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  • #16
    Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
    I have to say I didn’t realize quite how badly I wanted that kind of thing until my group swapped back to playing DnD. Where the DMG was like “this is what a standard adventuring day should look like. Do you find that your campaigns tend to run a different way? Here are some rules modifications for slower or faster paced games, or games with a more gritty feel valued high fantasy.” Which really helped me understand what I was running wrong about the game and got the feeling that it was really running amazingly well once I read what the game wanted to do. In some more recent exalted one-shots basically I’ve applied some of that to Exalted to some effect, but especially for Solars is really like more.



    Likewise with the Monster Manual, with a ton of diverse creatures powerful and interesting enough to be antagonists I never once had to re-use a foe for lack of choice, only when the story warranted it.
    The same to me exactly, just started 2 DD campaigns in the town I just moved in and, while I clearly prefer Exalted, DD clearly allows me to breathe more and understand "What's good and what's wrong" when I'm STing. I still do mistakes but at least I know what I can do to improve the quality of my game.


    My homebrew (Leave comments if you want to help improve) : A quick recap of all the pools and stats for Quick Exalted 3E characters

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    • #17
      Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
      I have to say I didn’t realize quite how badly I wanted that kind of thing until my group swapped back to playing DnD.
      I had a similar experience when I went from Mutants and Masterminds back to D&D. You don't realize how much you've missing a Monster Manual until you suddenly have one again. And at least for M&M I had good guideline for attrition and encounter design (though the latter was admittedly aided by some fan resources). I've repeatedly told my Exalted group that my current strategy is "<prolonged farting noise>"

      ...or, well, technically I guess my strategy at this point is "give the enemy big numbers that the players can't match without Charms/Excellencies, stunt like mad, and reduce Charms to "1-2 wp: do this thing not normally in the rules." And pray.
      Last edited by Grod_the_giant; 01-17-2020, 12:31 PM.

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      • #18
        No, rules light is not what I would call e3 from any perspective. Perhaps if I had players who could lift the (considerable) weight of every rule pertaining to their characters, so I didn't have to. As other posters have noted, it instead felt to me as if I had to design everything for myself.

        I don't know.

        HopefulIy Exalted: Essence will be playable to my group, for I have much love for Exalted but have run out of affection for 3e entirely.


        Avatar by Raven & Blue Jay.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Aleks View Post
          No, rules light is not what I would call e3 from any perspective. Perhaps if I had players who could lift the (considerable) weight of every rule pertaining to their characters, so I didn't have to. As other posters have noted, it instead felt to me as if I had to design everything for myself.
          This is hands down the biggest pain point I've experienced with the game myself. 90% of problems I encounter is "Player x doesn't understand the game so I have to play their character for them" or "System x is too complicated for the group so I have to redesign it for them".

          I love Exalted, and I'll friggin remake the whole game if that's what I need to do for my friends to join in on the fun. But let's just say Exalted : Essence will be more than welcome when it comes out.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Grod_the_giant View Post
            ...or, well, technically I guess my strategy at this point is &quot;give the enemy big numbers that the players can't match without Charms/Excellencies, stunt like mad, and reduce Charms to &quot;1-2 wp: do this thing not normally in the rules.&quot; And pray.
            Mine current strategy is to attempt mote/willpower attrition through a series of fast paced scenes, combat or otherwise, so that my players don’t use overwhelming power against everything. I’m also trying to just keep reminding myself “it’s Exalted, no it absolutely is not unreasonable to have an army of ten thousand clockwork soldiers. Or for an enemy Lunar to have summoned three Second Circle Demons concurrently. Or for there to be an entire battlegroup of Fair Folk Cataphracts.”

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Grod_the_giant View Post
              ...or is running 3e kinda like running a rules-light system?

              As a player, you've got mechanics underlying everything you do. Delightfully arcane, over-complicated and epic sets of Charms and spells and who knows what. As a GM, you've got... nothing. There are a couple example NPCs, but the entire chapter can more-or-less be summed up as "make up some numbers" and "make up some superpowers."
              Like others who've replied to this thread I wouldn't describe 3e as rules-light. However, a lot of second edition discourse and rhetoric framed the relationship between storyteller and player as downright adversarial, with perfect defences held up as a "no, fuck you" response to a DM attempting a total-party kill.
              I assume at least some people thought they were supposed to be playing 2e that way, a meme doesn't get that prevalent without someone taking it 100% seriously.


              success is the ability to go from one failure to the next without any loss of enthusiasm

