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  • Morangias
    replied
    Originally posted by Navar View Post

    This is a great way to look at it. A fun note of exalted history is that it was originally sold (at least partially) as kind of "ninja scroll the RPG." if you are familiar with the old movie.

    And if you are not familiar with the old movie then you should fix that, post-haste.
    Definitely one of my favorite anime of all times. And I know it was also a major inspiration for the original 3e developers. Holden specifically mentioned it as the kind of story he thought 2e emulated really badly when discussing his design priorities for 3e.

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  • Blaque
    replied
    Originally posted by Navar View Post

    This is a great way to look at it. A fun note of exalted history is that it was originally sold (at least partially) as kind of "ninja scroll the RPG." if you are familiar with the old movie.

    And if you are not familiar with the old movie then you should fix that, post-haste.
    This is yeah, an important bit. Exalted origianlly was written with a pretty specific set of anime in mind. It's just that it hit the zeitgeist when it did pretty solidly, but in the process became more "broadly anime". And in some groups,t hat meant more DBZ and TTGL than it did Ninja Scroll or Escaflowne.

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  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
    Does it differentiate any form of fighting from martial arts?
    Training in advanced combat techniques is done via purchasing Edges (basically Merits). These might be stand-alone boosts (One Against An Ocean gives you a bonus on your next attack whenever you take an opponent down), or Style Edges which are a string of moves you learn in sequence. Style Edges that are broadly applicable need to be bought per weapon (including unarmed), while Style Edges that focus on a specific thing (ex: Sniper) apply with any appropriate weapon. Though at the moment there are only three Style Edges that would be classify as martial arts (the others might be useful in a fight, but aren't about fighting specifically).

    Edges can be gated by ratings in Attributes and/or Skills, and sometimes a Path (ex: a character with no Paths that provide a reason to be trained in combat might not be able to get some combat Edges).


    Or is a karateka separated from a street brawling punk by being formally trained to punch, kick, and throw effectively, but might still lose because the street punk pulls some sort of underhanded, tournament-illegal trick that the karateka could organically learn to do himself without having to learn a completely redundant Brawl Ability before finally learning "Brawl Charms"?
    The Trinity Storypath rules only use Aim (ranged) and Close Combat for fighting. The difference between a karateka and a street brawling punk are going to be Close Combat rating, Specialties (full characters get one at 3 dots), Skill Tricks (also achieved by fulled stated characters with high ratings in Close Combat), and Edges. Antagonists stated up as basic antagonists don't have Specialties or Skill Tricks.

    So the street brawling punk wouldn't be able to do anything the karateka couldn't do, but might be better at it despite having lower Close Combat, and the karateka wouldn't have to buy something different from besides choosing to learn some dirty tricks via Edges or a Skill Trick.

    Would there be just as much support for fighting with a battle-ax as with a slashing sword, let alone a bloody hook sword?
    Weapons in Storypath are just based on Tags. As noted, if you bought up Precise Martial Arts Style Edge for hook swords, you couldn't apply the bonuses to a battle-ax, but you could relearn it with a battle-ax. But you'd still have all your basic Close Combat stuff to use with the battle-ax.

    So a system that wasn't meant for nuanced combat was tasked with running a MARTIAL ARTS GENRE GAME.
    I'm not sure this is entirely fair since Exalted isn't just a martial arts genre game.

    The current versions of Storypath aren't specifically oriented towards a specific martial arts genre, so you're not going to find the depth of techniques as something like Burn Legend. But the engine could be tuned towards that if desired.

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  • Sunder the Gold
    replied
    Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
    I don't exactly understand what you mean, could you give an example?
    You need to buy a horse and cart from a farmer you encounter on the road. The storyteller says the farmer doesn't want to part with either because he needs them for the harvest season.

    You introduce a fact that this harvest season is going to be a massive failure for some reason that even the farmer wouldn't know. Suddenly the farmer sees a less more value in keeping his horse and cart than in gaining cold, hard coin that he can use to buy long-lasting food to survive the next season.


    You disguise yourself as a citizen of Foreign Country A to infiltrate Foreign Culture B. A guard stops you because Foreign Culture B doesn't trust people from Foreign Culture A.

