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E10 Solar Charm (P.E.A.C.H.)

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Chausse View Post
    While I regret that starting at 5 in one or 2 abilities is rather standard for an Exalted character (from my experiences) because it makes progression in this very field difficult for characters (the only way to go up is by Charms but I'd like something that can be a bit different), I really don't see the value is unlocking 5+ abilities when you reach essence 6+, it wouldn't affect most campaigns, and wouldn't solve the "I'd like my character to progress" because it happens at very late game.

    Incidentally, I agree with you. I think it would be best if you could get some permanent bonus to your dice pools and to permanently raise your dice pool caps at Essence 3,5 and then at every level past 5. Raising your caps from Essence 6 onwards was World of Darkness heritage. In most games, raising your power stat past the rating of 5, meant that you made or were able to make some kind of fundamental change, like a complete change of template. This is more-or-less preserved in Chronicles of Darkness and Aeon, with some (serious caveats).

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Lanic View Post
      we won't see an Awareness charm that lets you hear your name being spoken in Zen-Mu?
      Probably not for a while, after Miracles we’re kind of done with Solar charms for a bit when there’s half a dozen splats that don’t even have their books out. On the other hand that effect isn’t unreasonable, we have a charm right now that’s Essence 4 and let’s you hear your name being spoken anywhere on your current plane of existence. At essence 5 or maybe 6 as a charm personally tailored to your character you could hear even across the barriers of worlds. What we won’t see is a charm that does that even when you have no connection to whoever is speaking like the 2e charm did. Which didn’t make a whole lot of sense anyway, if you’re a Solar lord and thousands of people speak your name every day, do you know which one is a conspirator plotting against you before you reflexively spend motes to listen in? If not you’re just taking a shot in the dark, and if so it might as well let you just listen in on anyone plotting against you.

      Originally posted by Lanic View Post
      You wrote that Essence 8 Sidereal would be overwhelming for starting Solars. I am not really convinced that this assumption is true. We have some example of published celestial exalts. Do you think that Ma-Ha-Suchi would be a serious threat to Solar circle in a direct confrontation? I suspect he wouldn't. Of course, we can take his bodyguards and armies into account, but this is simply avoiding the point: Ma-Ha-Suchi is not a real challenge as a single powerful combatant against a circle of Solars. And there should be such challenges, because this is a staple of the genre (or one of the genres that influenced Exalted). You yourself repeatedly advised people not to make fights against powerful single enemies.
      Exactly. Ma-Ha-Suchi is the lord of a Lunar dominion, he has an entire school of Celestial exalted that revere him, his capital building is an enormous fortress built in the First Age and surrounded by a massive geographical area called the Tangle which is a jungle filled with death and pain. If you look at Ma-Ha—Suchi’s stats and thing “psh whatever, he’s causing problems in this area? Lets just go beat him to the ground and make him stop.” and you follow that plan through regardless of what resistance you face then you probably won’t make it to his throne room. Or if you do there’s a good chance you’ll do it wounded, drained of motes and willpower, and then joining battle against an elder Lunar, his Lunar warlord student, his battlegroup of beastmen and maybe a powerful spirit or two.

      I’m not trying to say it’s unbeatable for a young circle, its just that elder characters are so SO much more than their stats and charms. Also this way the Storyteller has more tool to tweak things to their specific campaign. Who’s to say that first age fortress didn’t house a moon silver warstrider?

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      • #48
        To be fair, the "single powerful boss" encounter is a problem in pretty much every system out there.

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        • #49
          Also for challenges that exist as single enemies that can take on entire circles look to behemoths like Mahicara or my own creation of the Jotun of the Aftershock Titan. Exalted are meant to punch up and kill titans, not really so much to be the equivalent of them.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Lanic View Post
            You wrote that Essence 8 Sidereal would be overwhelming for starting Solars. I am not really convinced that this assumption is true. We have some example of published celestial exalts. Do you think that Ma-Ha-Suchi would be a serious threat to Solar circle in a direct confrontation? I suspect he wouldn't. Of course, we can take his bodyguards and armies into account, but this is simply avoiding the point: Ma-Ha-Suchi is not a real challenge as a single powerful combatant against a circle of Solars. And there should be such challenges, because this is a staple of the genre (or one of the genres that influenced Exalted). You yourself repeatedly advised people not to make fights against powerful single enemies.

            Of course, here we speak only about direct confrontation, but do you think that published elder Lunars are a serious challenge to a circle of starting Solars on any other arena? Or do you think that published Sidereals will be significantly different?
            I just want to nuance this a bit - the reason elders can be beaten in a direct confrontation is not because they are actually weak, but because 3e builds its QCs to be non-optimized on purpose. You can very much build a Ma-Ha Suchi that will be able to curbstomp fresh Solars in a direct confrontation without increasing Ma-Ha's strength past 5 or giving him Charms more powerful than what E5 can achieve.
            Last edited by Epitome; 01-06-2020, 01:50 PM.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Epitome View Post

              I just want to nuance this a bit - the reason elders can be beaten in a direct confrontation is not because they are actually weak, but because 3e builds its QCs to be non-optimized on purpose. You can very much build a Ma-Ha Suchi that will be able to curbstomp fresh Solars in a direct confrontation without increasing Ma-Ha's strength past 5 or giving him Charms more powerful than what E5 can achieve.
              Ma-Ha-Suchi isn’t the worst in that department. He’s got a max join battle pool with Fast Reflexes, max command pool, attack pool, willpower and parry. If he wins strategic combat or JB he can activate his elder charm to reflexively fire off a big AoE demoralize for free, and he’s got that fucking epic Lunar charm that converts all dice added from size, might and commands to successes, and he can increase their might to 2.