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              • #22
                Originally posted by The Hug Ninja View Post
                Like others who've replied to this thread I wouldn't describe 3e as rules-light. However, a lot of second edition discourse and rhetoric framed the relationship between storyteller and player as downright adversarial, with perfect defences held up as a "no, fuck you" response to a DM attempting a total-party kill.
                I assume at least some people thought they were supposed to be playing 2e that way, a meme doesn't get that prevalent without someone taking it 100% seriously.
                Can confirm, I have heard horror stories of 2e Solar Circles being taken down by forest wolves, and of STs for whom a session was considered a failure if they hadn't taken down at least 1 PC.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Epitome View Post

                  Can confirm, I have heard horror stories of 2e Solar Circles being taken down by forest wolves, and of STs for whom a session was considered a failure if they hadn't taken down at least 1 PC.
                  Now that's a mindset I feel is holding the Tabletop hobby back and can quite kindly go and die in a fire.

                  Say what you will about Critical Role setting high expectations among new D&D players, at least Matt isn't trying to slaughter the PCs every chance he gets and everyone is having fun.


                  Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Epitome View Post

                    Can confirm, I have heard horror stories of 2e Solar Circles being taken down by forest wolves, and of STs for whom a session was considered a failure if they hadn't taken down at least 1 PC.
                    Well I think the worst offender here would be to not tell your players beforehand, and not allow them to switch to DD or something more in theme.


                    My homebrew (Leave comments if you want to help improve) : A quick recap of all the pools and stats for Quick Exalted 3E characters

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Epitome View Post

                      This is hands down the biggest pain point I've experienced with the game myself. 90% of problems I encounter is "Player x doesn't understand the game so I have to play their character for them" or "System x is too complicated for the group so I have to redesign it for them".

                      I love Exalted, and I'll friggin remake the whole game if that's what I need to do for my friends to join in on the fun. But let's just say Exalted : Essence will be more than welcome when it comes out.
                      Sorry for double post. Yes, this was a problem for me, I had to know every subsystem, because well even if the player knows its subsystem it's not like you can just spend 10 mns at the table having someone explains a part of the system everytime they want to do something, so you just have to learn it.


                      My homebrew (Leave comments if you want to help improve) : A quick recap of all the pools and stats for Quick Exalted 3E characters

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Epitome View Post

                        Can confirm, I have heard horror stories of 2e Solar Circles being taken down by forest wolves.
                        If you’re saying what I think you’re saying that brings another difficulty for STing Exalted. In DnD everyone is a “warrior-X” the bard, the sorcerer, the thief, they’re all fighters as well, and the game is set for that. Exalted, I find, often assumes that people like the bureaucrat will have 1-2 melee and 1-2 dex or something, and is built around that.

                        Unfortunately some groups will do that, but most I’ve seen just assume 5 and a specialty is the minimum combat ability and dex less than 3 is unheard of. Then whatever else for your character concept you want fits in around that. So you have some groups that would really rather not fight Octavian and a battlegroup of Bloodapes, and some that would take that down in a single turn.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

                          If you’re saying what I think you’re saying that brings another difficulty for STing Exalted. In DnD everyone is a “warrior-X” the bard, the sorcerer, the thief, they’re all fighters as well, and the game is set for that. Exalted, I find, often assumes that people like the bureaucrat will have 1-2 melee and 1-2 dex or something, and is built around that.

                          Unfortunately some groups will do that, but most I’ve seen just assume 5 and a specialty is the minimum combat ability and dex less than 3 is unheard of. Then whatever else for your character concept you want fits in around that. So you have some groups that would really rather not fight Octavian and a battlegroup of Bloodapes, and some that would take that down in a single turn.
                          Yeah I'm really disappointed in the prominence in Dexterity, as usual in so many games. I really think DD4 did a step forward when they allowed people to use whatever the characteristic made sense for them for different applications. Furthermore, in Exalted (or WoD in general) I feel Dexterity is so vital, because it is an attribute with such wide applications, that everyone has tons of it, but then except for the overspecialised Athletics guy everyone can do the same physical prowesses, so they are not so exceptional anymore (I had everyone in my group casually suceeding at recurring difficulty 4 dexterity athletics checks because, well ... everyone has 4 in it)


                          My homebrew (Leave comments if you want to help improve) : A quick recap of all the pools and stats for Quick Exalted 3E characters

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

                            If you’re saying what I think you’re saying that brings another difficulty for STing Exalted. In DnD everyone is a “warrior-X” the bard, the sorcerer, the thief, they’re all fighters as well, and the game is set for that. Exalted, I find, often assumes that people like the bureaucrat will have 1-2 melee and 1-2 dex or something, and is built around that.
                            In my unfortunate example, it wasn't a group combat ability mismatch, it was really just the ST playing as deviously as he could, making the wolves act in a way that would normally require human level intelligence and advanced war training.

