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  • TheCountAlucard
    replied
    Sadly, evidence suggests that some people can be persuaded to do something atrocious even when they know the argument in favor of it is based on a lie.
    Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 12-09-2019, 12:19 PM.

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  • Sunder the Gold
    replied
    One of Storyteller-Exalted's problems is needing exactly five Abilities for each of five Ability-based Castes to Favor, and exactly three Attributes for each of at least three Attribute-based Castes to Favor.

    This leads to:
    • Martial Arts being an entirely separate thing from all other combat Abilities in a MARTIAL ARTS GAME which should be one of the best places to acknowledge that the phrase "martial arts" is literally synonymous with "combat skill", and if you really want to distinguish non-philosophical warriors who focus entirely on physical, external hard force from "martial artists" then the Attribute / Ability divide was a perfectly acceptable path. Just give them more dots in Strength and Dexterity than in Abilities.
    • Charisma and Manipulation being largely the SAME Attribute but with exactly one unique application apiece (Charisma can be used to command troops, and Manipulation determines Guile). Imagine if we had two versions of Dexterity, but only one of them allowed you to keep your balance and only the other would allow you to climb things, but both of them could be used to roll for every kind of attack and defense.
    • Appearance being an Attribute when NWOD rightly treats it as a Merit.
    YET, I love Third Edition's social influence system. I feel it could be more clear about the timing of Read Intentions actions, and that successfully determining that someone is lying to you should be a viable alternative to defeating their influence, but I like what it does with Intimacies and the various social influence actions.


    The only reason I gravitated to something as hideously complex as Exalted when something simpler like Big Eyes, Small Mouth existed was because Exalted's mechanics DID represent the physics engine of its world. BESM would have "Charms" like "Massive Attack", but shirked any responsibility for explaining why some people would have that Charm and others wouldn't.

    First Edition Exalted would explain that "Massive Attack" worked because the Exalt had figured out Hungry Tiger Technique, the skill by which they made their sword EXPLODE with Solar Essence after they had successfully hit someone, so the more successfully they hit someone (ie: the more vulnerable a place they hit) the more damage the explosion would do. The Alchemical Exalted version of Hungry Tiger Technique was Piston-Driven Megaton Hammer, which was also "after successfully hitting someone, make your fist explode forward to capitalize on it".

    If you're going to have Minutia Mechanics, then each cog in the machine needs to represent something in reality, and each different kind of exception to the rules needs to represent something.

    Sidereal Exalted did this with their "reject reality and substitute your own by rerolling a bad roll" and "nudge the very laws of probability in your favor by lowering Target Numbers".

    Lunar Exalted Charms largely do this simply by being Attribute-based, representing shocking raw power independent of any learned skill.

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  • Magnus K
    replied
    Originally posted by Neall View Post

    The actual bottleneck in production isn't writing, although that's a long process in and of itself. Development takes time and resources and a coherent vision. That's hard enough with one person; even for Minton and Vance, or for Monica and myself, all of whom have known each other and been colleagues for more than a decade, you get tone and vision disagreements that take time to resolve lest they find themselves in the final product. I've made no secret that I think every Abyssal absolutely needs the definitive article in front of their name in light of Creation's naming conventions and the fact that what they're called is a title, not a name - and yet, people have incredibly strong opinions about what to call Abyssals and what a proper naming schema for them is. Reading and revising all of these things to take interlocking elements into account takes time. Ensuring cohesion for the line takes time. No, the actual bottleneck in production lies with the developers.

    Books are developed on a certain timeframe, at which time it's only possible to produce a certain amount of work, and this work isn't a question of how many people are willing to write. It involves those bottlenecks of development time, art direction, proofing, printing, and they are unavoidable.

    Now, what have we developed? All of the high-level pieces for each Exalt splat have been designed internally, but that bottleneck still exists. One of the selling points of Essence is the ability to play with these new Exalt types a while before it's feasible to fully flesh them out, and for you to enjoy their aesthetics, themes, and unique playstyles at your table without a lot of cognitive load.



