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  • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

    You know, this is a kind of power creep that has its frustrations but at least makes a modicum of sense when comparing different types of Exalted, but I find totally absurd in Star Wars fandom and game design when it seems to be present in no other form of Star Wars media.

    Nowhere are the Jedi portrayed as people who develop a highly broad array of skills, and Force powers are very uncommonly powerful enough to overwhelm all forms of opposition.

    "Jedi are better than non-Jedi", unless you want to fly off of Tattooine, I suppose. Then you need to go trawling through bars for somebody who knows how to fly a fucking ship, because it seems as though that's a skill you didn't have the time to develop in addition to knowing the ways of the Force and honing your fencing.

    Remember the Clone Wars cartoon? The one Genndy Tartakofsky did? That was pretty cool, wasn't it. The most recent Honest Trailer recapped it, people should check that out if they want a reacquaintance.

    Remember how that cartoon depicted an alien bounty hunter whose unique physiology made him an enormous hassle to deal with and portrayed General Grievous as an absolute killing machine even in the face of multiple Jedi?

    Hard to fly off a planet when you don't own a space craft, and hiring an experienced smuggler crew and their specialized ship to get you somewhere while you are in a situation where you will probably need to evade the law to get there isn't exactly the same thing as hiring a generic space taxi. In general they were actually portrayed as having a fairly broad set of mundane skills they were supposed to learn to be considered competent enough to be a knight (Personal combat skills unrelated to lightsabers like how to use blasters, diplomacy, military strategy, how to dog fight in star fighters, how to investigate for a variety of crimes, enough familiarity with technology to know uncommon knowledge like the fact that starships have a separate computer for tracking fuel that erasing your navigation computer to hide where you have traveled doesn't touch) in TCW on top of learning force powers. At one point an undercover jedi who has to completely avoid using force powers still managed to be one of the most competent people present among a group consisting of people considered to be among the best bounty hunters in the galaxy. So it is definitely not just games where they are portrayed as being vastly more competent then all but the most elite of normies decked out in a bunch of high tech goodies to equalize against the edge they get from the force.


    Exalted Whose Name is Carved in Leaves of Jade

    Senator of the Greater Chamber

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    • Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

      I acknowledge that this is a solution to the particular problem, but I think it creates too many other problems. In-universe my PC isn't special to the point of being twice as strong as the strongest DB right off chargen. Or at least not to the point where I feel like my character is just a completely different thing from what the NPCs are. I can 100% deal with it if my character is stronger than most other DBs, if I built them to be the best at something there shouldn't be a lot of others who match them there, but they should be drastically better than people who are supposedly their peers, or at least close.

      Maybe there could be something introduced like...concentrated dragon blood or something? So like, some DBs are just boosted like that? So the Empress could be one along with a few other people maybe? I dunno.
      Double-Dragon-Blooded, or "Exalted of Exalted" sounds as bad as Terrestrial Half-Castes.

      Either you ARE Chosen of the Dragons, or you AREN'T. No halfsies. No double-Exaltation.


      Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

      My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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      • I think also it's too big a fluff change for Essence.


        I play...
        Kovan, actor, librarian, sorcerer, great bear, Lunar Elder from the First Age
        Thutmose-Osiris, seventh son of a seventh son, descendant of the Supreme Deity Sukhmet, renegade demigod and bearer of the Ghoul-Banishing Bow. Also bright green.

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        • Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
          Anakin being an excellent general,
          I'm curious if the Clone Wars series depicted Jedi military leadership as anything more sophisticated than being the tip of the spear.

          What would have been Anakin's Battle of Austerlitz, the thing that shows his Jedi superiority over Ackbar or Holdo?


          I have approximate knowledge of many things.
          Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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          • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

            I'm curious if the Clone Wars series depicted Jedi military leadership as anything more sophisticated than being the tip of the spear.

            What would have been Anakin's Battle of Austerlitz, the thing that shows his Jedi superiority over Ackbar or Holdo?
            The best thing he did was probably the time he ambushed Grievous in an asteroid field via the unorthodox tactic of hiding a bunch of AT-TEs on asteroids opposite of his fleet and having them blast the undefended rears of Grievous's capital ships once the focused energy into their forward shields to defend against Anakin's visible forces. It let him take out a fleet that was superior to his own in terms of power without that much in the way of loses for a fight that was basically 2 on 1 in numbers.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywBZNZEr8q8
            Last edited by Mizu; 05-07-2020, 12:32 AM.


            Exalted Whose Name is Carved in Leaves of Jade

            Senator of the Greater Chamber

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            • Originally posted by Chausse View Post

              I'm to sure we understand each other. What do you think we mean when we say "the NPC's can be re adjustable" ? Because my proposition is to have the ST adjusting the difficulty depending on the context.

