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  • Question about the Bronze Faction's feelings about unaffiliated Lunars.

    In the Lunar manual, the Sidereals affiliated with the Realm are mentioned primarily for their role in the Usurpation, the Wyld Hunt and their constant opposition to the Silver Pact. When alliances are alluded to, they concern members of the Gold or the Independants.

    But do you guys think members of the Bronze Faction would be amenable to working closely with Lunars that are not members of the Silver Pact and are even unequivocally opposed to it?
    I'm not playing right now so this is purely conceptual, but I had in mind for a character concept a loyal and competent but unappreciated mortal Dynast that was exalted by Luna and who in a fit of jealousy and anger chose to use his new found powers to usurp the identity of a young and inept Dragonblooded member of his House.

    If he remains loyal to the Realm and actually proves himself more efficient than the family member he replaced do you think it likely or at least possible in the setting as it stands for the Bronze Faction to make tentative contact and possibly help in maintaining the charade once vetted ? Would they think it to high a risk and attempt to terminate?
    Last edited by Plastic Doll; 01-18-2020, 07:34 AM.

  • #2
    As I understand it, Bronze Faction Sidereals are pretty well dedicated to the Realm. The Realm is pretty well dedicated to the belief that all Lunar Exalted are Anathema. In general, the Bronze Sidereals are likely to assume Lunars are their enemies.

    But the Sidereals do know the actual backstory here. If the Lunar is really on board with the Realm (or willing to act like it) and doesn't want to rock the Bronze Faction boat...the Sidereals would be unwise to turn down that asset, right? If going along with this Lunar's impersonation strategy suits the nearest Sidereal's plans, they might as well.

    At the least, though, I'd expect them to draw up some contingency plans. Someone's going to notice something wrong eventually, probably sooner rather than later.

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    • #3
      Regardless of what the canon says: that sounds like a fun story concept and therefore you should allow it at your table.


      Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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      • #4
        I am of the opinion that the Bronze Faction, as a whole (and in particular the current leadership) can't afford to take the chance the Lunar might turn on them. At best, they might turn a blind eye as long as the Lunar stays out of their way on the edge of Creation... and might occasionally make alliances of convenience should their interests overlap at times. By and large however, the Bronze Faction would probably go the practical route and eliminate a potential threat long before it ever becomes an actual threat... simply because they can't risk doing otherwise.

        Some may wish there was another way but feel trapped by their choices to do what they believe must be done to preserve all of Creation... and if that means sacrificing a Lunar that could, under the right circumstances be a potential ally, then so be it. The Fate of all Creation outweighs the Fate of a single Lunar Exalt (even if that Exalt's Fate couldn't change it one way or the other).


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        • #5
          Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
          Regardless of what the canon says: that sounds like a fun story concept and therefore you should allow it at your table.
          Second.

          If you find it awesome, run with it & don't look back.

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          • #6
            I imagine it would be like the Mission Impossible briefing. You know "If you or any member of your team are captured the secretary will disavow any knowledge of you." So while they would be willing to provide support, probably a scaling thing as the Chronicle progresses, it would be with an understanding that the Lunar can not count on them backing them up if it all hits the fan. (Not that it would never happen, just don't count on it.)

            Sounds fun, tricky, but fun.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Plastic Doll View Post
              But do you guys think members of the Bronze Faction would be amenable to working closely with Lunars that are not members of the Silver Pact and are even unequivocally opposed to it?
              Originally posted by Plastic Doll View Post
              I'm not playing right now so this is purely conceptual, but I had in mind for a character concept a loyal and competent but unappreciated mortal Dynast that was exalted by Luna and who in a fit of jealousy and anger chose to use his new found powers to usurp the identity of a young and inept Dragonblooded member of his House.
              Well, here's the thing - he might be ideologically-aligned with the Sidereals (even if he's ignorant of them), but he's still murdering a Realm Dragon-Blooded in a fit of anger and assuming his shape to step into his life. I'd think a Sidereal who discovered that would not be unreasonable in assuming he had something nefarious planned.

              Originally posted by Plastic Doll View Post
              If he remains loyal to the Realm and actually proves himself more efficient than the family member he replaced do you think it likely or at least possible in the setting as it stands for the Bronze Faction to make tentative contact and possibly help in maintaining the charade once vetted ?
              The circumstances by which they discover him might also be a factor.