    Many of them do. As I said before, they have more time than we have developers on Exalted, and if you don't want an atonal mess of a line that contradicts itself every new splat you've got to have a line developer. It takes time and extra effort when you bring on a new dev, because you have to ensure they'll work with the singular vision of the line. Ian works closely with every Trinity developer regardless of line, and I do the same on Scion in addition to developing my own books. Monica had her bona fides established a long time ago in Exalted land, I'd hope that I've earned some too, and Dixie already has a slew of credits to her name on the line and incredible project management skills for many other lines handled by Onyx Path. I remember when the Exalted board was black and orange with white text, for crying out loud. We know the line.

    tl;dr:

    1) It's still going to take a lot of time to produce all of those books. A thousand monkeys on a thousand typewriters isn't going to write the novel faster.
    2) All of the high-level aesthetics and thematics for the Exalt types have been largely designed already, but can't be put into full splatbook form yet without the above process.
    3) This is writing Exalted, so those writers "not writing Exalted" are still writing Exalted.
    Thank you for this explanation.


    Originally posted by Jang View Post




    If you didn't know either, why were you complaining? After all, it is speculative. For me, I am hopeful because I just don't mind giving OnyxPath the benefit of the doubt that this is a good move. I guess you just aren't willing to give them that?
    Because I had read about some coming Exalted news, then i read it is another alternative version of the Core, which annoys me as stated previously since I as stated previously assumed that these people could have worked on an actual exalted product we need. I complained because I view myself as quite patient, but the slow release of Exalted source books are grinding on my patience, then you can probably imagine that the news that a new developer team is in fact re-working the rules instead of working on one of the books we really need, well, yes, that I found that more than a bit irritating and confusing. Then I read the opening sentence of this thread which starts by asking everyone what their opinions are, and I gave mine. That is at least my explanation to my complaint. As for giving a commercial company the benefit of the doubt before you apply some cynicism and question their motives, well I don't know how wise that is in general.

    I hope this explanation is good enough, as I am , as stated quite finished complaining. I am not a particularly difficult man, just a Story teller anxious and maybe a bit impatient, for source books.
    I can only hope the developers are right. That this will not impact other Exalted releases. And finally, wish them all the best of luck with this new project, even though I at current think it is a giant waste of resources. It might end up being smashingly fine book and that is what i hope it will be !

    Leave a comment:


  • Lioness
    replied
    Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
    Don't too many cooks spoil the broth? I have a pretty tiny kitchen at my current apartment; having even two people in there doing something simultaneously is not really viable, let alone helpful for cooking something faster.
    We've already seen this analogy play out with 2e where books frequently had their own internal development process giving rise to serious inconsistencies.

    Leave a comment:


  • Neall
    replied
    Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
    I really don't share Magnus's view point (I could not be more stoked by this -- I can't wait!)... but does that really hold?

    We've got a bunch of writers who know Exalted well enough to write an entire system book for Exalted.
    We've got money to pay these writers.
    These writers have time to write.

    Surely they could be given work writing books for E3, getting content out quicker?

    And the same for Scion or Trinity -- time spent working on those books is time not spent working on Exalted.

    Onyx Path chooses what work to commission from its freelancers, and the freelancers fit those commissions around their other life commitments: there isn't some infinite pool of labor, these books do draw writers away from the Exalted main-line. If you're writing something else instead of Exalted... you're not writing Exalted.
    The actual bottleneck in production isn't writing, although that's a long process in and of itself. Development takes time and resources and a coherent vision. That's hard enough with one person; even for Minton and Vance, or for Monica and myself, all of whom have known each other and been colleagues for more than a decade, you get tone and vision disagreements that take time to resolve lest they find themselves in the final product. I've made no secret that I think every Abyssal absolutely needs the definitive article in front of their name in light of Creation's naming conventions and the fact that what they're called is a title, not a name - and yet, people have incredibly strong opinions about what to call Abyssals and what a proper naming schema for them is. Reading and revising all of these things to take interlocking elements into account takes time. Ensuring cohesion for the line takes time. No, the actual bottleneck in production lies with the developers.