              I'm pretty sure it will not make us have an agreement, but I remember we argued over "Is it possible to give more actions to an Elder Sidereal in order to make him a solo Circle boss ?". I think it's a bit of the same case. I don't think a Sidereal Elder should always be a Solo Circle Boss for Solars. I think it's good if the Exalted system allows you to do it for the specific occurrences where you want to do it.
              That kind of thing, for me, messes with the verisimilitude of the setting or story. Like say you were running a mortals game where one of the character's father was challenged to a duel by a powerful Solar warrior for some great prize, and lost. A way that character could progress with his vendetta is to go after that Solar, challenge them to single combat, and beat them in a classic, iconic cycle of revenge/violence family honour kind of story.

              If I was running that though, the last thing I'd want to do is completely gimp this supposedly exceptionally powerful Dawn caste down to the point where the mortal player could just beat them down in a fair fight. Just because it's the narrative arc that might take doesn't mean that it doesn't really make sense? Without some kind of in-universe explanation to help balance the scales, anyway.

              I'd much rather the setting be changed and presented in a different way so as to have a flat power curve and have it make sense, than to give the PCs or certain NPCs a special status that made them very different. Or at least if you have to do that lampshade it somehow, like somehow x-person fused their souls with a powerful demon to warrant them being set apart.

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              • Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

                That kind of thing, for me, messes with the verisimilitude of the setting or story. Like say you were running a mortals game where one of the character's father was challenged to a duel by a powerful Solar warrior for some great prize, and lost. A way that character could progress with his vendetta is to go after that Solar, challenge them to single combat, and beat them in a classic, iconic cycle of revenge/violence family honour kind of story.

                If I was running that though, the last thing I'd want to do is completely gimp this supposedly exceptionally powerful Dawn caste down to the point where the mortal player could just beat them down in a fair fight. Just because it's the narrative arc that might take doesn't mean that it doesn't really make sense? Without some kind of in-universe explanation to help balance the scales, anyway.

                I'd much rather the setting be changed and presented in a different way so as to have a flat power curve and have it make sense, than to give the PCs or certain NPCs a special status that made them very different. Or at least if you have to do that lampshade it somehow, like somehow x-person fused their souls with a powerful demon to warrant them being set apart.
                I don't think we'll convince each other much at that point because we already had a discussion on this topic, and I think we each have our own reasons to stay by our position.

                I'm just going to argue 2 things :

                1) I'm not arguing to change the system every time there is a possible character arc. I'm arguing having multiple resolution system that can fit different kind of narration would help solve the whole topic debated over many pages of "How do we make DB PC's fun to play with Solar PC's if the DB are much weaker than the Solar"

                2) This kind of things already exist in the core system. The Battlegroup system is literally this kind of feature, that helps the ST adjust the system to whatever the challenge the PC are facing. And while people argue over the quality of the implementation of this feature, I think most people who played Ex3 are happy that this feature exist, and I don't think it breaks that much verisimilitude. Because this feature has already been used doesn't necessarily mean it's a good idea to re-use it on every other aspect of the system, but I think it's an option worth considering with discussions that goes into "How could it feel like and how would it accomplish what we want it to accomplish ?"


                My homebrew (Leave comments if you want to help improve) : A quick recap of all the pools and stats for Quick Exalted 3E characters

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                • Battle Groups is a good example, though it's a somewhat specific thing that builds on genre-tropes, and also the fact that people are somewhat aware of the fact that 1 Solar vs 100 mortal spods is unrunnable.

                  Still, I see your point.

                  Essentially, I think that this kind of thing is potentially viable, it just has to be done quite carefully. Which is a point JohnDoe made earlier; there's somewhat of an issue around presentation.


                  I play...
                  Kovan, actor, librarian, sorcerer, great bear, Lunar Elder from the First Age
                  Thutmose-Osiris, seventh son of a seventh son, descendant of the Supreme Deity Sukhmet, renegade demigod and bearer of the Ghoul-Banishing Bow. Also bright green.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

                    I'd much rather the setting be changed and presented in a different way so as to have a flat power curve and have it make sense, than to give the PCs or certain NPCs a special status that made them very different. Or at least if you have to do that lampshade it somehow, like somehow x-person fused their souls with a powerful demon to warrant them being set apart.
                    Okay, maybe I need to phrase this differently: if you place the Exalted on a relatively level playing field for certain things, such as duels, it doesn't break the setting or the lore. If you give them a rough degree of parity in capability, it doesn't break the setting or the lore.

