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  • #76
    Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
    Because they’re supposed to be so rare that Exalted doesn’t turn into a mecha anime unless the storyteller and all the players agree that’s what they want to do. So that the vast majority of games set in Creation will never feature a warstrider.

    Because they’re huge.
    That COULD be an attunement bonus though, couldn’t it? Just stack all the effects of a warstrider onto the attunement, and just have the armor be super sized to start out with.

    Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
    You can turn magical armor into power armor with the right evocations, but there’s no turning an armor into a wartstrider through evocations. Not even with a capstone a evocation that grows you and the armor to Legendary Size. Warstriders are just huge out of the gate.
    That’s the point that I’m getting at. Why isn’t Celestial Battle Armor just represented by a five dot artifact? For the same reason warstriders aren’t, because you do things with the power armor that you can’t with regular armor.
    Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
    How many do you need in the present day, and why does it matter if there were hundreds of thousands more of the things in the past?
    I dunno, less than 100 worldwide maybe? Not like the Realms single Dawning Sun Indomitable-class warship, but definitely not so many that they show up everywhere.

    Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
    How?
    By requiring regular craft rolls to keep them in order, and with Craft First Age Artiface, which requires you to have a couple other abilities at 5 And be a sorcerer before you can even start taking dots of it. Or make the rolls with regular craft artifacts at a steep penalty. Also requiring you to socket a hearthstone in it and forgo the mote regen you’d otherwise get. Also all repairs to them cost white points, which even if you had to perform regular maintenance on armor wouldn’t be the case.

    I’m not pulling this out of nowhere, it’s how it worked in first edition, and second edition, and how many of the other first age artifacts work in this edition.

    There aren’t many people who can really afford to be investing a 4-5 dot artifact suit of armor, and hearthstone, and an expert exalted sorcerer savant on just one person. For the ones that can it sets them apart to make them even more terrifying.

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    • #77
      Do we have a first age artifice weapon for personal scale? Or armor? I only remember some robots, the seige weapons, and I think a prosthetic. And of course the Warstriders, and ships and such.


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      • #78
        I still want an answer to the question of “how many complete (or near-complete) sets of top-quality super-armor does Lookshy or the Realm need to have in the Second Age, and how important is it that there might have been hundreds of more sets back in the First Age”?


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        • #79
          Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
          By requiring regular craft rolls to keep them in order, and with Craft First Age Artiface, which requires you to have a couple other abilities at 5 And be a sorcerer before you can even start taking dots of it. Or make the rolls with regular craft artifacts at a steep penalty. Also requiring you to socket a hearthstone in it and forgo the mote regen you’d otherwise get. Also all repairs to them cost white points, which even if you had to perform regular maintenance on armor wouldn’t be the case.

          I’m not pulling this out of nowhere, it’s how it worked in first edition, and second edition, and how many of the other first age artifacts work in this edition.
          As has been said, multiple times, all of those are problems. They do not justify a special category, they balance a special category. Because you could add all of those on top of a bog-standard 3 dot daiklave. That would make it worse than bog-standard, not some special revered relic.

          So, again, the question is not "what do you slap on to balance artifacts in this class" but "What makes this class special enough to require the balancing factors."

          Originally posted by Epee102 View Post
          Do we have a first age artifice weapon for personal scale? Or armor? I only remember some robots, the seige weapons, and I think a prosthetic. And of course the Warstriders, and ships and such.
          There are also some vehicles, mechanical birds, and a mechanical snake. The prosthetic isn't FAA I don't think.

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          • #80
            I can’t remember any FAA prosthetic. They’re not setting breaking.


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            • #81
              Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
              I still want an answer to the question of “how many complete (or near-complete) sets of top-quality super-armor does Lookshy or the Realm need to have in the Second Age, and how important is it that there might have been hundreds of more sets back in the First Age”?
              Dragon Armor isn’t just top quality armor, in the same way that Warstriders aren’t just a different kind of siege weapon. But like I said maybe the realm has like 40-50, Lookshy 20? I don’t think it’s necessary for there to have been that many sets back in the first age except to explain why after the great contagion and Balorian crusade there’s still a bunch.

