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  • #31
    Exalted without charms are just barely superhuman. They don't suffer from infected wounds or die from mundane diseases, they live a long time and heal perfectly, but there's not much else. They don't have extra health levels, they're not stronger, they can't see better. Charms are the things that really set them apart, and at Essence 5 charms become world shakingly powerful.

    God King's Shrike let's you proclaim doom upon an entire nation and something equivalent to a meteor the size of a mountain will slam into it an annihilate it. Nine Aeons Thews let's you attempt literally any feat of strength, with double 7s, and with other charms in the tree that let you do things like reroll all failed dice. That's like, what? An average of 40+ successes, when 20 let's you tear open a crevasse in the earth or smash through 10 feet of solid rock with a single punch.

    There's also a new enemy in ex3 stated up who's a literal mile tall, which since numbers are hard to imagine, look up a picture of the Burj Khalifa and picture a humanoid monster so big that the top of the tower only comes up to its waist.

    I don't really see where Ex3 is losing the epic ness here, especially since with Supernal abilities you can do all that from day one of your exaltation.


    Edit: also the sidebar on page 274 explains how to use Heaven Thunder Hammer to launch the Juggernaut across a mountain.
    Last edited by DrLoveMonkey; 01-04-2020, 02:32 PM.

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    • #32
      I think there is objectively some tension of what role Essence 6+ should play in stories and design choices of the 3rd edition which I am not totally happy with reflect this tension.

      Firstly, we want Solar player characters to be shakers and movers from the very beginning, so there should be no things that fall in totally different tier than starting characters and which are there to interact with. Secondly, it seems to fit Exalted themes and mood to have the world feel huge and one of aspects of being huge is that the world is filled with stories, beings, mysteries and hierarchies thereof which you uncover gradually, learning that what you thought at the beginning is just scratching the surface.

      This is not only a tension between two visions of the setting, but also between "game-first" design stance and "world-first" design stance. Let's say you want to introduce elders with some high-essence Awareness charms that let eavesdrop on conversations in Hell unless "jammed" in a specialised way. This can very much fit the themes of ultimate spy, but can be terribly boring in an actual game, unless treated with care. Some games, however, just embrace the power levels in the game world, like oWoD and some decide to take "game-first" approach, like the third edition of Exalted. The same applies for efficient mind-control. Very much in theme of the setting, very problematic in play.

      Personally, I am ready to sacrifice design choices convenient for the game, for the better feel of the setting (not to bend the setting so that it fit the game), and let my elders have many plot-device level capabilities with additional strata of justification of why player characters can do anyhing. At the end of the day, my players are having genuine fun, but it certainly does take some effort. Third edition's general solution seems to be this: divide the setting into "cosmic" beings with which the player's are not supposed to interact mechanically, like Yozis, and the actual cast. Then you make sure that the power differences between the latter are flatted enough, so that every interaction is meaningful.

      Guitar Longcat I think I know how you feel about the changes. My, quite serious advice is this: If you identified a piece of changes made to the edition that you don't like and you know exactly what it is, just change it. This is a literal rule in the book. I know that there is certain pressure against it, but I really found it much more productive and healthy, to take all kinds of liberties towards the game. Among other houserules, we let the elders have their stats capped by Essence and you can also want it that way. I even explicitly returned to Essence potentially not being capped by ten or any other number. It's ok to change it that way. This is maybe obvious, but possibly worth reiterating: This is your game and you and your players are supposed to have fun. This is sole and only purpose why this game exists.

      DrLoveMonkey, I think that Ex3 objectively sacrificed something of what kind of power level can be achieved. Sometimes, if you know previous edition you don't see it, because the interpretation tends to bend towards continuity with previous edition, but quite a couple of times, I've seen something from third edition in the second and be actually surprised how epic the same thing was supposed to be. Yes, you can make prophecies about meteors striking kingdoms, but you cannot wipe out the whole nations with the power of your performance or directly manipulate Shinma. You cannot strike someone whose location you don;t know under the same Sun with an arrow that makes an explosion hundred's miles long. You have miles-high volcanic behemots, but they typically will not just wipe out a tyrant lizard in one hit, as they should.