    You introduce a fact that your particular disguise distinguishes you as a real subculture of Foreign Culture A that the guard knows about but didn't recognize you as, and this subculture is one that his culture actually approves of. He is now more inclined to let you through unmolested.

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  • Navar
    replied
    Originally posted by Morangias View Post
    All I ever wanted out of Exalted was a good shonen-level fight. Not necessarily Dragon Ball level, but at least Bleach.
    This is a great way to look at it. A fun note of exalted history is that it was originally sold (at least partially) as kind of "ninja scroll the RPG." if you are familiar with the old movie.

    And if you are not familiar with the old movie then you should fix that, post-haste.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Wizard of Oz
    replied
    Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
    How often did someone try to persuade your characters based on information that someone attempted to retroactively make a lie (or delusion) based on an introduced fact?
    I don't exactly understand what you mean, could you give an example?

    How often did you introduce a fact before trying to convince a character to do something based on that knowledge?
    I've seen this quite a lot because there's a Lunar charm that works this way, but it's very specific. Specifically, the shaman announces that he knows a spirit the PCs want to talk to actually really loves some rare herb that he happens to have in his pocket, and the charm then makes him able to make a Bargain action with the spirit as if the spirit has a Major Intimacy to it.

    I think it's pretty dull, and he could do it in a more interesting way, but... eh. A shaman's good at convincing spirits.

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  • The Wizard of Oz
    replied
    Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
    Who has used the Introduce Facts mechanic extensively, and would you want to see it used in "Path of Exalts"?
    I didn't use it much until recently. Or rather, as the ST I didn't see PCs use it much. I've been trying to encourage the No Moon's player to use it, as he said he doesn't like it... but now he's started using it it's pretty good. I think it's essentially a good system if the players use it the way it's supposed to be used, and accept that the ST might edit it.

    I used it once to establish that there was an evil, decadent sorcerer who lived nearby when we were stranded on the Plateau of Leng, so we could go and try to trick him into using his powers to take us where we wanted (as our airship had been eaten by giant worms). If I'd tried to use it to say there was a super-friendly sorcerer who loved helping random Exalts, well that'd be cheating my lack of Ally.

    Anyway, the No Moon used an Establish Fact to declare that he knew who the mysterious villains from another player's backstory were. He declared they were mercenaries called the World Eaters (ie Khorne Berzerkers from 40k). Which could have been really awkward, but I kind of built it in by basically having the villains using the name as a cover to hide their true identities.

    Then, last session as the PCs were travelling through a massive thunderstorm on their way to the Elemental Pole of Air, he used it to declare that if the Full Moon did a special dance and drumming, it would summon the local top Storm Serpent and if he defeated it no other Storm Serpents would bother them. Now, that seems really powerful for what is essentially a roll supported by no charms. But the thing is, frankly, I would much rather have the Full Moon fight one elemental and the No Moon look like he's really good at his job of knowing about spirits, than actually have to run multiple fights against Storm Serpents which would be dull or feel too easy if I handwaved it.

    I have sometimes felt the charm where he makes an Introduce Fact to declare that some spirit actually really loves this herb he has in his pocket is a bit... I don't know, anticlimatic? But again, I don't care that much if the shaman finds it easy to convince spirits of stuff, that's what he's supposed to do. And the charm is harder to use if you don't have to go on a quest to find a rare thing.

    So, overall, I could see how some players might be awkward with it, but I've found it fine. It's also not very complicated.

    Would you want to see the injury/ailment and medical treatment systems simplified, or ported over as-is?
    Hmmm... what precisely are you referring to?

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  • Morangias
    replied
    Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
    How often did it interact with your group's attempts at social influence?

    How often did someone try to persuade your characters based on information that someone attempted to retroactively make a lie (or delusion) based on an introduced fact?

    How often did you introduce a fact before trying to convince a character to do something based on that knowledge?
    The answer to all those is "rarely", but that's also how often social influence sees use at my table.

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  • Sunder the Gold
    replied
    Originally posted by Morangias View Post
    Definitely one of my fav things about 3e, saw constant use in every session I ran. Makes knowledge checks in pretty much every other system clumsy and uninteresting in comparison.
    How often did it interact with your group's attempts at social influence?

    How often did someone try to persuade your characters based on information that someone attempted to retroactively make a lie (or delusion) based on an introduced fact?