    Books are developed on a certain timeframe, at which time it's only possible to produce a certain amount of work, and this work isn't a question of how many people are willing to write. It involves those bottlenecks of development time, art direction, proofing, printing, and they are unavoidable.

    Now, what have we developed? All of the high-level pieces for each Exalt splat have been designed internally, but that bottleneck still exists. One of the selling points of Essence is the ability to play with these new Exalt types a while before it's feasible to fully flesh them out, and for you to enjoy their aesthetics, themes, and unique playstyles at your table without a lot of cognitive load.

    Now an argument can be made that the devs want to maintain creative control: they don't want a dozen different freelancers writing half-a-dozen different books, they want manageable projects which they can check balance on, and putting all these writers on too many books too fast is bad for game quality. That's an absolutely valid argument. EE having its own team though... why couldn't they work on the Exalted mainline?
    Many of them do. As I said before, they have more time than we have developers on Exalted, and if you don't want an atonal mess of a line that contradicts itself every new splat you've got to have a line developer. It takes time and extra effort when you bring on a new dev, because you have to ensure they'll work with the singular vision of the line. Ian works closely with every Trinity developer regardless of line, and I do the same on Scion in addition to developing my own books. Monica had her bona fides established a long time ago in Exalted land, I'd hope that I've earned some too, and Dixie already has a slew of credits to her name on the line and incredible project management skills for many other lines handled by Onyx Path. I remember when the Exalted board was black and orange with white text, for crying out loud. We know the line.

    tl;dr:

    1) It's still going to take a lot of time to produce all of those books. A thousand monkeys on a thousand typewriters isn't going to write the novel faster.
    2) All of the high-level aesthetics and thematics for the Exalt types have been largely designed already, but can't be put into full splatbook form yet without the above process.
    3) This is writing Exalted, so those writers "not writing Exalted" are still writing Exalted.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jang
    replied
    Originally posted by Magnus K View Post
    I don't understand how you seem to be entirely convinced that having a group work on this project means that they could not have worked on another project. You don't know this. It is speculative. It could be true but it absolutely could be untrue. Perhaps you are right, but perhaps I am right. You don't know and I don't know.

    Originally posted by Magnus K View Post
    Anyway, I am done complaining.
    If you didn't know either, why were you complaining? After all, it is speculative. For me, I am hopeful because I just don't mind giving OnyxPath the benefit of the doubt that this is a good move. I guess you just aren't willing to give them that?

    Leave a comment:


  • Dragonmystic
    replied
    Originally posted by Magnus K View Post
    I don't understand how you seem to be entirely convinced that having a group work on this project means that they could not have worked on another project. You don't know this. It is speculative. It could be true but it absolutely could be untrue. Perhaps you are right, but perhaps I am right. You don't know and I don't know.
    The writers themselves are saying this in the discord. E.g. this book is being developed in the "off-cycle" phase. Fatsplat books are not being affected. At most, you could make an argument that a supplement book (like Arms) is being "sacrificed"

    Basically, the main line is unaffected, or barely affected at all, and it gives what some of us (like me and all my friends) have been asking for ever since 3e came out.

    Leave a comment:


  • Magnus K
    replied
    Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
    Also keep in mind that having a whole stable of writers throwing what they think is cool into their books without giving the developers time to give it more than a cursory glance before it hits the publishers, was what got us the worst aspects of 2e.
    Fair. But it still comes across as using precious, precious, rare, Exalted development resources for a parallel project that is unecessary. When the project comes out, I may love it, I hope so, but I would have appreciated a main splat more. Anyway, I am done complaining. I can't change their minds, so all i can do is to wish them the best of luck. I hope they give us a project which we can use.

    Leave a comment:


  • Magnus K
    replied
    Originally posted by Jang View Post

    Have you worked on a creative project before? Because you hit diminishing returns by adding people after a while. It is also why they don’t hire 20 people to write a script to make that process faster; it probably wouldn’t help.

