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  • They do it fine, yes, but there's still room for streamlining. For one, I fully expect EE to have significantly simplified antagonists, even compared to quick characters in EX3, because that's a recurring property of lightweight systems (though not the lightest ones). Just look at, again, Scion, or the "quick Horrors" of the nWoD, or the diceless threats in Powered by the Apocalypse. Simplifying battlegroups down further to a single paragraph of special properties is a natural step following that.

    Now, simplified antagonists and simplified battlegroup properties are, strictly speaking, enough. The system could just allow PCs to have a pet entity, but this means more actors in combat and rules to fulfill the fantasy of being a commander, both which will take extra time.
    For a specific example, I have a Night Caste with a War investment. Whenever I roll her hundred-something Kenyan yakuza into battle, it means I'll be spending most of my turns making rolls so that they can make separate, bigger rolls. It's not unsatisfying, but it could stand to be sped up for a simpler system.

    Scion does it by treating your murderous katamari as an extension of the character – living equipment, more complex than the equivalent antagonist option but aimed at being as quick to use and resolve as any other roll. Broken Worlds (built off PbtA, above) is even simpler, applying the same group tag to the PC-with-mooks as to enemy armies. Recent DnD releases see PC pet options use the same rules as all other system entities, but with their range of actions limited by opportunity costs for the player – for example, your pet can only make an attack if you spend an action to command it, but this requires no roll on the player's part.
    Last edited by The MG; 01-03-2020, 04:26 PM.

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    • Originally posted by The MG View Post
      They do it fine, yes, but there's still room for streamlining. For one, I fully expect EE to have significantly simplified antagonists, even compared to quick characters in EX3, because that's a recurring property of lightweight systems (thoughnot the lightest ones). Just look at, again,Scion, or the "quick Horrors" of the nWoD, or the diceless threats in Powered by the Apocalypse. Simplifying battlegroups down further to a single paragraph of special properties is a natural step following that.

      Now, simplified antagonists and simplified battlegroup properties are, strictly speaking, enough. The system could just allow PCs to have a pet entity, but this means more actors in combat and rules to fulfill the fantasy of being a commander, both which will take extra time.
      For a specific example, I have a Night Caste with a War investment. Whenever I roll her hundred-something Kenyan yakuza into battle, it means I'll be spending most of my turns making rolls so that they can make separate, bigger rolls. It's not unsatisfying, but it could stand to be sped up for a simpler system.

      Scion does it by treating your murderous katamari as an extension of the character – living equipment, more complex than the equivalent antagonist option but aimed at being as quick to use and resolve as any other roll. Broken Worlds (built off PbtA, above) is even simpler, applying the same group tag to the PC-with-mooks as to enemy armies. Recent DnD releases see PC pet options use the same rules as all other system entities, but with their range of actions limited by opportunity costs for the player – for example, your pet can only make an attack if you spend an action to command it, but this requires no roll on the player's part.
      Thank you ! I'd even appreciate if these rules were somewhat compatible with the existing Ex3 core !


      My homebrew (Leave comments if you want to help improve) : A quick recap of all the pools and stats for Quick Exalted 3E characters

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      • Returning to the question of how necessary motes are, consider the Blood Ape.

        It has 45 motes left over if it materializes right before a fight.

        Combat generally lasts no more than five rounds at most, and a blood ape should get combat respiration, so if it lasts that long it can get about 25 motes back in total. Roughly 60 motes.

        But its most useful and powerful Charms either cost Willpower or can only be used once per fight without fulfilling a reset condition. And none of them can be used together in the same turn, so timing becomes a valuable resource as well.

        So what is the point of its motes?

        If it avoids spending Willpower, it’s effectively never going to run out of motes. When was the last time you ran into a blood ape (or anything) when it was tapped out on motes?

        What if it only had as many motes as Willpower points, and spent those few motes in the place of Willpower points for its stronger Charms? Leaving its Willpower alone for resisting social influence?


        Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

        My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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        • I ran the Storm Serpent from Hundred Devils against one of my PCs last session; it was spending like 15 motes a round, basically using all its combat charms, and by the time it fled, badly injured... it still had like 60 motes left.
          Does seem pretty pointless.


          I run... Lunars: The Apocalypse! Exalted 3rd edition. Fimbulwinter is upon the world as an Ice Age begins, and only six young Lunar heroes have a chance of saving humanity.

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          • Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
            So what is the point of its motes?

            If it avoids spending Willpower, it’s effectively never going to run out of motes. When was the last time you ran into a blood ape (or anything) when it was tapped out on motes?

            What if it only had as many motes as Willpower points, and spent those few motes in the place of Willpower points for its stronger Charms? Leaving its Willpower alone for resisting social influence?
            Even crazier idea: Why should spirits even have mote pools? Gate their bigger abilities behind WP costs or resets and they instantly become different instead of just Exalts with unique charms.

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            • Originally posted by vwllss trnt prncss View Post

              Even crazier idea: Why should spirits even have mote pools? Gate their bigger abilities behind WP costs or resets and they instantly become different instead of just Exalts with unique charms.
              That's definitely one way to simplify NPCs, and I would approve.

              It would also be interesting if it prevented spirits from using artifacts. When was the last time we saw a spirit with an artifact that wasn't actually part of the god somehow?


              But aside from limiting players from walking around draped in every artifact they've ever looted from a corpse, why do Exalted need motes either?


              Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

              My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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              • Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                When was the last time we saw a spirit with an artifact that wasn't actually part of the god somehow?
                There's only really two exceptions that come to mind and they've got good reasons.
                Sunipa- she's the war goddess of the east she's a far better reflection of warfare in the Scavenger Lands so she's got a few bits of magitech rather than a divine panopoly that's a reflection of who she is. Her predecessor Darunla the wolf goddess, was I assume geared more towards warfare among forests.
                Ninegala- a forge goddess whose ability to wield weapons is determined by the amount of work she put into making it.