              You could absolutely build a better Lunar than he is, but he’s not supposed to be the greatest Lunar warrior ever or anything so I think his QC does a halfway decent job.

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              • #52
                One of the best features of Exalted, that you don't start off as a wet paper bag, can be a problem because of the incentive system in chargen pushing you to be hyper-competent in one or a small number of related things. This is the starting with 5s leading to no sense of personal progression, the superabundance of Superal charms at chargen at the expense of broad competence, and various other manifestations such as torturous backstories to justify extremely eclectic but mechanically useful merit combinations.

                I think this feeds into a lack of focus on setting or narrative progression. One of the great forum scuffles in 2E was over factory cathedrals. On the one hand, they were nearly incomprehensible relics of the very heights of millennia of peace and collaborations between the Exalted who had time, resources, and support to develop their arts. On the other, with not very much work you can design them at chargen (if you didn't outright just spend a few bonus points to start with one).

                Now, to address the cosmic stuff directly: When there are people able to deal with your problems with the Realm by personally throwing the Blessed Isle into the Wyld, you must continue to invent excuses for why the setting remains comprehensible or consistent over any length of time. And it means that when the PCs "grow up" the setting is going to:
                A: Collapse like a house of card
                B: Be set aside so you can have god-fights with other god-tier opponents somewhere where you wont wreak the setting. (This was D&Ds approach to the Planes)

                Edit: There is also the fact that it is far easier to pull the cosmic into the mud than to do the opposite. aka Familiarity breeds contempt. Many players/characters tend to have an extremely cynical, dismissive, or hostile opinion of Heaven. I don't know that I have ever seen a PC that was actually devout where their faith wasn't portrayed as making them naive or a dupe. This is despite the fact that the number of entities in all of existence who could provide the support behind that perspective are vanishingly small, extremely hard to reach, and generally unconcerned with most mortal affairs anyway.
                Last edited by Exthalion; 01-06-2020, 04:36 PM.

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                • #53
                  Reminder that your mote pools and a good portion of your Charm bonuses keep going up past Essence 5.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Crop Weaver View Post
                    Beyond Breaking Boundaries

                    Cost:--; Min: Integrity 5, Essence 10; Prerequisites: 19 Integrity Charms
                    Type: Permanent, Stackable; Tags: Story

                    Having attained ultimate enlightenment the Solar not only truly knows herself, but understand and internalize her Solar Caste and how it fits around and shape her Exaltation. Then with a perfect thought she breaks through those limits to redefine herself as Something More.

                    Through this Charm the Solar gains the advantages of another Solar Caste. She defines 5 new caste abilities in the new chosen Caste (and move favored abilities if necessary only*), one of which becomes her second supernal ability, and gains the power of this Caste Anima. She also gains a second Caste mark, and can choose to meld the two when she wants.

                    This charm is stackable and can be re-bought after a century has passed. Such powerful changes if not stabilized through time and practice are one of the few theoretical ways an Exaltation could break.
                    Sure, this charm is good.

                    But here's the thing: Does it let you raise your Essence to 11? Does it?

                    No. No it does not. Therefore any Solar with my version will always be one better.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Aquillion View Post
                      Sure, this charm is good.

                      But here's the thing: Does it let you raise your Essence to 11? Does it?

                      No. No it does not. Therefore any Solar with my version will always be one better.
                      I have to hand it to you, I think that's the most through and total intellectual checkmate I've seen since I came here. Good show, lad, jolly good show.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Aquillion View Post
                        Sure, this charm is good.

                        But here's the thing: Does it let you raise your Essence to 11? Does it?

                        No. No it does not. Therefore any Solar with my version will always be one better.
                        Well, I stand corrected then ^^

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                        • #57
                          I like how it gives a second supernal that does absolutely nothing because you're already past essence 5.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Elfive View Post
                            I like how it gives a second supernal that does absolutely nothing because you're already past essence 5.

                            Yeah, I kinda even got myself by surprise with this one xD



                            But if you are not an Eclipse the way it can make accessible non-Solar charm for you is nice (I didn't think about that either ><)

                            Anyway you can count on me to stay as much as possible under Essence 3 because I find it more interesting at this time ^^

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                            • #59
                              I think since high essence charms are now more about personalising than power, how increasing essence would actually work is the charms are more and more about you as a character and less and less about your exaltation's themes.

                              So by essence 10 you get stuff that barely resembles a solar charm cos it's all about your legend.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Elfive View Post
                                I think since high essence charms are now more about personalising than power, how increasing essence would actually work is the charms are more and more about you as a character and less and less about your exaltation's themes.
                                Based on the sample Elder Lunar charms, that definitely seems to be the case.

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