    How often did you introduce a fact before trying to convince a character to do something based on that knowledge?

    Leave a comment:


  • Morangias
    replied
    Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
    Who has used the Introduce Facts mechanic extensively, and would you want to see it used in "Path of Exalts"?
    Definitely one of my fav things about 3e, saw constant use in every session I ran. Makes knowledge checks in pretty much every other system clumsy and uninteresting in comparison.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sunder the Gold
    replied
    Who has used the Introduce Facts mechanic extensively, and would you want to see it used in "Path of Exalts"?

    Would you want to see the injury/ailment and medical treatment systems simplified, or ported over as-is?

    I like the sound of the milestone system for crafting and sorcerous works.

    Leave a comment:


  • Morangias
    replied
    Originally posted by Navar View Post
    I think you are likely correct, in general, about 2e. The question I have always had though is what percentage of tables play optimally? In all of Role Playing the objective is to tell a story collectively, and our groups have never focused on "optimal" anything. I believe that I have been fortunate to have not been a part of groups that have done this. Even now my routine playgroup involves a math professor at an NCAA Division 1 university and we have a lot of probability and optimization conversations, but (to invoke a D&D reference because we cannot play 3e) we will still cast vicious mockery and build characters with that cantrip despite it being suboptimal if it is better for the story/our enjoyment at the table.
    All I ever wanted out of Exalted was a good shonen-level fight. Not necessarily Dragon Ball level, but at least Bleach. So yeah, I totally expected everyone at the table to play optimally. I myself was sifting through books, thinking up one broken combo after another, with the explicit understanding that the players will do the same and bring their own bullshit powers to bear against those of my NPCs.

    The problem with 2e is, you can't have that regardless if you play optimally or not. If you play optimally, everyone turtles behind a perfect without any offensive Charm use and the fight becomes a boring slog. If you ban perfects, the game becomes rocket tag, as non-perfect defences can't stand up to Essence-powered offense, and almost every Essence-powered attack becomes lethal. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. And neither option carries any significant tactical depth with it, which is what you'd expect from a system that has you choose from dozens discrete magical powers for every action you take.

    In general, a well written system shouldn't have you choose between playing optimally and telling a good story. If optimal choices lead to bullshit story, the system itself is bullshit.

    3e solves most of my problems with Exalted, just not in a way I can comfortably play. Again, if I had it at that time when I was itching to start my first 2e game, perhaps things would have been different.

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  • Sunder the Gold
    replied
    Originally posted by Neall View Post
    Good news! The Trinity Continuum core rulebook is now available for purchase!
    Does it differentiate any form of fighting from martial arts? Or is a karateka separated from a street brawling punk by being formally trained to punch, kick, and throw effectively, but might still lose because the street punk pulls some sort of underhanded, tournament-illegal trick that the karateka could organically learn to do himself without having to learn a completely redundant Brawl Ability before finally learning "Brawl Charms"?

    Would there be just as much support for fighting with a battle-ax as with a slashing sword, let alone a bloody hook sword?

    This is why I looked fondly back at Burn Legend. Where a karateka doesn't have to learn Karate as an Ability gated off by a Merit, he can just start purchasing Karate Techniques, and if he discovers that doesn't offer him a necessary counter-technique to someone who is kicking his ass, he can study Wrestling and begin practicing the specific Wrestling Technique he needs without needing to buy up dots in a Wrestling Ability which is virtually identical to the Karate Ability.


    The Storyteller system was designed to abstract all forms of punching, kicking, and grappling to just any roll of 1-to-10 dice, because the Storyteller system wasn't specialized for combat. It was for playing vampires who spent more time scheming and talking than fighting, and when they fought it was generally dirty, vicious street brawls between untrained fighters.

    Then Exalted tried to layer Charms over that system, with Charms effectively taking the place of tactical choices like Fierce Punch, High Kick, Block, etc. So a system that wasn't meant for nuanced combat was tasked with running a MARTIAL ARTS GENRE GAME.

    And this was further complicated by needing exactly 9 Attributes and 25 Abilities for dividing evenly among Castes and Aspects, and then basing all magic on those Traits. And realizing too late how this effectively gave Solars four different Martial Arts Styles that no one else could learn, and which would operate oddly if combined with any universally available Martial Arts.


