Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Exalted: Essence

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #76
    I don't care for 3E at all. None of my group Exalted players (who have all played since 1E) have played the game in years or bought any of the products because of it. This is a welcome thing to me and I look forward to buying and trying it.




    My Map of Third Edition Creation in a First Edition Style

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

      The most interesting part should be the one that has the least to do with the actual crafters?
      Well generally the crafter is going to get it, but I guess not always. The thing is, as John says, getting the magical materials can be fun plot (like when my PCs got the soul of Chejop Kejak to make into a staff, or when I beat up the champion of the Thunderbirds and took his blue jade batons which I then reforged into a prosthetic hand as mine got chopped off), sitting in your forge rolling lots of dice isn't. At least, that is my experience with Crafting (something I've tried with multiple characters and so far been quite disappointed with. I ought to give up and stop trying I guess, but yet I keep trying).


      I run... Lunars: The Apocalypse! Exalted 3rd edition. Fimbulwinter is upon the world as an Ice Age begins, and only six young Lunar heroes have a chance of saving humanity.

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Lioness View Post

        Scratch building NPCs and discarding them because they've been used. That's behaviour I associate with myself when my OCD is being challenging. I'm not saying you have a mental illness just that you appear to be approaching this game (and possibly others) in a way which practically guarantees diminished returns and is inviting some serious burnout.
        The amount of prep I referred to was in understanding every attacker’s charms - my use of the word “stated” is probably what threw you off and that was sloppy wording on my part. Understanding and picking the charms took time and effort, to a degree where it felt like work. And, like I amended in the very comment you quoted, I did try and re-use them, but it felt oddly same-y and boring for me to run. If you have a fix for running what I think is a dodgy combat system, in a game I am praising every other aspect of, I’d happily hear it.

        It’s also why I was a little taken aback by your, “you've already made up your mind” comment. In an exchange of opinions, I really can’t see the point of that, other than to mark me as needlessly pigheaded. You making links between this one example and OCD also seems a little harsh and quick on the trigger. I normally wouldn’t address this, but I am getting some vibes of frustration from you, a moderator. Maybe I am misreading things, maybe it is something else. Or maybe I am coming across in a way that warrants frustration. And if that is how I come across to a moderator, it sounds like I need to fix how I come across in writing. Hence why I am raising the issue.
        Last edited by Jang; 12-08-2019, 09:19 PM. Reason: Clarification

        Comment


        • #79
          You don't like Ex3's combat system and I do respect that. The part of this conversation that's frustrated me is that there's an underlying assertion that I'm trying to keep you playing 3rd edition when I just commented on an aspect of your encounter planning that would still be a negative if you liked the system.
          Last edited by Lioness; 12-08-2019, 10:11 PM.


          Onyx Path Forum Moderator
          Please spare a thought for updating the Exalted wiki.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by Lioness View Post
            You don't like Ex3's combat system and I do respect that. The part of this conversation that's frustrated me is that there's an underlying assertion that I'm trying to keep you playing 3rd edition when I just commented on an aspect of your encounter planning that would still be a negative if you liked the system.
            Lioness, nobody said that. Nobody even implied that. I don't know where this is coming from! I'm actually kinda annoyed by this!

            As far as I can read, all that has gone on is that Jang said: "this is why I don't like 3e, why I don't play it, and why I'm exited by Exalted: Essence" and then got a bit miffed that you dismissed his concerns and conflated his style of making NPC's with a mental disorder, even though the connection was unintentional. That's all that is going on.

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Lioness View Post
              The part of this conversation that's frustrated me is that there's an underlying assertion that I'm trying to keep you playing 3rd edition [...]
              It is kind of reassuring to see that the vibes I was getting weren’t just my imagination, but... I never thought you were doing that, I wasn’t trying to convey that you were, and, looking back over our exchange with that in mind, I still have no earthly idea how you got that impression?