                Onyx Path Forum Moderator
                Please spare a thought for updating the Exalted wiki.

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                • Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                  That's definitely one way to simplify NPCs, and I would approve.

                  It would also be interesting if it prevented spirits from using artifacts. When was the last time we saw a spirit with an artifact that wasn't actually part of the god somehow?


                  But aside from limiting players from walking around draped in every artifact they've ever looted from a corpse, why do Exalted need motes either?
                  Well it’s not just artifacts, you want to limit players from being able to activate every charm they have all day every day.

                  You could swap charms over to having willpower costs but you’d lose a bit of the fine control that you have now. Like Peony Blossom isn’t worth one of your 10 charm activations that day. You could scrap the idea of small charms and just have each charm be super powerful, which might work since in my experience most players tend to play Exalted like they’re trying to spend their whole pool in as few actions as possible, as long as they’re somewhere safe to show anima. You’d miss out on the ability to turn up he heat only a touch though.

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                  • I'm not sure motes not running out before an opponent loses is as conclusive of evidence as it sounds.

                    After all, a complaint about 2e was "motes as hit-points," where beating opponents generally didn't happen until they ran out of motes to spent. This was seen as, in general, a bad thing that just dragged combat out with bother lack of progress outside of mote efficiency.

                    So the idea that a spirit might run away while it still has plenty of motes seems like a good thing to me. It means Ex3 combat isn't overly focused on mote attrition.

                    I'm not convinced that "the fight shouldn't be over until the losing side is close to zero motes," is a good design ideal to focus on.

                    Now, I still agree that motes are something to look at reducing in terms of numbers and complexity, but I would focus on making things easier for play rather than more abstract considerations like that.

                    If motes were dropped completely... it seems like there's still a lot you would have to do (or also cut?). How do you know when anima increases? How do you make sure Charm activation costs match their effects without some more granularity than dumping motes completely would entail?

                    I'm not really sure there's a good way to cut without making other things more complex in return, where simplifying but keeping motes (and reducing the numbers) seems more effective.

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                    • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                      If motes were dropped completely... it seems like there's still a lot you would have to do (or also cut?). How do you know when anima increases? How do you make sure Charm activation costs match their effects without some more granularity than dumping motes completely would entail?
                      Just spitballing here, but...
                      Every round, everyone gets one "flare". That is, at any point they do a thing (attack, parry, persuade, etc) they can raise their Anima a level. Then give every charm an Anima prereq. Or make effects scale based on Anima, or something to make the fight start at low intensity and ramp up as people go blonde.


                      Alternatively, bring back Charm Activations. You get Anima+1 per instant. Want more? You're flaring!
                      Not as elegant and harder to balance, but does prevent "OK, let me look up these seven charms I'm applying here".

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                      • The point I was making Heavy Arms is that for many spirits motes are mostly irrelevant extra book-keeping, because if they use every charm they can they're still going to win or lose a fight to Exalts way quicker than they run out of motes.

                        It's not really the same for Exalts.

                        Perhaps this is an area where things used 99% as NPCs (spirits, Raksha, etc) don't have to work the same as things often used as PCs (Exalts).

                        I'll also say it's relevant that "motes" are staying for Essence... Though of course they may be quite different.


                        I run... Lunars: The Apocalypse! Exalted 3rd edition. Fimbulwinter is upon the world as an Ice Age begins, and only six young Lunar heroes have a chance of saving humanity.

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                        • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                          How do you know when anima increases?
                          Make increasing (but not decreasing) anima flare entirely voluntary to the player/character, and have your most powerful Charms require a minimum level of flare.

                          Most Stealth and Disguise Charms only work at Dim anima level, some Celestial Exalted combat Charms require you to at least have your Caste Mark shining, and your mightiest Charms demand that you be at bonfire.

                          That would definitely make playing Dragon-Blooded less annoying. If bonfire is entirely voluntary, you can never accidentally lock yourself out of out-of-Aspect Auras. Certain Charms can be gated behind anima levels as well as specific Auras, which still rewards a Dragon-Blood for going full bonfire and locking themselves into Charms of their Aspect's element.


                          Spending anima can still remain in this framework, if you can only voluntarily raise your anima one level each round, because lowering your Anima to pay for one Charm could lock you out of other Charms that demanded that much anima flare.


                          Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

                          My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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                          • I certainly think Quck Characters could've been done 'better' in the alternative universe where the Ex3 corebook had support for all exalt types. The ones we've got have an air of compromise around them which makes them more useful for homebrewers but nowhere near as steamlined as they could be.



                            Onyx Path Forum Moderator
                            Please spare a thought for updating the Exalted wiki.

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                            • Originally posted by Lioness View Post
                              I certainly think Quck Characters could've been done 'better' in the alternative universe where the Ex3 corebook had support for all exalt types. The ones we've got have an air of compromise around them which makes them more useful for homebrewers but nowhere near as steamlined as they could be.
                              Can you elaborate on this?

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                              • I think mote pools/charms could've been expressed in a way that'd be easier for a Storyteller to field (for example) a group of Dragon-Blooded against their players without risking bookkeeping hell.

                                However, the antagonists section was also being used as a window to Exalt types they weren't going to get to for years (even if things had been on shedule) so expressing them in a way that couldn't be hacked to make player characters would've caused some serious bad blood.


                                Onyx Path Forum Moderator
                                Please spare a thought for updating the Exalted wiki.

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