.)

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                      • Originally posted by Ghosthead View Post
                        (On a tangent, actually makes think the only Ex fan I ever recall claiming Ex:The Fair Folk was *simple* was Shreyas Sampat (fourwillowsweeping) and that Jenna's writing there was both straightforward and yet punishing (as was completely proper) to readers who did not read both literally and in order, and who assumed redundancy in text, and that this was a wonderful quality in writing. Which was an unusual stance. Guy isn't active in the fandom any more, so I assume this isn't pushing into a PA.)
                        Yeah, we've... unfortunately crossed paths.



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                        • I’ve found Moran’s stuff really intriguing and almost impossible to actually implement in a game.

                          It’s like if there was an RPG where the players each play as a memory, a person’s first kiss, the time they had the chicken pox, their graduation ceremony, ect. It’d be interesting, if I could ever actually figure out how to make it work. Unfortunately sitting behind the DM screen changes a lot about what you need for the game.

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                          • Wasn’t part of the problem with Second Edition Raksha that Moran was part of the second wave team on the project after the first team failed to deliver the desired product, or am I thinking of First Edition?

                            The instructions were to avoid “Euro Fae” but the writers delivered “Euro Fae”, so the second wave replaced all European terms with Arabic and Indian terms to give it an Eastern/Middle-Eastern aesthetic.


                            Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

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                            • That was First Edition. The problem with Second Edition is that they largely rehashed First Edition without knowing the context for why it was the way it was.

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                              • Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                                Wasn’t part of the problem with Second Edition Raksha that Moran was part of the second wave team on the project after the first team failed to deliver the desired product, or am I thinking of First Edition?
                                First Edition. She didn't write anything from the 2e book. This is actually a bit of the issues too since hwile Shaping Combat is interesting, I think it mainly didn't completley implode in taht she's a skilled writer who at least coud make it read well. 2e went with more or less assuming the 2e version, including flaws fo the 1e one where writers went rogue and GCG and Jenna were patching things, was as-intended. Plus often reading some fo the subtler bits of her stuff and taking htem to weird conclusions. (Nirguna doesn't exist, so her aspect Advaita Iraivan doesn'te exist...except then it became crucial to the foundaitno of the universe for-real-actually in 2e.)

                                2e went in assuming the issues with 1e was they weren't clear enough, not that really in the end, Shaping to some extent was just not a good base system to use. Plus over-emphasis on the shinma compared to the 1e take, which were not clear to like...be real. And Jenna had just better purple prose, which made teh shinma interesting. Just read the 1e and 2e Dharma descriptions osmetime to show that:

                                Originally posted by "Graceful Wicked Masques[/quote
                                The shinma Dharma perhaps epitomizes why the nature of the Fair Folk is so impenetrable to the people of Creation. Dharma simultaneously represents desire and apathy, resilience and decay, ignorance and omniscience. To the raksha, concepts such as desire and apathy are not merely descriptions of specific motives for action—they are pinpoints on a multi-dimensional graph that encompasses the entire spectrum of all possible imperatives for action. As Thief of Words so wisely said: “As the progenitor of corruption, Dharma is, himself, pure; as the definition of ignorance, he is, himself all-knowing; as the forerunner of every desire, he is, himself, free of hunger.” ...
                                Originally posted by "Exalted: the Fair Folk
                                The shinma Dharma defines corrosion, ignorance and desire. Dharma is the mad addictions and cravings that subvert the nature of the raksha. As the progenitor of corruption, Dharma is, himself, pure; as the definition of ignorance, he is, himself, all-knowing; as the forerunner of every desire, he is, himself, free of hunger. Thus, Dharma is, in all ways, righteous, self-sacrificing and wise. He is the pillar of perfect devotion that upholds a cosmos tainted by his own existence. ...
                                Both say a bit more on raksha and Dharma, but I do think that, one has a lot more like, impact that does a bit to make it more paletteable, even if I think ultiamtely Shaping as a whole had problmes.

                                Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                                The instructions were to avoid “Euro Fae” but the writers delivered “Euro Fae”, so the second wave replaced all European terms with Arabic and Indian terms to give it an Eastern/Middle-Eastern aesthetic.
                                Moslty Hindu and some Persian actually. And yeah, that was the 1e book. Including "Thief of Words wasn't in the original outline" I think.


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