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Exalted: Essence

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  • TheCountAlucard
    replied
    Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
    I think you might be overthinking this a bit...
    Is that not what forums are for?

    Leave a comment:


  • The Wizard of Oz
    replied
    Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
    I also advocate certain MAs giving weapon tags to the unarmed attack of the user for more variety.
    Definitely.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sunder the Gold
    replied
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    I'm not sure this is the best example consider that Guts isn't actually that skilled at fighting techniques and all that. His strength (keeping in mind he one-hands a sword most people couldn't use with two hands, and cleanly cuts things in half with it despite it effectively being too dull to properly call a blade), his tenacity, and most importantly his tactical skills are what carries him most of the time. His fights are rarely refined techniques vs. different refined techniques. They're mostly about whether or not Gutz can get himself in a position to use a powerful but basic attack on his enemy. He's really good at getting into a spot where he can smash you with that sword, but all he's really doing is swinging a giant sword around because very few things can take a hit from it and survive. He doesn't have a deep bench of advanced techniques, which is why he struggles against smarter opponents that manage to out maneuver him.
    Is this different from how an Earth Dragon Stylist fights? Tanking blows with tenacity and sometimes heavy armor, while trying to use withering attacks with a heavy weapon to maneuver the opponent into a vulnerable position for one decisive attack?

    How are his skills not "refined" compared to those of his "refined" opponents? Are thpse opponents using Martial Arts instead of Melee? Then Guts could never "refine" his techniques, because they would stem from a fundamentally different and incompatible source.

    His technique can only be unrefined if he and his opponents are operating on the same basic principles, and Guts simply has fewer dots in the shared Ability, or fewer Techniques.


    As noted the Storyteller system for VtM had a number of combat techniques.
    Conceded.

    Leave a comment:


  • DrLoveMonkey
    replied
    I also advocate certain MAs giving weapon tags to the unarmed attack of the user for more variety.

    Leave a comment:


  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
    It is when the game shifts to combat resolution rules.
    Not inherently.

    The problem here is that pesky word "genre." Genre is the sort of context that can take phrases that have base definitions that mean the same thing, and then have them mean completely different things.

    Just having a combat system doesn't mean your game's genre has turned into martial arts.

    Or to put it a different way: Is Saving Private Ryan a martial arts genre film? If you think it isn't, then you get the distinction that having people demonstrate martial capabilities isn't the same thing the set of tropes/norms/etc. that define a genre. If you think it is a martial arts genre film... I think we're not going to get anywhere because you're rejecting the common use meaning of words.

    In Berserk, is Guts not essentially a martial artist with his enormous sword?
    I'm not sure this is the best example consider that Guts isn't actually that skilled at fighting techniques and all that. His strength (keeping in mind he one-hands a sword most people couldn't use with two hands, and cleanly cuts things in half with it despite it effectively being too dull to properly call a blade), his tenacity, and most importantly his tactical skills are what carries him most of the time. His fights are rarely refined techniques vs. different refined techniques. They're mostly about whether or not Gutz can get himself in a position to use a powerful but basic attack on his enemy. He's really good at getting into a spot where he can smash you with that sword, but all he's really doing is swinging a giant sword around because very few things can take a hit from it and survive. He doesn't have a deep bench of advanced techniques, which is why he struggles against smarter opponents that manage to out maneuver him.

    Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
    Compare this to the base Storyteller system made for Vampire: The Masquerade, which was meant to model untrained thugs and not to scale so finely upwards into master martial artists.
    You haven't really demonstrated this. As noted the Storyteller system for VtM had a number of combat techniques. While you didn't learn them individually, many were too difficulty for low ranked characters to pull off successfully. What can't you do in the Storyteller system with the techniques in the book?

    The Gangrel had a trick in one of their Disciplines for turning their hands into claws, and all Vampires could be super-strong or super-fast, but few to none of their powers took the form of a specific kind of punch, kick, or block.
    Because vampires in VtM don't have "superpowered fighting techniques," as part of their powers. That doesn't meant the system can't handle this. Many WtA Gifts do take the form of specific attacks (though a lot are claw and bite based because they're werewolves). In Mage, depending on edition a bit, Do grants access to specific attacks as well; and a rote might incorporate specific attacks. So just saying that vampires didn't get these sorts of powers doesn't mean the system can't do them.