      I understand leaving out some of this material, since the details of the mechanic do not seem to matter that much at this plot-device level, but when I think of high-essence charms I prefer them to be something very world-shaking and not just flavour on top of the actual powers and I don't like how the approach of plot-device high essence charms is being actively opposed to by developers.

      To end the topic with something more constructive: when I think of homebrewed high-essence charms I tend to take the following approach:
      - effects themselves should be increadibly powerful, not just flavour. Let it really be these arrows making many-miles radius explosions which wipe out fleets of airships from stranger places for which second age has no name.
      - preferably, they should typically let you do things in the story rather than simply interact with mechanics. For instance, I envisage high-essence Stealth that let you reflexively and retroactively come from shadows in a place you previously visited without the explanation how you actually got there, no matter the distance or another one that would let you make a whole organisation be obscured from record and history, so that your secret ninja-clan can simply become forgotten or a Sail charm which let you sail your ship in the longest journey to the Cave at the End of the World which lays beyond the Wyld;
      - they should come with some inherent limitations, so that they are resource to be used carefully. They can cost you xp or be once-per-story, or have some cumbersome side-effect or require some specific preparation: only applies to a place, you visited this year or to a person towards whom you have defining intimacy.
      Last edited by Lanic; 01-05-2020, 09:39 AM.

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      • #33
        Lanic, re; cosmic beings like Yozis, I think yeah, to some extent characters are not intended to encounter them (if they ever *really* were too much in prior editions?), but at another its more like, if you do encounter them, it's not going to be in a form where they are represented by a character sheet, as much as they'll be represented as lots of different challenges and lots of different characters with their own charsheets, and there is certainly not a pretense or notions that PCs are ever meant to match them, charsheet for charsheet in some sense and win at being a "stronger build" than a Primordial (any more than they would do for "The Sidereal host" or "Heaven" or "The Court of Prince Balor" taken as a whole or anything).

        In terms of changes in magic you mention, I think some of that is present, but in the form that it is moved from Charms to Sorcery rather than scope changes (and some of the things like "Shinmaic Manipulation" which came from writers not actually understanding what Jenna wrote the Shinma to be, are gone, though that's another rantangent). They become "projects" with significant requirements rather than being "at will" powers, and even to the extent they exist in the Charm system and as options for characters who eschew Sorcery, they are still iterative things that are done with many cumulative actions (destroying a nation through heart-breaking performances is not just a one-shot, at will thing, etc.). Those powers become a story to undertake, and not options even an elder can casually exercise without being countered or which they could use as a threat to maintain power without too much effort or trivially undo movements against them. (Edit: In a sense that seems to actually agree with one of your requirements for making good quality elder powers: "they should come with some inherent limitations, so that they are resource to be used carefully."?).
        Last edited by Ghosthead; 01-05-2020, 11:05 AM.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Ghosthead View Post
          [USER="13416"]Those powers become a story to undertake, and not options even an elder can casually exercise without being countered or which they could use as a threat to maintain power without too much effort or trivially undo movements against them.
          Which is part of the explicit developer design goal for ex3 that you should never feel like your playing your charms more than your character. Looking at Athletics for example, 2e had Unconquered Might, which was a diceless charm that simply let you destroy anything mundane with a feat of strength, or at higher essence also artifacts given enough time. It's okay, but with the somewhat rigid effect that it must be an act of demolition, and the guaranteed success makes it kind of feel like "I activate this charm out of my box of charms and it solves this problem for my character."

          In Ex3 Nine Aeons Thews lets you attempt any feat with double 7s, and combined with Thunder's Might which lets you you reroll all failed dice, and Power Suffusing Form which gives you (Strength) non-charm bonus dice you're really good. If you've also got the merit Mighty Thews and basic stunt that's an average of 40 successes. That is enough to do just about anything but you do actually still roll your Feats of Strength pool. It takes into account your merits, your Strength score, stunts, willpower, it's based on enhancing the character you designed in their abilities that they already have, rather than a specific and automatic effect. It also affects all Feats of Strength, not just demolition.