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post

                Well generally the crafter is going to get it, but I guess not always. The thing is, as John says, getting the magical materials can be fun plot (like when my PCs got the soul of Chejop Kejak to make into a staff, or when I beat up the champion of the Thunderbirds and took his blue jade batons which I then reforged into a prosthetic hand as mine got chopped off)
                That's all still part of it. "all artifacts require high-quality tools and significant amounts of the magical materials; most also demand various exotic or mystical reagents such as frozen flame, behemoth bones, the captured love of a raksha noble, or other such wonders." It's not a heavily systemic thing sure (and never was before), but it's the parameters for the set of conditions that the Storyteller designates before a superior crafting project can even begin. No Artifact can be made from a box of scraps.

                It's still a part of the process that involves no actual crafting, although a Storyteller might elect to designate that the prospective crafter needs to personally assess any such materials in order to be sure of what they can be used towards.

                Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz
                sitting in your forge rolling lots of dice isn't.
                I will admit that while I like the crafting system as the basis for stringing together a series of scenarios as part of composing the overall narrative of a crafter's life and how it prioritises the context of the results, the basic system is still limited in its capacity to represent the process of crafting itself. One listens to accounts that real life crafters give or watches competitive reality shows such as British Bake-Off or Forged in Fire (or maybe even has personal experience of doing that stuff) and gets the point that these things start off with a creative vision and then becomes a series of decision making and problem solving to actually bring it to life. In that context, I should think that the process necessary to convert a soul into a staff should be the most engaging thing about being a crafter, and apart from the incentive to creatively stunt every single roll made on it to maximize all of those very necessary dice the system remains somewhat limited in how to do it.

                That said, I'm not sure how effectively Storyteller is suited to representing that side of the process. While I have basically no familiarity with any other game system, I'm also not sure of how any might be capable of doing so, and if the result might not end up being excessively convoluted. At times like this, I think back to the time somebody talked about the idea of trying to use the Storytelling System to represent playing baseball in the New World of Darkness, and how ultimately no process based in a dice rolling engine was going to look or feel very much like playing baseball (although that person used the point to interrogate why exactly somebody would want to represent that in the system in the first place, an easier dismissal than something as prominent in this game as crafting is supposed to be).

                But that's moving far off topic.


                I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                  The bit that actually involves the rest of the party and engaging with the game world?

                  Yes.

                  The bit where the crafter begs for downtime to spend twenty minutes rolling by themselves as they consult five pages of Craft Charms (FRONT AND BACK) is the least interesting part.
                  Why should the person who made Craft their Supernal Ability not get the most interesting part of making things?

                  Is this an objection also to Sorcery? Or combat?

                  And the contrivance to try to shoehorn in some basic objectives is the second least interesting part.
                  Shoehorning in basic objectives?

                  Basic objectives are making other characters feel more strongly about you, benefitting one of your own Intimacies or accomplishing some goal in the game.

                  If a craft project is doing none of those things then what is it even there for?

                  Originally posted by JohnDoe244
                  I mean, if you're an Athletics Supernal who needs to leap a ten-foot gap over a bottomless chasm lest you fall to certain doom... then the forboding journey to that chasm and the reward that awaits on the other side are probably both more interesting than saying "I activate Monkey Leap Technique".
                  Well, presumably the foreboding journey also consists of a series of Athletics actions, possibly with some variety, such that the entire thing together is akin to the making of an intricately designed sword.

                  Still, this might just be an essential frustration with dice-based roleplaying systems; that they're better at approaching various activities as a means to an end and simplifying the process in a manner that overlooks the intricacies that make it thrilling to truly do those things.