              Originally posted by Plastic Doll View Post
              Would they think it to high a risk and attempt to terminate?
              I think it's just one of those things that's going to be driven by context.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
                I think it's just one of those things that's going to be driven by context.
                Oh absolutely. I mean, I'm talking about a lone Lunar being in talk with members of the Bronze so obviously the answer will be far more contextual than if the Sidereals were forging an alliance with an entire organisation.

                i just wanted the forum's opinion as to whether it was something they'd consider within the bounds of possibility without needing to retcon anything setting wise. In the backstory I'm writing to try and justify the Sidereals not attacking him offhand, he would have used in newfound position to solidify various businesses belonging to his House and particularly throwing another Lunar under the bus by notifying the Wyld Hunt of his presence and having him killed.

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                • #9
                  I'd think that there might be Bronze Faction members who would still want them dead on ideological grounds, or just because the mercurial nature of the Lunars means it just isn't safe; maybe this one is legit, honest, and maybe even still a pious Immmaculate, but what if one of his kind kill him and take *his* place somewhere down the line? Elder Sidereals might consider it that Lunar a useful asset, though. Especially if they can manage the right amount and degree of leverage.

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                  • #10
                    I don’t think it’s been mentioned in this thread yet, but the leading cause of Sidereal Death in Creation?

                    LUNAR EXALTED

                    And considering this is the Bronze faction we are talking about who are probably 300% more likely to be eaten by a Chosen of Luna than the Gold Faction (probably?) there is likely a large population of Bronze Sidereals who think: “My Lover/Mentor/Disciple/Best Friend got killed by one of these Silver fucks. Every one of them is better off a rug in my Lounge. Every Mangy One.”
                    Last edited by prototype00; 01-20-2020, 08:07 AM.

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                    • #11
                      The Sidereals have two choices here: kill him, and have Luna Exalt someone else in his stead (who, given Luna's predilections, will be overwhelmingly likely less positive about the Immaculate Faith, and probably live in the arse-end of nowhere where they will have no way to reach her before she grows in power to become a considerable threat), or keep him around serving the interests of the Realm. I know which one I'd choose.
                      Last edited by aluminiumtrioxid; 01-20-2020, 08:03 AM.


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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Jefepato View Post

                        But the Sidereals do know the actual backstory here.
                        Sure, but that backstory is one in which the Sidereals usurped the Lunars as well as the Solars.

                        It's my understanding that the general opinion of the Bronze Faction is that the Usurpation happened and the Wyld Hunt is necessary because the power of the Unconquered Sun and Luna is too great for mortals to sustain and keep their sanity or morality intact, and it's best to use whatever means available to limit the extent of their authority and eliminate them where possible.

                        For a scenario such as this I wouldn't say definitively don't do it, but that this is a context in which enormous tension hangs on the edge of a razor. I should think that Sidereals of the Bronze Faction who are willing to let this Lunar be and cooperate directly view the question of a point at which they show the reasons for the Wyld Hunt not as a matter of if, but when. I should think that those are conditions in which the first time the Lunar does something with the least bit of bad metrics, they're not going to be given an opportunity to explain themselves.

                        Originally posted by Mockery View Post
                        or just because the mercurial nature of the Lunars means it just isn't safe; maybe this one is legit, honest
                        But on a long enough timeline they're probably going to Limit Break where a Sidereal can see them or where they hear about the aftermath, and I cannot imagine that being a thing you walk back from.
                        Last edited by Isator Levi; 01-20-2020, 08:42 AM.


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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                          For a scenario such as this I wouldn't say definitively don't do it, but that this is a context in which enormous tension hangs on the edge of a razor. I should think that Sidereals of the Bronze Faction who are willing to let this Lunar be and cooperate directly view the question of a point at which they show the reasons for the Wyld Hunt not as a matter of if, but when. I should think that those are conditions in which the first time the Lunar does something with the least bit of bad metrics, they're not going to be given an opportunity to explain themselves.
                          That for sure, but we can't forget another factor - age and strength. It might be okay to just monitor a young and weak Lunar, because the chances of salvaging the situation if/when the Lunar will eventually go bad are quite high. It's something else once that very same Lunar gets older, stronger, more experienced and cunning. By then, the desire to be more proactive with that damage control will probably get stronger and stronger - after all, what if said Lunar goes bad, and we'd no longer be able to contain them anymore?