    I'm hopeful that "Path of Exalts" system can find a nice middle ground between Exalted 3rd Edition and Burn Legend.

    A system where the sub-systems (combat, social influence, crafting, introducing facts) are made the first design priority, with the Traits necessary for them tailor-made for the sub-systems rather than the other way around.
    Last edited by Sunder the Gold; 12-11-2019, 12:26 PM.

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  • Navar
    replied
    I think you are likely correct, in general, about 2e. The question I have always had though is what percentage of tables play optimally? In all of Role Playing the objective is to tell a story collectively, and our groups have never focused on "optimal" anything. I believe that I have been fortunate to have not been a part of groups that have done this. Even now my routine playgroup involves a math professor at an NCAA Division 1 university and we have a lot of probability and optimization conversations, but (to invoke a D&D reference because we cannot play 3e) we will still cast vicious mockery and build characters with that cantrip despite it being suboptimal if it is better for the story/our enjoyment at the table.

    When you frame the system as complexity vs. depth than I totally see what you mean though. It really does feel like you have found the exact problem, and I totally understand how you could have combat fall apart because of a small error on the terms of the ST because the system is so complex. When I played at Gen Con this summer the ST was a ROCK STAR. He actually simplified the system just a bit. He had printed out laminated cards for every player with our combat tricks and dice pools on them. And STILL, the 4-hour session was 1 hour of role play and 3 hours of combat. It wasn't unusual for a player to flip through their cards for 10 minutes trying to decide if it was time to make a decisive attack or not. And all but 1 player at the table had at least played 3e before (but not necessarily Dragon Bloods.) While playing my heart just keep sinking because that morning I had played in a very fun Pathfinder 2e game, and, given the choice between the systems there isn't one. At 40, with adult players, I cannot play Exalted 3e nor do I have the time to do all of the work to make it playable for the other adults I game with. (For the record we don't play Pathfinder either.)

    But Exalted Essense has me VERY hyped. I am really excited and cannot wait for the news to start trickling in. I am one of those who still buys all of the Kickstarters (I have a bit of fatigue when it comes to the MOTW Drivethrurpg products), but it will be nice to buy an exalted product that I will actually be able to play And I know I said it before, but I have so much faith in the Fabolous Dixie Cochran that I am sure this product will be suppurative.

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  • Morangias
    replied
    Originally posted by Navar View Post
    Then 3e came out and the Kickstarter suffered so many delays. We still stayed hyped, but when we received the final product we all examined it and collectively cringed. We tried to muddle through it, but after a couple of combats that lasted for more than 1 session, we decided that it wasn't for us. I thought maybe it was just our group. I have now played a few times with others though (online and with OP at cons) and I know it wasn't. The truth is that 3e is not a playable system for me and any of the groups I have been around. I have gone through some of the stages of grief over this game that I have loved so much.
    The thing about 3e is, it actually does what it does quite well, but what it does is definitely not for everybody, or even for most people.

    Dunno if you're familiar with the complexity vs depth dilemma in game design. Simply put, complexity is how many things the player has to keep in mind when making their decisions, and depth is how many meaningful choices and strategies the game offers. Ideally, you want maximum depth with minimum complexity, but some degree of complexity is unavoidable, especially if you really want a lot of depth. Finding the right balance between the two is an art.

    In that context, 2e had very high complexity, but very little depth, in that the optimal way to play was to put up the so-called 2/7 filter Combo in every round and maintain a constant offense without mote expenditure, and if two characters with that build clashed, the fight was determined by a combination of who has the bigger mote pool and who can stunt better. 3e has significantly upped the depth, but it's done nothing to reduce the complexity - in fact, it has increased it!

    If I had 3e ten years ago, when I was younger, had more time and more readily available players, I'd have loved that stuff. But now that I'm having trouble gathering my team every two months and rarely can count on more than a couple hours of prep time, it just doesn't work. Last time I tried running a campaign, I managed to keep players invested and the dice rolling for two sessions, then ran one more well received session that was nevertheless almost dice-free, then on my fourth session I tried running a combat and it was an utter disaster because no player could remember half the combat Charms they had, and they still curbstomped the opponent because I forgot to give him a couple bread and butter survivability Charms and messed up the timing on what was supposed to be his big "gotcha" trick, allowing players to counter it easily.

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