              Look, here’s the thing. One of the four paragraphs detailing what Dragonblooded of the second age are like is this


              An Ancient Arsenal
              As the rulers of the world by right of conquest, the Dragon-Blooded hold the lion’s share of all surviving First Age weapons: their greatest ships mount implosion bows and lightning ballistae on the bows; their most elite soldiers go into battle clad in ancient Dragon Armor; in the event of absolute calamity, the Realm and the Seventh Legion may even awaken and deploy their scant handful of unstoppable warstriders.
              Implosion bows are weapons that can obliterate half an army with a single shot, warstriders are massive mecha that can punch through a fortress wall. What’s special about Dragon Armor to be included in that? They didn’t mention daiklaves or anything, it’s specifically ancient artifacts from the previous age that are nearly impossible to reproduce. Yes, even harder than five dot artifacts. It’s easier to make a five dot suit of armor than an implosion bow, or warstrider.
              Last edited by DrLoveMonkey; 12-31-2019, 05:40 PM.

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              • #82
                Originally posted by Exthalion View Post
                So, again, the question is not "what do you slap on to balance artifacts in this class" but "What makes this class special.
                I TRIED making a thread to figure out that exact question.

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

                  I TRIED making a thread to figure out that exact question.
                  Modularity is one option that comes to mind. Like I said earlier in the thread, the other could be tying in a mechanic for spending craft XP to fast track charm unlocks and resets on powerful charms. Another could be providing powerful effects below essence curve in exchange for the aforementioned limitations.

                  Really, at this point, I think it is time to stop discussing how to classify this armor or split hairs over differences between it and Mela's coil. Instead, lets talk over how to make a base mechanic that feels like armor that costs the GDP of a small nation to maintain and field.


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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
                    I TRIED making a thread to figure out that exact question.
                    I think your suggestion of diversity of abilities, upthread, has potential. The Dragon Armor definitely has a wider range of powers than I think I'd tend to associate with a more typical artifact, many of them not really linked to the themes of the magical materials they're built from. Non-First Age Artifice artifacts, even the high-dot-level ones, tend to be more focused.

                    However, the wording in Arms of the Chosen's box on First Age Artifice specially calls out "power armor" as being an example (emphasis mine). To me, that suggests that the authors were thinking specifically of the strength-boosting elements of the armor. While I don't think it's impossible to say "power armor" and just mean armor that has power in it, I think by far the more common usage in genre terms is armor that uses that power specifically to boost the wearer's strength.

                    So, I'll return to my earlier answer - I think what makes Dragon Armor First Age Artifice specifically is the strength-enhancing abilities. Even if it had no other features besides that, I'd rate it as First Age Artifice. That's not to say that all the other stuff isn't also a good justification for First Age Artifice, of course - I think the diversity of powers is probably also a good reason to classify it that way. But the strength enhancement is probably most central. That, in turn, suggests that the strength enhancement features are probably the most fertile ground for evocation design. Contrary to my earlier suggestion, I think I'd break the Exomuscular Fibers ability from the 2e writeup into two, or even three, separate evocations: one to boost strength for purposes of damage and feats of strength, one to increase movement speed, and possibly a third that boosted jumping specifically. The latter isn't specifically in the 2e writeup, of course, but boosted jumping is a pretty iconic ability for power armor, I'd say, so including it makes sense.

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
                      That COULD be an attunement bonus though, couldn’t it? Just stack all the effects of a warstrider onto the attunement, and just have the armor be super sized to start out with.
                      No attunement bonus would be that powerful, and certainly not for non-FAA artifact armor.

                      If an attunement bonus COULD approach being that powerful, with crafting-roll maintenance used as a counterbalance, that would be sufficient for your powered armor without demanding that armor be FAA.


                      you do things with the power armor that you can’t with regular armor.
                      Like what? Unison acts like power armor, with its ability to enhance feats of strength and awareness (as if you were using a sensor suite) and poison resistance.


                      By requiring regular craft rolls to keep them in order
                      Like I said, Stormcaller’s demon-appeasing cooldown for certain Evocations, but replacing ritual appeasement of a spirit with crafting rolls to repair damage.

                      Heck, why can’t a set of Dragon Armor draw their powers from bound demons like Stormcaller does, and so Lookshy formed a support team of priests instead of mechanics to keep the armors working?


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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                        No attunement bonus would be that powerful, and certainly not for non-FAA artifact armor.

                        If an attunement bonus COULD approach being that powerful, with crafting-roll maintenance used as a counterbalance, that would be sufficient for your powered armor without demanding that armor be FAA.
                        Okay, good. So what would Dragon Armor have to have to be considered FAA? It's lumped in with 3 other examples of First Age Artiface, the description in the sentence before it talks about "surviving First Age weapons", they're items of First Age Artiface. What abilities do they have to justify that distinction?