          Doing things that way also tends towards making things a lot less...weird. It also lead to a lot of perfect-or-die style effects, or just straight up uncounterable ones. Like for example if you're trying to plot against somebody with Lawgiver's Parable Defense they will always see you coming a week before your plan goes into action. You also might just say or write the wrong thing, triggering Omniscient Ears Approach, and then get hit with a perfect-or-die attack without any warning. Which can kind of work, so long as everyone plays ball and all has PDs with surprise negators and the like at all times regardless of their character concept, but I think that's a load of crap.

          You could actually still have things like that happen in Ex3, but they're no longer just logical extrapolations of the printed charms.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

            Which is part of the explicit developer design goal for ex3 that you should never feel like your playing your charms more than your character. Looking at Athletics for example, 2e had Unconquered Might, which was a diceless charm that simply let you destroy anything mundane with a feat of strength, or at higher essence also artifacts given enough time. It's okay, but with the somewhat rigid effect that it must be an act of demolition, and the guaranteed success makes it kind of feel like "I activate this charm out of my box of charms and it solves this problem for my character."

            In Ex3 Nine Aeons Thews lets you attempt any feat with double 7s, and combined with Thunder's Might which lets you you reroll all failed dice, and Power Suffusing Form which gives you (Strength) non-charm bonus dice you're really good. If you've also got the merit Mighty Thews and basic stunt that's an average of 40 successes. That is enough to do just about anything but you do actually still roll your Feats of Strength pool. It takes into account your merits, your Strength score, stunts, willpower, it's based on enhancing the character you designed in their abilities that they already have, rather than a specific and automatic effect. It also affects all Feats of Strength, not just demolition.



            Doing things that way also tends towards making things a lot less...weird. It also lead to a lot of perfect-or-die style effects, or just straight up uncounterable ones. Like for example if you're trying to plot against somebody with Lawgiver's Parable Defense they will always see you coming a week before your plan goes into action. You also might just say or write the wrong thing, triggering Omniscient Ears Approach, and then get hit with a perfect-or-die attack without any warning. Which can kind of work, so long as everyone plays ball and all has PDs with surprise negators and the like at all times regardless of their character concept, but I think that's a load of crap.

            You could actually still have things like that happen in Ex3, but they're no longer just logical extrapolations of the printed charms.
            Right.

            I was going to leave off this thread on the off-chance that Aquillion or at least someone else was going to put forth a good faith attempt at making it about Charm design, but since that seemingly isn't happening I may as well justify my extremely negative stance on 3e despite standing by what I said in the "positive responses only" thread. And I'm going to open with a strange and counterintuitive statement: I truly do think 3e does a better job of representing the versatility and raw power of Solar power from the perspective of a character just starting out. The problem I have is with the support for character progression

            Let's start from the premise that high-essence effects have been rolled over into lower essence charms, because I don't think that's an accurate statement. What I think's happened is that select aspects of those higher essence charms were put into the lower essence ones while diminishing them overall-which to be clear, I wouldn't be concerned with if it wasn't for the devs stating they weren't going to write higher essence charms at all and frankly, saying you can just homebrew them is a bit of a cop-out considering I've heard the exact same excuses for why Devil-Tigers were a bad mechanic. Emerald Infuction Technique? A Hood on Death (Lords of Creation, p. 74) cures a given disease for Essence*20 miles AND gives the spirit charms uniquely suited for curing said disease. God-King Shrike? Cast Out Beyond Regard let you exile an entire city all the way to Malfeas without waiting for months on end for the warning to take effect. Even in the case of Nine Aeons Thew, I acknowledge the massive successes it affords but unlike Sky-Breaker Throw it doesn't seem written to enable hurling a target into another realm of existence entirely.