                    Look, I'm coming at this from 2e. Dragon-Blooded were completely weaksauce against Solars and totally at their mercy; the lore actually changed to fit this, to the point where the Usurpation didn't make any damn sense. 3e avoided this, largely by making Dragon-Blooded highly competent and taking advantage of the swinginess of the dice pools. But even though a Dragon-Blooded can kill a Solar now - Tepet Arada has done so twice in the fiction, and I personally saw a DB with his stats kill an Essence 2 Solar, then watched an Essence 1 DB go toe-to-toe with an Essence 1 Solar - Solars still have access to top-tier sorcery and crafting, to Wyld-Shaping, to vast capabilities with Evocations. Solars have so many advantages that parity in this one area - even if the Exalted Host as a whole matches or exceeds them on certain areas - doesn't hurt them.


                    Neall Raemonn Price
                    Beleaguered Scion Developer

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                    • Being Exalted is the baseline in Exalted. You cannot ever ignore another Exalt as a threat, period.

                      And if we assume only Exalts are PCs, rather than going from an assumption of mortals and then the Exalted systematically ignoring parts of the mechanical engine, certain things change and parity in the party becomes way easier to achieve. If you divorce NPCs from that power curve and from using PC mechanics, you can do a lot more to help Storytellers match conflicts to the party and reduce cognitive load.
                      Last edited by Neall; 05-07-2020, 08:12 AM.


                      Neall Raemonn Price
                      Beleaguered Scion Developer

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                      • Originally posted by Neall View Post
                        And if we assume only Exalts are PCs, rather than going from an assumption of mortals and then the Exalted systematically ignoring parts of the mechanical engine, certain things change and parity in the party becomes way easier to achieve. If you divorce NPCs from that power curve and from using PC mechanics, you can do a lot more to help Storytellers match conflicts to the party and reduce cognitive load.
                        That really seems like a clever approach. I like 3e's idea of building the entire world and then making your heroes break the rules to show how awesome they are, but I think from a design perspective this puts many limitations and contradictions on the game.

                        I don't know how this will go, but I'm curious and positive to see how this will work out.
                        Last edited by Chausse; 05-07-2020, 08:40 AM.


                        My homebrew (Leave comments if you want to help improve) : A quick recap of all the pools and stats for Quick Exalted 3E characters

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                        • My ideal would be for it to be like 4th ed DnD, where a powerful wizard or warrior NPC used completely different rules to your PC (and rules designed to be a fun encounter rather than be for someone who fights 20 combats and is run by a player doing nothing else*), but still felt appropriate thematically for what they were; I think players actually find it easier to accept than for NPCs to be kinda-based on the PC rules but cheat with extra rules-breaking stuff to make up for the fact they've got a third of the charms.
                          Personally, I feel much more comfortable using a completely-different-rules-NPC from the book than make a character kinda-but-not-quite based on the PC character creation system.

                          But that's just me, maybe other people would actually much more prefer things quite close.
                          Also, close is maybe easier to make NPCs yourself.
                          Also the book may not have room.

                          Probably saying flat-out "NPCs do not use the same rules, this is a conceit necessary to have a good game, suspend your disbelief" (which people don't seem bothered with in DnD) is 80% of the issue, but traditionally Exalted hasn't wanted to do.

                          *Neall's comment makes me optimistic, because I did find running high-level NPC Exalts in groups in 3rd ed to have a lot of cognitive load, compared to running a CR15 Wizard with 5 spells and his two CR12 Demons with 3 abilities each.
                          Last edited by The Wizard of Oz; 05-07-2020, 08:41 AM.


                          I play...
                          Kovan, actor, librarian, sorcerer, great bear, Lunar Elder from the First Age
                          Thutmose-Osiris, seventh son of a seventh son, descendant of the Supreme Deity Sukhmet, renegade demigod and bearer of the Ghoul-Banishing Bow. Also bright green.

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                          • To be honest, the more I hear, the less I like.

                            It feels like this thing is an attempt to force game balance into this setting, which is absolute nonsense.

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                            • Originally posted by Marcob View Post
                              To be honest, the more I hear, the less I like.

                              It feels like this thing is an attempt to force game balance into this setting, which is absolute nonsense.
                              I think it would have been very unexpected of a lite-Exalted version to keep or increase "game imbalance", so I'm sorry for you but sadly I don't think this should come as a surprise.
                              Last edited by Chausse; 05-07-2020, 11:35 AM.


                              My homebrew (Leave comments if you want to help improve) : A quick recap of all the pools and stats for Quick Exalted 3E characters

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Marcob View Post
                                To be honest, the more I hear, the less I like.

                                It feels like this thing is an attempt to force game balance into this setting, which is absolute nonsense.
                                Which I don't understand the sentiment unless again, there's a particualr dictate on what the power curve is even supposed to be that's being flattened, or we assume that the setting shoudl be reflective of PC mechanics toa a T.


                                And stuff.
                                My DeviantArt Page // My tumblr // Exalted 3e Houserules

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