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  • Originally posted by vwllss trnt prncss View Post
    A solution I've been toying with in my head is compressing Caste Abilities. The Dawn can buy Dawn •••, and get swords, bows, troops, the works in a compact package. Everybody else has to pick between Melee, Brawl, Thrown, etc. That would allow for a slashing of the Ability dot budget. "Caste at •••, then distribute ••••••••" would result in much tighter characters - assuming that they're hewing tightly to Caste.
    You might enjoy the original Tomb of Five Corners Quickstart.


    Hey, check out my first original RPG, Post-Mortem, here: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/307131/PostMortem

    Or check out my Patreon here: https://www.patreon.com/dexdavican

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    • Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
      There's apparently an entire thread right now about how impractical it is to run a five-on-one boss fight in Exalted.

      Is this something you think is crucial for Exalted: Essence to nail?
      I'll go a little bit against the usual answers given on this forum by talking about my personal preference : Modular difficulty. When my players want to fight Octavian in an epic fight, I don't care if they are the 5 most dangerous Dawn on the world, or just a simple group with 2 almost good fighters and 1 caster and 1 something else, I want the challenge to adapt to the story we want to tell. So I think what I want is rather simple rules and tools on how to properly and simply balance NPC's for different kind of challenge and group of players.

      for this, I believe the most usual tropes of fighting in the genre that is Exalted are :
      - Team vs Team
      - Team vs 1
      - Team vs Team vs Team
      - 1v1
      - Team vs Team in some sort of skill challenge-related fight

      I don't expect all boxes to be checked, but the more the better I think.


      My homebrew (Leave comments if you want to help improve) : A quick recap of all the pools and stats for Quick Exalted 3E characters

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      • Thinking on it a bit, I'm not sure this is really an E:E thing to be doing, but addressing the list there, I think there's a relatively simple approach (conceptually): design everything around team vs. team.

        Something that's vaguely present in Ex3 if not really given as much love as it could, is the idea of having single big monsters handled as group of parts. That really just turns big single boss battles into a team vs team design, even if in-universe one team is only one character. But instead a lot of the bigger beasties rely on things like Legendary Size to make them hard to take down (until the PCs get to the point of being able to blow past those bonuses anyway).

        It's already a pretty well defined aspect of the game that Exalted vs. Exalted fights tend to be group affairs. You expect Lunars vs. the Wyld Hunt, or Solars vs. Abyssals to be team fights.

        Otherwise you'd expect minions and battle groups to turn things into team fights. You don't get into a fight with Mask of Winters without getting into a fight with his army.

        1v1 generally works fine in a team vs.team design paradigm because it's just two small teams.

        More than two teams, and skill related challenge things (I'm guessing that might mean something like Sail fights where there's the sailing part and the boarding part), shouldn't be too hard to layer onto a solid team vs team design.

        The biggest issue is the ST overhead of having to run a team of enemies (esp. since a BG really only counts as one). with the relative complexity each team member is going to have in a 5 on 5 Exalted slugfest.

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        • Heavy Arms While I'm generally ok with "big boss as a team" design, I think that there is a deeper problem here. As the discussion in http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...solars-at-once some people are really attached to Exalted 3e design paradigm that Solars start very near the top of what human-like being can achieve in the setting and it's rather that design decision that seems to be. So the main problem is: expectations differ whether we even want fights against old masters in our game (everyone seems ok to a group fight against an eldritch abomination though).

          As I wrote there, I'm much more attached to the idea that Solars are powerful in the absoulute, not relative sense (I'm ok with them struggling with old arcane sifus), so I'd very interested if the new system allows to make boss fights viable.

          Chausse
          When I think about it, I think that your division misses some essential distinctions. I'd bring five broad categories of fight participants:
          - team
          - mooks
          - master/nemesis
          - monster
          - hero/rivals

          Team fights should play out differently against an anti-circle of Abyssals and against a horde of faceless mooks. Similarly, a boss fight with an old sifu (which could be treated as a team) should be different than a fight with Wyld behemoth (I'd be ok with the last one being represented more as series of enviromental threats and some challenges).
          Last edited by Lanic; 02-13-2020, 09:45 AM.

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          • Originally posted by Lanic View Post
            Heavy Arms While I'm generally ok with "big boss as a team" design, I think that there is a deeper problem here. As the discussion in http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...solars-at-once some people are really attached to Exalted 3e design paradigm that Solars start very near the top of what human-like being can achieve in the setting and it's rather that design decision that seems to be. So the main problem is: expectations differ whether we even want fights against old masters in our game (everyone seems ok to a group fight against an eldritch abomination though).