                          So, i would not be surprised if some sort of (very controlled, of course) cooperation might be achieved short term. Long term however, i just don't see it working out. There's however no reason to tell that to the Lunar in question - if they don't know that a cooperation plan already assumes that the partnership will be terminated (with extreme prejudice) at some point, the termination part will go so much easier, after all.
                          Last edited by Astralporing; 01-20-2020, 11:16 AM.



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                          • #14
                            Generally speaking, I don't disagree with any of the points raised in this thread. But something to consider:

                            The Queen of Fangs is alive.

                            The Sids know a Lunar exists. They know she's powerful. They know she opposes the Realm. They know she's a baby eating monster. They know she has a powerful artifact that they really want.

                            But The Queen of Fangs is still alive.

                            Has been for over a thousand years.

                            Much as the Bronze Faction might (or might not, but for argument's sake, let's just consider "might") want to kill every single Lunar Anathema, they can't. They know they can't.

                            In Realm Year 768, not only can they not kill every single Lunar, but the Solars are back too.

                            If you can raise a Wyld Hunt, then you're sending it against the Walker in Darkness, not the only helpful Lunar in the world. You'd have to be absolutely Lawful Stupid to be a Sid who turns down any help they can get.

                            Realm Year 748, before the Solars return, when there is like, one, glowing Icewalker in the world? Sure, that Lunar is going to be immediately betrayed and murdered.

                            Present day? Even if the Bronze Faction want the Lunar dead, who is going to do the actual killing?

                            Absolute worst case, as I interpret the situation, that Lunar is going to be sent on Suicide Squad/Last Chancer's style missions by their Sid handlers. (Which sounds like an awesome game to me.)


                            Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                              Generally speaking, I don't disagree with any of the points raised in this thread. But something to consider:

                              The Queen of Fangs is alive.

                              The Sids know a Lunar exists. They know she's powerful. They know she opposes the Realm. They know she's a baby eating monster. They know she has a powerful artifact that they really want.

                              But The Queen of Fangs is still alive.

                              Has been for over a thousand years.

                              Much as the Bronze Faction might (or might not, but for argument's sake, let's just consider "might") want to kill every single Lunar Anathema, they can't. They know they can't.

                              In Realm Year 768, not only can they not kill every single Lunar, but the Solars are back too.

                              If you can raise a Wyld Hunt, then you're sending it against the Walker in Darkness, not the only helpful Lunar in the world. You'd have to be absolutely Lawful Stupid to be a Sid who turns down any help they can get.

                              Realm Year 748, before the Solars return, when there is like, one, glowing Icewalker in the world? Sure, that Lunar is going to be immediately betrayed and murdered.

                              Present day? Even if the Bronze Faction want the Lunar dead, who is going to do the actual killing?

                              Absolute worst case, as I interpret the situation, that Lunar is going to be sent on Suicide Squad/Last Chancer's style missions by their Sid handlers. (Which sounds like an awesome game to me.)
                              Valid. Practical concerns often make execution of doctrine impossible.

                              You know all those stories about operatives on opposite sides of a political divide who realize they have more in common with each other than with their bosses? Those can all be mined for particular Sidereal/Lunar alliances. But do keep in mind that if you're leaning into Creation's critical materialist-oriented réalpolitik take on how everyone behaves, the Lunar who tries to approach Sidereals like an MMORPG PC looking for questgivers with yellow exclamation points over their heads is probably going to get immediately ganked because it's just so easy that the Sidereal in that situation cannot argue "Circumstances prevented execution of doctrine in this context." (But not everyone leans into that in actual play; honestly most people seem to lean away from it, so.)

                              In the case of Plastic Doll's scenario, depending on the Sidereal who notices the Lunar, there's a chance the Lunar could get recruited as an asset, but for how that's likely to play out you want to look for any espionage story where, like, a criminal or foreign citizen or someone gets recruited by the government or police -- probably a lot of effort made by the handler to keep the Lunar feeling valuable, coupled with a lot of concealed distrust and don't-let-the-wolfman-know-he's-disposable. See the wikipedia entry for useful idiot.

                              And, like, if you want to turn that into a 50k word slow burn enemies to lovers fic, go ahead. Seems like it could work. Creation's politics are in extreme flux right now -- who's to say that, given how fucking insane things are about to get, today's risky deniable asset won't become next decade's historically implausible unquestionably loyal greatest acknowledged hero of the bronze faction?
                              Last edited by Stephen Lea Sheppard; 01-20-2020, 01:50 PM.

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