                            The players actually weren't too mad about their TPK when it happened, thinking they had been outdone by a clever pack of Lunars or similar. It's only when they asked the ST what sort of Exalt or great creature had brought them down, and that the ST just stared back uncomprehendingly - they were really just wolves - that the players got really mad.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Epitome View Post

                              This is hands down the biggest pain point I've experienced with the game myself. 90% of problems I encounter is "Player x doesn't understand the game so I have to play their character for them" or "System x is too complicated for the group so I have to redesign it for them".

                              I love Exalted, and I'll friggin remake the whole game if that's what I need to do for my friends to join in on the fun. But let's just say Exalted : Essence will be more than welcome when it comes out.

                              Exactly, In my current group, one player who used to play serious tournament chess, is a decent bridge player and generally enjoys dealing with mechanical aspects of games, actually had to made characters for two of the other. Then, we had to carefully explain to these two players, step-by-step, and between sessions what these characters can do. Honestly, I wouldn't say that the process has already finished.

                              And, honestly, I think that this is mostly fault not so much of the mechanic as of the editing of the corebook. What do I mean by this? The game is heavy, actually I'd say it's superheavy. It's ok to me, I like games with nontrivial depth. However, if you plan to produce a playable heavy game, you should put much more care into the organisation of the material:

                              - charm cascades should definitely be in the book;
                              - you should have a single chart where charms are aligned alphabetically in each line you should have the shortest possible description of what the charm actually does. One line short;
                              - very often, it seems that designers planned some central charms in trees and others which are actually partial effects (for instance, Hypnotic Tongue Technique). Maybe change the naming conventions so that things that form a natural and intended progression are explicitly levels of one power
                              - fluff of the charm should be visibly delineated from the mechanical description;
                              - introduce more uniform notation and succinct notation for dice tricks: rerolls,cascades, treat-as-if. You shouldn't describe them each time with a new formulation in the natural language;
                              - more information should be organised in charts and tables rather than hidden in a block of text.

                              Exalted should generally look at all iterations of DnD from third edition up (with particular emphasis on the fourth edition) and just copypaste these solutions. Or even look at White Wolf products from the nineties. They used to be organised in a much more reasonable way.
                              Last edited by Lanic; 01-17-2020, 07:37 PM.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Chausse View Post
                                Yeah I'm really disappointed in the prominence in Dexterity, as usual in so many games. I really think DD4 did a step forward when they allowed people to use whatever the characteristic made sense for them for different applications. Furthermore, in Exalted (or WoD in general) I feel Dexterity is so vital, because it is an attribute with such wide applications, that everyone has tons of it, but then except for the overspecialised Athletics guy everyone can do the same physical prowesses, so they are not so exceptional anymore (I had everyone in my group casually suceeding at recurring difficulty 4 dexterity athletics checks because, well ... everyone has 4 in it)
                                Yeah that's part of it, everyone has big dex, and usually eagle eye awareness and, less commonly, big integrity, even if it doesn't really seem to make sense, or might seem like they twisted their character concept into having it make sense? Like 3 is acceptable Awareness if you're running out of bonus points, but you really should have 5.

                                If you look at the example solar circle from Tomb of Dreams Iay and Mirror Flag are both just...not like that at all. Iay's main attack has a base accuracy of 6, boostable with a full Solar excellency to 10, or 4 and 8 for decisive attacks. Nobody is wearing heavy armor, most have 2-3 Dex. They all have Integrity favoured at least, although again Iay has a pretty bad resolve in spite of that.

                                Faka Kun is the only one really built like a PC, with max Dodge, Thrown, Awareness and Stealth, Dexterity, Wits, and 3 Integrity. Just replace Stealth with Socialize or Occult or whatever you want for your chosen concept. The only thing she's missing is some wide applicability specialties and some kind of armor.



                                If my players built like the sample circle, I'd have to change the way I run the game. Instead of the whole circle fighting a lot of threats in combat it would be more like the Dawn, Night and Zenith protecting the Twilight and Eclipse. Everyone would be spending a lot more motes too since they couldn't rely on their base stats to just carry them through a lot of stuff. That's not even considering people who might not have the best tactical minds out there.

                                Exalted might have a more flat progression than DnD, but I feel for the developers who have to try and come up with antagonists assuming both groups that make circles like Tomb of Dreams and ones like mine.

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