            As I wrote there, I'm much more attached to the idea that Solars are powerful in the absoulute, not relative sense (I'm ok with them struggling with old arcane sifus), so I'd very interested if the new system allows to make boss fights viable.

            Chausse
            When I think about it, I think that your division misses some essential distinctions. I'd bring five broad categories of fight participants:
            - team
            - mooks
            - master/nemesis
            - monster
            - hero/rivals

            Team fights should play out differently against an anti-circle of Abyssals and against a horde of faceless mooks. Similarly, a boss fight with an old sifu (which could be treated as a team) should be different than a fight with Wyld behemoth (I'd be ok with the last one being represented more as series of enviromental threats and some challenges).
            Yes of course, I didn't list all the tropes and I thank you for listing more. I think going by enemy type is a good idea as well, I actually like the Battle Groups of Exalted as of now (even if they have flaws)


            My homebrew (Leave comments if you want to help improve) : A quick recap of all the pools and stats for Quick Exalted 3E characters

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            • Originally posted by Gonzo View Post
              I'm starting to doubt that EE will be simple enough to cover my current needs... if things like onslaught penalties are around, I think I'll pass.
              We haven't said anything about onslaught penalties. What information are you basing your doubts on, precisely?

              I remember that the original Ex3 developers were somewhat dismissive about suggestions and/or petitions. I really hope that the people behind EE are more open and listen to what the fans want (I would put special attention on what the players who have left said in the past), because otherwise all this project will be pretty useless IMO.
              There are people on this project who are new to Exalted with Ex3; there are people who came on board with Ex2; and three of us, including two of the devs, have been with the line since Ex1 (in my case, I pre-ordered the corebook).

              We have been listening to fans and what they don't like about Exalted for a long, long, long time.


              Neall Raemonn Price
              Beleaguered Scion Developer

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              • I found the writers on Discord seemed to take what people said seriously. They didn't actually answer all the questions with "this is what we're going to do", but I didn't expect them to, but they did take everything seriously, and it sounded like they took the amount of things you have to keep track of in Exalted seriously as a big priority for simplicity. They also said they wanted to reduce the amount of steps you have to go through, which'd be great for speeding up, say, combat.

                Of course, no-one writes a game and tells fans "yeah, it's going to be sh**", everyone says "my game is going to be great!", but I found their attitude quite different to Holden and John's, just the fact that you can talk to them a bit on Discord is very different.

                I think if you hate the core mechanic of Exalted (ie Attribute+Ability dice) you're not going to like it, but it does sound like it will be simpler.
                (Personally, I want it to be about 20-40% simpler, not completely simplified. But I guess different people will want different things.)
                Last edited by The Wizard of Oz; 02-18-2020, 10:20 AM.


                I play...
                Kovan, actor, librarian, sorcerer, great bear, Lunar Elder from the First Age
                Thutmose-Osiris, seventh son of a seventh son, descendant of the Supreme Deity Sukhmet, renegade demigod and bearer of the Ghoul-Banishing Bow. Also bright green.

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                • Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                  I think if you hate the core mechanic of Exalted (ie Attribute+Ability dice) you're not going to like it, but it does sound like it will be simpler.
                  (Personally, I want it to be about 20-40% simpler, not completely simplified. But I guess different people will want different things.)
                  If it were exalted fourth edition I’d want 20% simpler. For a one-off Exalted: Lite I think closer to 40%-60% just so people who really can’t deal with the complexity can still play.

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                  • Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

                    If it were exalted fourth edition I’d want 20% simpler. For a one-off Exalted: Lite I think closer to 40%-60% just so people who really can’t deal with the complexity can still play.
                    40-60% would suit my group.

                    I love Exalted's complexity. My group doesn't. If EE isn't pick-up-and-play then it won't suit us.

                    A simplified Exalted doesn't have to appeal to me, but it really does have to cater to people who want a simplified Exalted. 20% won't cut it.


                    Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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                    • And, as has been discussed, complexity isn't actually something as simple as a percentage to increase or decrease anyway.

                      A version of Exalted that barely decreases the complexity on STs, but drastically decreases the complexity on players is going to appeal to a lot of people because a lot of groups already have that sort of dynamic. Meanwhile it's going to turn off a lot of other people because it doesn't matter how fun it is to be an Exalted player if nobody will run the game for you.