            You have to understand, I'm not blind to the positives of 3e; Wyld Cauldron Technology and it's upgrades is infinitely better than it was in 2e, for example. I AM aware a lot of the charms I've mentioned would be impossible to obtain in a normal session because of how high essence they are. The reason I'm disgruntled is because I feel like 2e set a much, much more impressive benchmark and 3e took only the most shallowest aspects of those heights. There was a Bureaucracy charm called Visage Made Law that let you sear your image onto the very Shinma, the foundational spirits of existence, to obtain a -2 external penalty on all attempts at impersonating you and to prevent anything from drawing motes from you without your consent. I'm disappointed by 3e because of something so shallow as a loss in raw power, I'm disappointed because a lot of the most interesting metaphysical implications of 2e seem to have been ignored or culled from existence. 40+ successes is all well and good, but it isn't very helpful for the ST who has to decide whether or not it should allow the player to literally pull down the sky or haul an outpost of the Wyld into Creation when unlike Heaven Thunder Hammer it doesn't have a helpful sidebar for such examples.

            2e may not have had good mechanics, but I felt like it was trying to tell a story about a hero whose actions made the entire cosmos tremble. 3e feels like that cosmos is a lot less accessible. And yes, I'm aware about Ambition 3 Solar Workings but it's telling even they only allow subtle alterations to the cosmos.

            Lioness I find the distinction between being able to upgrade a baseline Abilities/Attributes and doing that by purchasing a Merit to be nonsensically arbitrary, and I find it pointless to speculate on things that aren't actually in the system as written. Why not simply rewrite the system of charm conflict so the roll-off is less absolutely determined by your mundane abilities/attributes.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Guitar Longcat View Post
              Right.
              I think we just have to disagree then. Everything I loved about 2e, basically, has been magnified twice over in 3e. The rich world, unique cultures, epic fantasy combat, unique diverse heroes. Then there's that little cap at the very top of crazy high essence that I barely ever saw used and only lead to endless frustration on the part of everyone involved. It barely had any support in the lore and mechanics about how it was supposed to function.

              If I want THAT kind of experience I'll play Nobilis or the Godsend variation of Worlds of Legacy where the whole point of the game is that you can snap your fingers and slag an entire continent right off chargen. It's not just the very edges of the system and setting where things start to break down, those games just expect you to solve the problem of the Realm by lifting up the whole Blessed Isle with your bare hands and hurling it into the Wyld right off the bat.
              Last edited by DrLoveMonkey; 01-05-2020, 11:49 PM.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Lanic View Post
                This is not only a tension between two visions of the setting, but also between "game-first" design stance and "world-first" design stance. Let's say you want to introduce elders with some high-essence Awareness charms that let eavesdrop on conversations in Hell unless "jammed" in a specialised way. This can very much fit the themes of ultimate spy, but can be terribly boring in an actual game, unless treated with care. Some games, however, just embrace the power levels in the game world, like oWoD and some decide to take "game-first" approach, like the third edition of Exalted. The same applies for efficient mind-control. Very much in theme of the setting, very problematic in play.

                Personally, I am ready to sacrifice design choices convenient for the game, for the better feel of the setting (not to bend the setting so that it fit the game), and let my elders have many plot-device level capabilities with additional strata of justification of why player characters can do anyhing. At the end of the day, my players are having genuine fun, but it certainly does take some effort. Third edition's general solution seems to be this: divide the setting into "cosmic" beings with which the player's are not supposed to interact mechanically, like Yozis, and the actual cast. Then you make sure that the power differences between the latter are flatted enough, so that every interaction is meaningful.
                I don't agree with this. The world of the first, second and third edition corebooks is one where the Dragon-Blooded overthrew the Solar Exated at the height of their power and have only recently begun to lose their grip on power as the Solars have returned. The setting where we needed to explain why Creation Slaying Oblivion Kick hadn't happened yet arose because of mechanics being given more weight than the lore.


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                • #38
                  E11 doesn't look like supreme understanding to me. As for all "end-game" powers as a Storyteller I always ask myself what is important in the story, and my players' perspectives.

                  What would supreme power looks like ? Well the Solar are the embodiment of untamed potential, unconquerable majesty, heroism beyond duty and beyond hope. As such what would be ultimate enlightenment ? My answer : the understanding of oneself, one's power, and one's place in the universe. Such are the Solar that they can not only change or break Fate, but make and unmake the Rules and the Laws.