                  I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                  Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                  https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                    Why should the person who made Craft their Supernal Ability not get the most interesting part of making things?
                    Twenty minutes of trying to work out how your craft charms work isn't fun or interesting. My old Twilight player found it quite annoying, he just wanted to make cool stuff, and I had to tell him that first he needed to gather the craft xp, then use all these charms. I ended up writing out the final combination of craft charms for him:

                    Flawless Handiwork Method (re-roll 10s)

                    Bright-Forging Prana (1/story):

                    [Supreme Masterwork Focus x3 (double 7s)

                    Experiential Conjuring of the Void (1 success and 10 extra dice, all non-charm)

                    Unbroken Image Focus (5 extra successes plus 1 per success rolled before double 9s, all non-charm)]

                    So, in conclusion:
                    Roll 20 dice with re-roll 10s

                    7s, 8s and 9s are each worth 3 successes, 10s are worth 4

                    Then roll another 10 dice with re-roll 10s and double 7s
                    (so they're just worth 2 each this time)

                    Now add 6 successes

                    Now take away 4 (because the roll is difficulty 5)

                    You need 100 total, and can't roll more than 6 times.


                    Is this an objection also to Sorcery? Or combat?
                    No, because combat tends to involve everyone, and sorcery is much simpler than Craft (or combat, obviously).
                    Some people do complain combat is too complex of course.

                    (Oh, though actually I do see people complain that sorcerous workings often seem to just be squatting in downtime rolling dice and then something amazing happens. I'm okay with that, see below.*)

                    This is why I'm looking forward to Exalted: Essence, as I think my players would appreciate a simpler system (well, they're mixed obviously).

                    Now, when it comes to Craft there are different ways to do it. You could just do the 2nd ed system: you need a lot of downtime, make a roll. There were a few objections (A: If you have say a year of downtime, you could churn out artefacts in a dull way, and B: if you're on adventures to save the world, you never have time to make artefacts. Admittedly I found that even with ex3's much shorter downtimes for Craft).

                    So that's one way Exalted: Essence could go with Craft. Just nice and simple.*

                    *And so yes, you are right:
                    Still, this might just be an essential frustration with dice-based roleplaying systems; that they're better at approaching various activities as a means to an end and simplifying the process in a manner that overlooks the intricacies that make it thrilling to truly do those things.
                    Here, the goal of the crafting system is simply for the end-goal; ie, crafting isn't the interesting bit, it's what you craft. The magic sword, the giant defensive fortress, etc. That's mostly the way Sorcerous Workings work. It's what the guy who played a Twilight in my game wanted. It's the way DnD tends to do it, although DnD's not very good at it as it doesn't bother with anything that's not a magic item.

                    Anyway, a while ago I had a conversation with some of my players about how, if you're going to have an intricate Craft system with different steps, could you make it interesting? And we thought maybe more could be done about the ingredients. In some computer games I find the Crafting system dull, but in others I like it, and this is generally stuff like how after you kill a boss it drops some special ingredient (dragon scales, say) that can make amazing armour.

                    So I was interested to hear this:
                    Originally posted by Kyman201
                    The Crafting system in Scion is pretty excellent. It's like the opposite of the Ex3 Craft System. To build something, you need to accomplish a number of Milestones, and have a Path that justify it. No building of smaller things to get to bigger things. No points to keep track of. Hell, if you spend time obtaining a logical material, that can count towards the project without even rolling.
                    • Hypothetical Path of Exalts parallel: Amilar Harken, who has the Path of "Twilight Exalt", wants to build a sword. This is an entirely mortal weapon, so would probably only require three or so Milestones. Drafting plans with a Close Combat + Intellect roll would be one Milestone, the Night Caste using their contacts to get some quality iron (Or Chiaroscuro Glass, if you're feeling exotic) would be another Milestone, and a scene of working in his forge would count as another Milestone. Bing bang boom, he made a sword. For something like a Daiklave, he'd need more Milestones, and would need to work harder to get more exotic ingredients.
                    But this is just someone's description of a Crafting system, I'd need to see the detail for how it worked.

                    Certainly, if the point of Exalted: Essence is to be simpler, then any system beyond "time+materials+roll" might be too complex, and maybe better suited for the rumoured (or confirmed? I think confirmed) alternate Crafting system in the Storyteller's Companion. The above sounds simple, but I'm not sure if Kyman is simplifying it to explain it.