    Any attack with fist, foot, sword, or bar stool was entirely abstracted with a dice roll, with greater skill being represented solely with more dots resulting in more dice and maybe more successes.
    Isn't this just describing the process of how games need to abstract things to make them functional in play? There are games that go into more or less detail, but they all end up simplifying it to some level.

    Exalted cannot sell itself on allowing you to play Ninja Scroll if the system cannot properly model a master martial artist as well as those with no strength or skill, or those with no skill who rely on brute strength.
    The only thing I see lacking here is the brute strength based fighter who's actually a threat to a well trained fighter.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tymeaus Jalynsfein
    replied
    Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

    Well the description is...


    “ Her neck lengthens up towards the heavens
    as she grows up to five times her normal height, while her
    head becomes that of a delicate, gold-beaked foal. Four sets
    of spiraling gazelle’s horns adorn her brow, and her arms
    and legs vanish while opalescent fins like those of a carp
    hold her new form aloft in the air. Countless eyes run down
    either side of her narrow snout and continue down her
    back, ranging from the size of small pearls to that of goose
    eggs, blazing like sapphires in the noonday sun”

    And the picture is...

    https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca88...soWIc2t5D76958

    Ahhh Yes... Thank You - I forgot about Dreaming Pearl Courtesan...

    Leave a comment:


  • JohnDoe244
    replied
    To be fair, Stroyteller did have punches do less damage with more accuracy and kicks the inverse. It also had body slams, grapples, sweeps, tackles and throws. Werewolf added bite attacks (to the claw Gangrel already had). 1E Exalted had Brawl and Martial Arts Charms. nWoD introduced fighting styles like Boxing as merits. Storyteller has knock backs, knock downs, multiple attacks as a flurry of blows.

    It doesn't model combat as well as, say, Burn Legend, sure.

    But it's a LOT more complex than E3 having "unarmed attack" at a fixed TN of 7.

    Leave a comment:


  • DrLoveMonkey
    replied
    Originally posted by Tymeaus Jalynsfein View Post
    A Dragon Deer Carp... Thing? I really wanna see that one
    Well the description is...


    “ Her neck lengthens up towards the heavens
    as she grows up to five times her normal height, while her
    head becomes that of a delicate, gold-beaked foal. Four sets
    of spiraling gazelle’s horns adorn her brow, and her arms
    and legs vanish while opalescent fins like those of a carp
    hold her new form aloft in the air. Countless eyes run down
    either side of her narrow snout and continue down her
    back, ranging from the size of small pearls to that of goose
    eggs, blazing like sapphires in the noonday sun”

    And the picture is...

    https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca88...soWIc2t5D76958

    Leave a comment:


  • Sunder the Gold
    replied
    Originally posted by Tymeaus Jalynsfein View Post
    A Dragon Deer Carp... Thing? I really wanna see that one
    It's the capstone to Dreaming Pearl Courtesan.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Wizard of Oz
    replied
    Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
    You need to buy a horse and cart from a farmer you encounter on the road. The storyteller says the farmer doesn't want to part with either because he needs them for the harvest season.

    You introduce a fact that this harvest season is going to be a massive failure for some reason that even the farmer wouldn't know. Suddenly the farmer sees a less more value in keeping his horse and cart than in gaining cold, hard coin that he can use to buy long-lasting food to survive the next season.
    If he doesn't know, how can you use it to convince him?


    You disguise yourself as a citizen of Foreign Country A to infiltrate Foreign Culture B. A guard stops you because Foreign Culture B doesn't trust people from Foreign Culture A.