                  An so behold this pinacle (I hope to inspire you), only achievable though deep meditation after a life lasting at least a millennium and shared with Exalted of all :

                  Beyond Breaking Boundaries

                  Cost:--; Min: Integrity 5, Essence 10; Prerequisites: 19 Integrity Charms
                  Type: Permanent, Stackable; Tags: Story

                  Having attained ultimate enlightenment the Solar not only truly knows herself, but understand and internalize her Solar Caste and how it fits around and shape her Exaltation. Then with a perfect thought she breaks through those limits to redefine herself as Something More.

                  Through this Charm the Solar gains the advantages of another Solar Caste. She defines 5 new caste abilities in the new chosen Caste (and move favored abilities if necessary only*), one of which becomes her second supernal ability, and gains the power of this Caste Anima. She also gains a second Caste mark, and can choose to meld the two when she wants.

                  This charm is stackable and can be re-bought after a century has passed. Such powerful changes if not stabilized through time and practice are one of the few theoretical ways an Exaltation could break.




                  *if 4 or 5 are taken she moves 1 or 2. If only 3 are taken she takes the other 5. She can switch a favored and caste one for the purpose of making it Supernal. Well you see the gist of it I hope...
                  Edit : just realized that at Essence 10 it doesn't really matter.... Well never mind then ^^
                  Last edited by Crop Weaver; 01-06-2020, 07:39 AM.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
                    If I want THAT kind of experience I'll play Nobilis or the Godsend variation of Worlds of Legacy where the whole point of the game is that you can snap your fingers and slag an entire continent right off chargen. It's not just the very edges of the system and setting where things start to break down, those games just expect you to solve the problem of the Realm by lifting up the whole Blessed Isle with your bare hands and hurling it into the Wyld right off the bat.
                    I wouldn't personally be happy with that kind of experience. The point why I would like to have Nobilis-level power in Exalted is twofold: first, to have enough plot devices, and NPCs with cosmic-scale plans to interact with. The second is to have a reachable horizon for players to eventually approach the tier, where these beings become more and more approachable. To start with cosmic-level powers at the very beginning is not nearly as satisfying, since fresh characters always will lack certain gravity, the web of personal connections, vendettas to engage in, and allies to support.

                    Morevoer, cosmic-level doesn't necessarily mean here "Yozis". One example of what I mean are elder sidereals. It's just so immensely satisfying where after a long journey you meet the mysterious enemies behind the scenes whose power seemed overwhelming at the first encounter, but who you can finally defeat after a long training of even more esoteric techniques by another mysterious old sifu (say, Golden Faction). This is a staple of some genres upon which Exalted builds, but you cannot really represent it if all characters are so powerful as to have no mechanics attached or roughly at the very same tier as starting pcs. This is simply not a kind of story you can do in Nobilis. You need some sort of continuity between cosmic and merely "heroic" tiers. Can it be done at all? Well, Storypath systems seem a genuine attempt to do exactly this.

                    I mean, clearly not everyone find this attractive. Someone may find these tropes silly or too weird, and obviousy that's ok. The main reason why I'm writing it is obviously not to convince you that you are playing Exalted wrong, but mostly to constantly remind that some people find some aspects of Exalted sacrificed in the passage to the third edition still attractive; moreover I find it precisely the selling point of Exalted. Apparently, there are more such people on other fora, as this site is mostly populated with people enthusiastic about changes.

                    Lioness Well, I honestly don't think that the presence of some more story-level charms is such a deal-breaker. Canonical answer would be of course: Dragon Blooded won because they were powerful too, totally overwhelming in numbers, had backing of Sidereals and access to infrastructure.