    And, again, you get some material for each splat in this book. So it will be material to use until the other splats are released in full.
    I don't understand how you seem to be entirely convinced that having a group work on this project means that they could not have worked on another project. You don't know this. It is speculative. It could be true but it absolutely could be untrue. Perhaps you are right, but perhaps I am right. You don't know and I don't know.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheCountAlucard
    replied
    Also keep in mind that having a whole stable of writers throwing what they think is cool into their books without giving the developers time to give it more than a cursory glance before it hits the publishers, was what got us the worst aspects of 2e.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jang
    replied
    Originally posted by Magnus K View Post
    I don't really understand how you answered his very good question. Your answer strikes me as a non-answer and more as a marketing explanation as you don't really explain anything with your words. More specifically then: Why is it that these people could not have worked on an exalted product ? Are they unable to create such a product and only able to re-write the rules (which seems like a big project, which again makes me wonder, like John Dee, why they are not working on something we actually need aka missing main splats or source books)
    Is this question really such a bad question ? For me, it is the obvious one to ask and one I think you guys should honestly answer.
    Have you worked on a creative project before? Because you hit diminishing returns by adding people after a while. It is also why they don’t hire 20 people to write a script to make that process faster; it probably wouldn’t help.

    And, again, you get some material for each splat in this book. So it will be material to use until the other splats are released in full.

    Leave a comment:


  • Magnus K
    replied
    Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
    My younger sister has a disability that limits her ability to do things. She's barely got enough in her to take care of herself in a given day.

    ​Having an easier to master system would help my sister to play the game. If I want her to play in an Exalted campaign, this project is entirely critical for it.
    Gave you a like there, for that was a fair answer. My response to that is however that your sister is probably not the target for advanced RPGs. Look, I understand what you mean, and I sympathise with those who are frightened by the rules. But I really, really do think, and I think that is fair, that it is the Exalted target group, us who are Story tellers and buy all the products, that should be peddled to first and foremost and not people with learning difficulties or disabilities. There are other easier games with a less complex settings and rules. And source material is being released very rarely, so I do not understand how they prioritize.

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  • Magnus K
    replied
    Originally posted by IanWatson View Post

    Sometimes adding more people to a project will not help it get out faster.

    Sure, we could hire a thousand people and get them all to write a single paragraph for a book, but the amount of organization they'd need in order to make a good book would delay the production process far more than the standard method.

    Sometimes making a baby takes nine months, and it's going to take nine months no matter how many additional people are involved.
    I don't really understand how you answered his very good question. Your answer strikes me as a non-answer and more as a marketing explanation as you don't really explain anything with your words. More specifically then: Why is it that these people could not have worked on an exalted product ? Are they unable to create such a product and only able to re-write the rules (which seems like a big project, which again makes me wonder, like John Dee, why they are not working on something we actually need aka missing main splats or source books)
    Is this question really such a bad question ? For me, it is the obvious one to ask and one I think you guys should honestly answer.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheCountAlucard
    replied
    Originally posted by Magnus K View Post
    Maybe, and it would be nice if that succeeded of course. But I am skeptical when you claim that it has no impact. It seems to me that this could have mean a development of one of the books we actually need and it exasperates me that priority is given to this project which not at all seems critical for any campaign anywhere.
    My younger sister has a disability that limits her ability to do things. She's barely got enough in her to take care of herself in a given day.

    ​Having an easier to master system would help my sister to play the game. If I want her to play in an Exalted campaign, this project is entirely critical for it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jang
    replied
    Originally posted by Magnus K View Post
    Maybe, and it would be nice if that succeeded of course. But I am skeptical when you claim that it has no impact. It seems to me that this could have mean a development of one of the books we actually need and it exasperates me that priority is given to this project which not at all seems critical for any campaign anywhere.
    Well, it is gonna include splats and material for a whole slew of other exalts, which will be transferable to E3 proper. In my book, that is material that can help any campaign anywhere.

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