                        Originally posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
                        So, I'll return to my earlier answer - I think what makes Dragon Armor First Age Artifice specifically is the strength-enhancing abilities. Even if it had no other features besides that, I'd rate it as First Age Artifice. That's not to say that all the other stuff isn't also a good justification for First Age Artifice, of course - I think the diversity of powers is probably also a good reason to classify it that way. But the strength enhancement is probably most central. That, in turn, suggests that the strength enhancement features are probably the most fertile ground for evocation design. Contrary to my earlier suggestion, I think I'd break the Exomuscular Fibers ability from the 2e writeup into two, or even three, separate evocations: one to boost strength for purposes of damage and feats of strength, one to increase movement speed, and possibly a third that boosted jumping specifically. The latter isn't specifically in the 2e writeup, of course, but boosted jumping is a pretty iconic ability for power armor, I'd say, so including it makes sense.
                        What about something like this?



                        Most Terrifying Armor of the Air Dragon (Artifact § ●●●●)

                        Unlike the suits of Celestial power armor, which were tailor made to the specific exalt wearing them after decades of studying their particular fighting styles, the Armor of the Immaculate Dragons, or Dragon Armor, was designed to be passed down through generations of users. The Most Terrifying Armor of the Air Dragon uses feathersteel and blue jade to reduce weight, and was designed for fast attacks and aerial assaults.

                        Dragon armor requires that a hearthstone be slotted into it to function, although doing so denies the user the benefits of that stone's mote regeneration. Every 20 hours of use the armor requires maintenence, which takes the form of a scene where the user makes an (Intelligence + Craft) roll at difficulty 3, or 6 if the user does not possess Craft (First Age Artiface). Materials for this upkeep are only affordable to characters with Resources ●●●●+.

                        Attunement: 5m
                        Type: Light (+5 soak, Hardness 3, Mobility Penalty -1)
                        Tags: None
                        Hearthstone slots: 3

                        Evocations

                        Upon attuning to the Immaculate Air Armor several enchantments worked into the artifact activate automatically.

                        Filtration Baffles: Purifying runes inscribed into the face mask of the armor filter toxins and disease from the air as they pass through, granting a +2 bonus to resistance rolls against poison or disease. The mask may also be fully closed, providing one hour of fresh air, after which it must be left open for ten minutes to regenerate.

                        Crystal Visor: Rather than an open slot to peer from Dragon Armor allows vision through finely crafted crystal lenses. These enhance the vision of the wearer, granting a +2 bonus to all vision related awareness rolls.

                        Exomuscular Fibers: The armor itself moves and enhances the wearer's limbs. Add +1 strength for the purposes of Feats of Strength, including +1 die to the roll. The wearer also enjoys +2 to movement rolls.

                        Artifact Gauntlet/Boots: The wearer's unarmed attacks are treated as light artifact weapons.


                        Enhanced Essence Vision
                        Cost: 2m; Mins: Essence 1
                        Type: Simple
                        Keywords: None
                        Duration: Scene
                        Prerequisites: None

                        By learning to energize the crystal visor with essence, the wearer may enhance their vision even further. The wearer's vision pierces all obstruction up to solid barriers an inch thick, ignoring all environmental penalties to sight including darkness, and allowing normally impossible feats such as seeing through a pillar of pitch black smoke. This vision also ignores the tactical shroud of other Dragon Armors, allowing for better coordination.


                        Tactical Shroud
                        Cost: 6m; Mins: Essence 2
                        Type: Simple
                        Keywords: None
                        Duration: Scene
                        Prerequisites: None

                        When properly attuned with the right essence the silhouette of the armor begins to blur and fade. For the duration of the scene all attempts to locate the character by sight suffer a -3 penalty. The wearer is also assumed to have enough cover to attempt to hide even in widely exposed areas.


                        Astrological Occlusion Field
                        Cost: 5m1wp; Mins: Essence 2
                        Type: Simple
                        Keywords: None
                        Duration: One Day
                        Prerequisites: Tactical Shroud.

                        Astrological symbols worked into all pieces of the armor allow it to disrupt astrology and probing divination magic. Add 2 to the difficulty of any roll to find the wearer or anything they are carrying with such magic. If no roll exists for the effect the caster must make a (Perception + Occult) roll, opposed by the wearer's (Wits + Stealth), the wearer adds (Essence) non-charm dice to this roll.