                    Still, it doesn't sound like Exalted: Essence is boiled all the way down to the way some modern rules-lite systems are, it still has Attribute+Ability combos for example. Which is good, as I don't like systems with no complexity at all (at least for things like combat or social influence) as I find them dull. I just find Exalted about 20% too complex. (Obviously if I thought it was way, way too complex I wouldn't be running it.)


                    Shoehorning in basic objectives?

                    Basic objectives are making other characters feel more strongly about you, benefitting one of your own Intimacies or accomplishing some goal in the game.

                    If a craft project is doing none of those things then what is it even there for?
                    Generating points to make artefacts.

                    I can see that the design goal with the objectives was to make sure people didn't just churn out basic objectives for the points, but crafted in a way that matters. But in my experience, sometimes people do it the way the Devs intended, sometimes people find ways to churn them out for Craft xp and it feels artificial.
                    And of course, sometimes (especially in high-level games) there are simply no basic projects that really need doing, so it's purely a case of "Hmmm, I need a way to generate craft points, what basic projects can I shoehorn in?" and not "What cool ways can I use my basic crafts?"

                    Admittedly, I don't do this, because my Zenith generates 2 gold and 12 silver a day from charms, and my Full Moon has 1679 silver points and 108 gold points on her sheet currently. Their issue is more lacking the time to sit down and make artefacts (which would have been worse in 2nd ed, though at least there wasn't many charms so I wouldn't feel like I'd wasted all this XP on craft).


                    Anyway, Exalted: Essence will definitely need a simpler way to handle it, even if it keeps the idea of needing to have scenes of crafting besides just the final scene of "roll your dice, make your daiklaive".

                    Sigh... the Craft system suckers me in, every time I go "hmmm, maybe I could play a Crafter, surely I could do fun things with this system." I know some players do (not mine, but Alucard for example said he really enjoyed the system). And then I'm frustrated with it. I don't know if that's the nature of the games, or that I play characters with Craft as a secondary thing and it only really works well as a primary thing. Or maybe it's because I have, with Solars, gone down the Craft-xp-generating tree, which some forumites say is a trap.
                    Still, that's not really important when talking about a hypothetical different, simpler, Crafting system, other to maybe inform some things about what not to do. But I'm not entirely sure why I always find I regret making a Crafter, what exactly is wrong with it, so I'm not sure how to inform it.
                    Last edited by The Wizard of Oz; 12-09-2019, 07:45 AM.


                    I run... Lunars: The Apocalypse! Exalted 3rd edition. Fimbulwinter is upon the world as an Ice Age begins, and only six young Lunar heroes have a chance of saving humanity.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      What I think of it ? I reacted with shock and horror to the news. It think this is the worst possible news, (I really cannot think of anything that could be worse except bankruptcy for the developers ) and this might be the death to the line. I am also outraged that this has at all been an idea among the developers when it is so strikingly obvious that what we need, more than anything, is the creation and production of more main splats (we are lacking Abyssals and Sidereals !!!!). I cannot fathom how anyone thinks it is a good idea to waste resources on this pet project before Sidereals and Abyssals ! I simply cannot fathom the thinking behind this outrageous idea and I am incredibly disappointed. This basically means that we cannot expect Abyssals and Sidereals for 3-4 years. Again, what the hell are they thinking? This is so catastrophic ! This is NOT needed ! Alternative rules before we even have rules for important main splats, I don't even understand the logic ! Disaster.
                      Last edited by Magnus K; 12-09-2019, 10:08 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Exalted Essence has its own development team. It's not drawing resources away from Ex3 anymore than Scion or Trinity are by having Exalted writers and developers working on them.