    You introduce a fact that your particular disguise distinguishes you as a real subculture of Foreign Culture A that the guard knows about but didn't recognize you as, and this subculture is one that his culture actually approves of. He is now more inclined to let you through unmolested.
    I assume you mean that he now recognises you as, but I see your point. I guess these are possible.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tymeaus Jalynsfein
    replied
    A Dragon Deer Carp... Thing? I really wanna see that one

    Leave a comment:


  • DrLoveMonkey
    replied
    Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
    Exalted cannot sell itself on allowing you to play Ninja Scroll if the system cannot properly model a master martial artist as well as those with no strength or skill, or those with no skill who rely on brute strength.
    I think you might be overthinking this a bit, Sunder. Exalted doesn’t have particular moves or merits representing MA techniques because at the mortal level those are abstracted down to just gambits, trips, holds, unarmed disarming techniques. The granularity is in charms because that’s where most of the game takes place, where the entry level is Bruce Lee with fireballs, and it scales all the way up to becoming a Dragon Deer Carp...thing.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tymeaus Jalynsfein
    replied
    Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
    To approach this from another direction.

    ...

    Exalted cannot sell itself on allowing you to play Ninja Scroll if the system cannot properly model a master martial artist as well as those with no strength or skill, or those with no skill who rely on brute strength.
    Yet the Exalted System seems, in my experience, to model everything you just described... In fact, I played pretty much each of those martial descriptions in Storyteller System (from Vampire to Werewolf to Changeling to Mortals). I will admit that maybe my standards differ from yours, though.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sunder the Gold
    replied
    To approach this from another direction.

    Burn Legend can model a "martial artist", because that's precisely what it is geared to do.

    But such a system is also easily capable of modeling a tiger or bear. Even if you don't give the beast any Okami/Lunar Techniques, you can give them whichever Basic Techniques you want, at any level of expertise you want, and then scale their Attribute dots as high as you want. Plenty of bestial brute strength to make the animal into a combat threat without any Advanced Techniques.

    The system can also model untrained thugs. It works exactly like modeling a bear, but far more modest Attributes, and maybe one Advanced Technique if they have any informal training at all, or maybe they fight as a hobby when they're not working as someone's dumb muscle.

    And of course, anyone who invested almost entirely in non-combat skills is easily modeled, with their low Attributes and only the single "Basic Strike" Basic Technique at the lowest possible level of investment. They won't perform very well, but they CAN perform. The system is built to recognize and resolve even their level of contribution.

    The system scales all the way up (Bruce Lee, with fireballs), it scales all the way down (pencil-pusher), and it scales completely sideways (fucking bear).


    Compare this to the base Storyteller system made for Vampire: The Masquerade, which was meant to model untrained thugs and not to scale so finely upwards into master martial artists. The Gangrel had a trick in one of their Disciplines for turning their hands into claws, and all Vampires could be super-strong or super-fast, but few to none of their powers took the form of a specific kind of punch, kick, or block. Any attack with fist, foot, sword, or bar stool was entirely abstracted with a dice roll, with greater skill being represented solely with more dots resulting in more dice and maybe more successes.


    Exalted cannot sell itself on allowing you to play Ninja Scroll if the system cannot properly model a master martial artist as well as those with no strength or skill, or those with no skill who rely on brute strength.
    Last edited by Sunder the Gold; 12-11-2019, 04:02 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sunder the Gold
    replied
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    I'm not sure this is entirely fair since Exalted isn't just a martial arts genre game.
    It is when the game shifts to combat resolution rules.

    Even sooner than that; when you're designing a character who has trained in how to fight, and where the fighting abilities that truly matter act like distinct techniques (Charms).

    In Berserk, is Guts not essentially a martial artist with his enormous sword? I read the fight where he was challenged by a smaller, nimble fencer who trapped Guts in a room filled with tightly-placed stone columns to prevent Guts from using his Heavy Swordsman Style's Wide Swing Technique. And where Guts was confronted on a narrow ledge with his sword arm up against the cliff, once again effectively sealing his most dangerous Techniques.

    Guts was prodigiously strong for a human, but he didn't just rely on his Strength Attribute. His combat skills are martial arts. The two phrases are completely synonymous.

    SUPERNATURAL martial arts is a different story. That's when someone uses magic to transcend mortal martial skill to use an enormous sword to do the kind of crazy shit that Cloud Strife achieved through Limit Breaks, like Whirlwind, Meteor Rain, and Omnislash.
    Last edited by Sunder the Gold; 12-11-2019, 02:52 PM.

    Leave a comment:

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