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                        • #87
                          Why isn’t Crystal Visor rolled into the sensory Evocation, and why isn’t the strength effect an Evocation with more Oomph?

                          Does including those two modest effects in the attunement bonus really justify making a new special category with all of those downsides?

                          Would it be unreasonable for an elite soldier, who is specially trained to use that armor, to know two more of its Evocations?


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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                            Why isn’t Crystal Visor rolled into the sensory Evocation, and why isn’t the strength effect an Evocation with more Oomph?

                            Does including those two modest effects in the attunement bonus really justify making a new special category with all of those downsides?

                            Would it be unreasonable for an elite soldier, who is specially trained to use that armor, to know two more of its Evocations?
                            What if all the base bonuses were considered non-charm?

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                            • #89
                              At the risk of exploding the horse that several folks have spent the last five pages beating; why have Power Armor like you're describing at all?

                              I'm not asking the question to be snarky. I've seen your other posts and talks about your game, nothing specifically stuck out as choosing the balkiwick of a magitech setting aside from this specific thread.

                              The thing about Dragon Armor that you're referencing here seems to specifically emphasize AotID as a sort of tactical all purpose battle wear, which seems to me to run counter to the idea of magical artifice as it's presented in Exalted 3e.

                              I know, Arms would seem to contradict this given lightning ballista and use of the term Dragon Armor, but the identical name doesn't necessarily mean it fits the same niche in the setting.

                              I mean, all the strap-ons and various gizmos of Dragon Armor and CBA makes sense in a magical artiface as industrialization sort of way; but in the context of 3 edition's emphasis on mythic artifice (unique artifacts, removal of the term magitech) such systems don't seem to make sense.

                              Which is to say, Artifacts are built custom made to order according to a specifically unique set of circumstances. The Lightning Ballista is sort of the exception that proves the rule; there's not really much variation possible on "I build a ballista that shoots lighning".

                              To return to the Warstrider comparison; the new difference is that every individual Warstrider is wholly unique. One has this category of an armor type, but each Warstrider is built to the specifications of its purpose. Emerald Chevalier is built for long range scouting, the Endless Waltz Expy is built to soar and blow shit up. Kuvara wasn't even built with a purpose in mind, it was built out of necessity to cage the creature that allows its construction.


                              The powers you're laying out here as being what makes Dragon Armor don't seem to fill a niche beyond "mass produced omni-tactical war gear". Which is fine if that's what you want for your game... but to me, this seems to clash directly with the artifice paradigm of third edition.

                              - - -
                              To try to add something constructive here, I wanna say I liked this tidbit in the armors description:

                              "..the Armor of the Immaculate Dragons, or Dragon Armor, was designed to be passed down through generations of users.."

                              This hints at heirloom or family armor, perhaps artifice that's suited to a given family and emphasizes their legend or the beliefs of the family?

                              Like, if I were to create Dragon Armor in my game, I'd narrow the distinctions waaaay way down from what you're indicating here. Rather than a suite of omni tactical abilities, I'd give the armor hearthstone slots, its own essence battery, and a guaranteed unique bonus based on the element of its construction. This at least guarantees that someone could point to a given armor and go "Holy F***, let's get outta here, that bad ass lady's in Dragon Armor" without it feeling like gear that's created off an assembly line.

                              Hope this is helpful, if not pls disregard.
                              Last edited by Janissary87; 01-03-2020, 03:29 PM.


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                              • #90
                                I’m not really married to the idea of it being themed as magi-tech, it’s just that it has been for the previous two editions. As it’s described in third edition though it IS a product of First Age Artiface, which makes it very powerful even by the standards of artifacts, but usually that power comes at some kind of cost to operate the thing, and often in the form of requiring hearthstones and maintenance.

                                I’m on board with them all bring unique in the style of warstriders, although again there should be at least one or two sets somewhere that are a full cycle of five. There are quite a few “base” abilities that warstriders get though, in spite of being unique. The additional health track, the slew of benefits of Legendary Size, special gambits, particulars of power and repairs, specialty requirements, attacks are automatically unblockable without magic, reflexive devastating actions, bonus speed, tons of stuff. Those are all common to every warstrider in spite of their uniqueness. Dragon Armor has in the past started at 4 dots, and is a bit less rare to find I feel in the way it’s presented, so it definitely shouldn’t have stuff directly comparable. Just that like any warstrider turns the pilot into an army destroying And giant monster fighting machine, it should do...something.

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