                        Onyx Path Forum Moderator
                        Please spare a thought for updating the Exalted wiki.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Magnus K View Post
                          What I think of it ? I reacted with shock and horror to the news. It think this is the worst possible news, (I really cannot think of anything that could be worse except bankruptcy for the developers ) and this might be the death to the line. I am also outraged that this is has at all been an idea among the developers when it is so strikingly obvious that what we need, more than anything, is the creation and production of more main splats (we are lacking Abyssals and Sidereals !!!!). I cannot fathom how anyone thinks it is a good idea to waste resources on this pet project before Sidereals and Abyssals ! I simply cannot fathom the thinking behind this outrageous idea and I am incredibly disappointing. This basically means that we cannot expect Abyssals and Sidereals for 3-4 years. Again, what the hell are they thinking? This is so catastrophic ! This is NOT needed ! Alternative rules before we even have rules for important main splats, I don't even understand the logic ! Disaster.
                          It's been said upthread, but there's a different development team working on this, so it won't affect the main line. There will be no delays of existing projects due to this one.

                          Also, ExEss will include rules for Abyssals, Infernals, etc. So you'll actually get a rules-light(er) version of the splats you want to play even sooner because of this.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Lioness View Post
                            Exalted Essence has its own development team. It's not drawing resources away from Ex3 anymore than Scion or Trinity are by having Exalted writers and developers working on them.
                            I really don't share Magnus's view point (I could not be more stoked by this -- I can't wait!)... but does that really hold?

                            We've got a bunch of writers who know Exalted well enough to write an entire system book for Exalted.
                            We've got money to pay these writers.
                            These writers have time to write.

                            Surely they could be given work writing books for E3, getting content out quicker?

                            And the same for Scion or Trinity -- time spent working on those books is time not spent working on Exalted.

                            Onyx Path chooses what work to commission from its freelancers, and the freelancers fit those commissions around their other life commitments: there isn't some infinite pool of labor, these books do draw writers away from the Exalted main-line. If you're writing something else instead of Exalted... you're not writing Exalted.

                            Now an argument can be made that the devs want to maintain creative control: they don't want a dozen different freelancers writing half-a-dozen different books, they want manageable projects which they can check balance on, and putting all these writers on too many books too fast is bad for game quality. That's an absolutely valid argument. EE having its own team though... why couldn't they work on the Exalted mainline?


                            Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Magnus K View Post
                              What I think of it ? I reacted with shock and horror to the news. It think this is the worst possible news, (I really cannot think of anything that could be worse except bankruptcy for the developers ) and this might be the death to the line. I am also outraged that this has at all been an idea among the developers when it is so strikingly obvious that what we need, more than anything, is the creation and production of more main splats (we are lacking Abyssals and Sidereals !!!!). I cannot fathom how anyone thinks it is a good idea to waste resources on this pet project before Sidereals and Abyssals ! I simply cannot fathom the thinking behind this outrageous idea and I am incredibly disappointed. This basically means that we cannot expect Abyssals and Sidereals for 3-4 years. Again, what the hell are they thinking? This is so catastrophic ! This is NOT needed ! Alternative rules before we even have rules for important main splats, I don't even understand the logic ! Disaster.
                              You should read the thread.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post

                                It's been said upthread, but there's a different development team working on this, so it won't affect the main line. There will be no delays of existing projects due to this one.

                                Also, ExEss will include rules for Abyssals, Infernals, etc. So you'll actually get a rules-light(er) version of the splats you want to play even sooner because of this.
                                You are right, that is mitigating news to be fair. But as one who has hoped that more resources would be put into the creation of Exalted products, I cannot see how this helps us. Because I read this as it would have been possible to start work on Abyssals or Sidereals but they opted for alternative rules instead. I don't understand it. It is much too soon for alternative rules when the game is so lacking in its main departments. But maybe my reaction is not warranted, but at this point in time, this is certainly how I feel about it. Very disappointed and I got to admit that as an exalted Story Teller waiting patiently for main splats, this just made me incredibly sad.

                                Edit: After having scrolled through the thread, I read nothing there that can assure me that this will not impact the creation and production of main splats after Exigents. If so, and if this alternative rules thing takes precedent over main splats, it would be a tragedy for Exalted in my opinion. A real tragedy.
                                Last edited by Magnus K; 12-09-2019, 10:19 AM.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X