                    See, even in third edition, Solars had access to mass-destruction weapons which were capable of winning world wars (the Sword of Creation), could immediately tell when someone is lying, fast reliable communication, and had access to third-circle demons and Unconquered Sun on your side, it's already hard to imagine how can you win a war against someone like that. Of course, if high-essence Solars were much more powerful, then this is an important factor to take into account, but nothing that would't already be problematic. Moreover, if Exalted where considerably weaker, this poses another problem: how do you exactly manage to win with Primordials? How does it even look like? If some sort of outnumbering had been a factor there, it could also be a factor in Usurpation
                    .

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                    • #40
                      I don't really care about the logistics of the Usurpation or the Primordial War. I care about the elder exalts (including Deathlords) who are still around in the Age of Sorrows which hasn't had totally overwhelming numbers of Dragon-Blooded since the Great Contagion.


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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Lanic View Post
                        Morevoer, cosmic-level doesn't necessarily mean here "Yozis". One example of what I mean are elder sidereals. It's just so immensely satisfying where after a long journey you meet the mysterious enemies behind the scenes whose power seemed overwhelming at the first encounter, but who you can finally defeat after a long training of even more esoteric techniques by another mysterious old sifu (say, Golden Faction). This is a staple of some genres upon which Exalted builds, but you cannot really represent it if all characters are so powerful as to have no mechanics attached or roughly at the very same tier as starting pcs. This is simply not a kind of story you can do in Nobilis. You need some sort of continuity between cosmic and merely "heroic" tiers. Can it be done at all? Well, Storypath systems seem a genuine attempt to do exactly this.
                        I don’t really understand why that kind of progression is hard to do in third edition. An Essence 8 Bronze Faction Sidereal who’s a mater of multiple SMAs, has several entire circle of lower essence Sidereals working for him, the backing of the gods of Heaven, Sidereal Astrology, and the Scarlett Dynasty is definitely an overwhelming threat to a young Solar who’s Essence 1 and has nothing but her daiklave and a horse. Even if she can proclaim doom on a nation and a week later it dies, the forces and abilities commanded by her enemies vastly outstrip her.

                        Supernal is super powerful, although I do also think it can kill some of the feeling of progression if you take your big Essence 5 signature thing right off the hop. Even if you do though there’s lots to progress towards as you get to Essence 5+. Even if you’re Occult Supernal there’s Adamant Circle sorcery, Essence 5 evocations, and simply the combination of different Essence 5 abilities combined with the bonuses granted by all the (Essence) calculations becoming (5+). That’s just personal character power stuff though. You can progress from having your daiklave and commanding a half dozen mercenaries to helming the Sword of Creation and commanding legions of tiger warriors and dragonblooded commanders from your N/A warstrider. Those things stack too, since you’re an adamant circle sorcerer in your N/A warstrider combining Essence 5 Melee charms with Essence 5 resistance charms, ect.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Guitar Longcat View Post
                          You kind of were making a good point but that example of Visage Made Law is kinda hilarious.

                          'I write my name into the foundational world, to where even the foundational spirits of Existence know my name and who I am, making it...slightly more difficult for people to pretend to be me.'
                          "So this is Integrity, right?"
                          'Goodness no. Bureaucracy of course."

                          also as someone whose really done a lot of 2E Medicine, A Hood On Death is a really bad charm.

                          It's not bad because it doesn't do anything, but rather because it has absolutely no relation to earlier Medicine charms. Those charms about being a good, amazing, plague curing doctor who can regrow lost limbs, heal the blind, etc? Forget all that, let's just have you wave your hand and summon someone else to cure the disease for you. It turns you into a glorified middle-man. If you were a Solar Doctor who wanted to reach the pinnacle of being a doctor and cure a plague, you eventually learn to do this by waving your hand and summoning something to do it for you, instead of mixing up some kind of powerful drug found by adventuring and mixed into a cure or any of that.

                          It's kinda boring.

                          And I think that speaks to some of the problems. Some of the High Essence Charms are boring amounts of 'use this tool to do a cool thing', some are boring amounts of 'this doesn't even really connect in a way I understand to prior charms', and then you have the other ones. Some of the higher Essence charms are interesting, evocative, and cool. Some of them are things you design a entire character concept around 'I want to use this charm'. But that's not good, I don't think, for getting people into the game of having engaging games as a whole. If the only interesting charms are at Essence 5+, then what's the point of lower Essence charms? What's the point of even playing the game until you get to those charms? If the entire game's series of fun, interesting charms are only available at Essence 5+, then the rest of the game suffers.