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                      • That's probably true John. While I can (and do) cope with Exalted's complexity, even when it sometimes irritates me, and so just a bit less complexity would be fine with me, there's plenty of others who want a waaaaaaaaaay simpler game. And if E:E is too simple for me, I'll continue playing regular Exalted, while those who want a much more simple game will play E:E.

                        Of course, what 20% or 40% or 60% simpler actually looks like might be envisaged differently by different people.
                        Last edited by The Wizard of Oz; 02-18-2020, 02:31 PM.


                        I play...
                        Kovan, actor, librarian, sorcerer, great bear, Lunar Elder from the First Age
                        Thutmose-Osiris, seventh son of a seventh son, descendant of the Supreme Deity Sukhmet, renegade demigod and bearer of the Ghoul-Banishing Bow. Also bright green.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                          A version of Exalted that barely decreases the complexity on STs, but drastically decreases the complexity on players is going to appeal to a lot of people because a lot of groups already have that sort of dynamic.
                          I'd be mostly fine with that, although I would like it to be much easier to run groups of NPCs in combat. Especially high-essence Dragonblood.


                          I play...
                          Kovan, actor, librarian, sorcerer, great bear, Lunar Elder from the First Age
                          Thutmose-Osiris, seventh son of a seventh son, descendant of the Supreme Deity Sukhmet, renegade demigod and bearer of the Ghoul-Banishing Bow. Also bright green.

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                          • Me as well, but I've STed all three editions of Exalted and while not perfect, I'm capable of handling the complexity without it getting to be unfun for me. While I definitely have players that avoid Exalted for the complexity. So I'm definitely in the camp of people served best if E:E focuses on making things easier on the players.

                            It was more of my way of saying the same thing about "X%" not being the same thing to different people.

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                            • Oh, definitely.

                              And of course, it may put off new STs.

                              Although when one of my friends started playing it, with an ST who'd never run games before 3rd ed, that new ST's frustration wasn't complexity, but lack of enemies and challenges for Solars. Which was something I, as an experienced ST, could sympathise with (it's better now, but there was a loooong gap between the Core and anything else).

                              Hopefully E:E will face that issue with the fact that there's rules for 10 Exalt types, and hopefully a simpler system will mean it's simpler to make/run a bunch of evil Abyssal/Infernal NPCs, fanatical Dragonblood anathema-hunters, or vile Solar demon-kings for your players to face off against.
                              (There's also the hope that there'll be lots of much quicker/simpler Quick Character Exalts, so you don't have to make your own, but I'm not very hopeful of that due to space constraints. Still, if there's an experienced and inexperienced example NPC for each type, that'd be 20. I'd like to see some Raksha, Demons, and giant monsters too. Obviously to fit all that in they probably would have to be a lot simpler though.*)


                              *I know they're planning on doing a conversion guide, so you could convert the 2nd circle demons, behemoths, etc, from Hundred Devils, but that's the sort of thing which is fine for the experienced, happy-with-complexity ST with the group that finds Exalted too complex, but not so much for the ST who doesn't want to do so much work.
                              Last edited by The Wizard of Oz; 02-18-2020, 06:35 PM.


                              I play...
                              Kovan, actor, librarian, sorcerer, great bear, Lunar Elder from the First Age
                              Thutmose-Osiris, seventh son of a seventh son, descendant of the Supreme Deity Sukhmet, renegade demigod and bearer of the Ghoul-Banishing Bow. Also bright green.

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                              • Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                                Although when one of my friends started playing it, with an ST who'd never run games before 3rd ed, that new ST's frustration wasn't complexity, but lack of enemies and challenges for Solars. Which was something I, as an experienced ST, could sympathise with (it's better now, but there was a loooong gap between the Core and anything else).
                                I find this to be much more a factor of there not being a Storyteller Guide more than anything. Or any non-quickstart-jumpstart-newbie example campaigns. Having no direction about what kinds of challenges I'm supposed to be facing my PCs with, and in what amounts, and with what complications is not good.

                                I hope I'm not coming across as angry, but the Exalted 3e system was designed with some kind of idea for how it might function while it was working. It would be good as an ST to be let in on what that was exactly. The DnD DMG is fairly comprehensive about what it expects the challenges of the players to be facing, and if you don't live up to those the system breaks apart. The published campaigns also act as good ways to reinforce that, and give good examples.

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