                          3E sort of messes with this with the Supernal stuff, but even in the lower Essence levels, there's some good stuff you can do that you can build a character concept with. In Medicine a lot of the 2E early set charms are the same in 3E, but they've also added charms to let you give your friends fake health levels, or to literally take your friend's wound penalties into you; you can keep your friends fighting by suffering penalties for them, or turning your own health into Essence to heal others. Those things are towards the higher end of Essence stuff (Essence 3), but I'd put it more likely you could get to those charms even if Medicine isn't your Supernal Ability then you would be to get A Hood On Death, and you'd probably enjoy them more.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Guitar Longcat View Post
                            I find the distinction between being able to upgrade a baseline Abilities/Attributes and doing that by purchasing a Merit to be nonsensically arbitrary
                            Achieving the essence rating required to raise requires Abilities/Attributes past their cap requires the player character to be far older than most chronicles really allow for.

                            Originally posted by Guitar Longcat
                            and I find it pointless to speculate on things that aren't actually in the system as written.
                            Okay.

                            Originally posted by Guitar Longcat
                            Why not simply rewrite the system of charm conflict so the roll-off is less absolutely determined by your mundane abilities/attributes.
                            No. I feel at this point, that the burden is on you to explain why the system needs to be re-written to preserve attributes and abilities that go up to 10.


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                            • #44
                              While I regret that starting at 5 in one or 2 abilities is rather standard for an Exalted character (from my experiences) because it makes progression in this very field difficult for characters (the only way to go up is by Charms but I'd like something that can be a bit different), I really don't see the value is unlocking 5+ abilities when you reach essence 6+, it wouldn't affect most campaigns, and wouldn't solve the "I'd like my character to progress" because it happens at very late game.


                              My homebrew (Leave comments if you want to help improve) : A quick recap of all the pools and stats for Quick Exalted 3E characters

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                              • #45
                                DrLoveMonkey I think it is obvious that the intended cap of the power level granted by charms was lowered. Developers explicitly stated their lack of interest in reintroducing certain kinds of charms. You are claiming that there are still differences in power level. This is true, but trivially true. There are also differences in power level in FATE or Warhammer or The One Ring. What I am unhappy about is that you cannot recreate certain style and magnitude of these differences. I think you agree that we won't see an Awareness charm that lets you hear your name being spoken in Zen-Mu?

                                You wrote that Essence 8 Sidereal would be overwhelming for starting Solars. I am not really convinced that this assumption is true. We have some example of published celestial exalts. Do you think that Ma-Ha-Suchi would be a serious threat to Solar circle in a direct confrontation? I suspect he wouldn't. Of course, we can take his bodyguards and armies into account, but this is simply avoiding the point: Ma-Ha-Suchi is not a real challenge as a single powerful combatant against a circle of Solars. And there should be such challenges, because this is a staple of the genre (or one of the genres that influenced Exalted). You yourself repeatedly advised people not to make fights against powerful single enemies.

                                Of course, here we speak only about direct confrontation, but do you think that published elder Lunars are a serious challenge to a circle of starting Solars on any other arena? Or do you think that published Sidereals will be significantly different?

                                (By the way: I hope that all the rhetorical questions above and the reference to your previous forum activity don't seem overly confrontational. Please, imagine this said in sincerely worried rather than sarcastic voice I'm just really attached to the idea of elder powers. It seems that there is certain population of people who think alike about Exalted and I think there are underrepresented in this forum.)

                                Flare I agree that published high-essence charms were mostly bad. I do not agree that this is something inherent to the concept, but to the actual execution. I wrote above how I imagine this should be handled. As a matter of fact, I do agree that how sorcery was handled is a good model, how such great power could be modeled. But as of now, sorcery is an outlier. We simply do not see that sort of power in other abilities.

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