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Dragon-blooded Charm vs Solar Charms

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  • Dragon-blooded Charm vs Solar Charms

    I'm doing a new post because Lioness (I think ?) suggested to try to to more new topics instead of asking everything on Ask a question, get an answer.

    I guess there has been a topic about this in the past, but did anyone do a comparison between Solar Charms and Dragon-blooded from an ergonomic point of view ? I feel like Solars have more Charms, but I also know a lot of them are only dice tricks, or poorly designed in relation to the other Charms in regards to the number total number of Charms.

    How is it going for Dragon-Blooded ? I have played DB only once, and it was quite fun. I felt like I had less options at hand, but I also felt like I had less "filler" Charms, even though they were less powerful than Solar's, they seemed to serve a clearer purpose to me. There were dice tricks as well, and I still don't know what I think of them : In a game where you can roll between 15 and 30 dices, and quite regularly can go over 10 successes, what do I think of dice tricks ? I accepted them more for Dragon-Blooded because I knew they were needed if I wanted to come closer to Solar prowesses, but I think this is misconception on my part because I'm used to Solar results.


    My homebrew (Leave comments if you want to help improve) : A quick recap of all the pools and stats for Quick Exalted 3E characters

  • #2
    Solars definitely have more charms and more ability to combine charms. So you can do things like fire off a combo with ten different charms enhancing it and do crazy things that send the numbers through the roof. As you grow your ability to make those crazy numbers happen gets bigger and bigger.

    With Dragonblooded it’s more like a toolbox of different abilities. A lot of them are simple or restricted by Aura and so can’t combine together very much. On the other hand a much greater percentage of them do things that are big flashy effects or just unlock an ability that you couldn’t even attempt before. That way as you grow in power your toolbox gets bigger and bigger.

    I personally like it a lot, they’re both good ways to go about it.

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    • #3
      Probably worth noting that "Dragon blooded have less charms" isn't supposed to be true in-universe. It's just a product of wordcount constraints.

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      • #4
        I think it was also a design choice. The sheer size of many of the Solar trees is pretty daunting. The DB ones are fairly large still and are getting expansions in Heirs to the Shogunate as well.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
          Solars definitely have more charms and more ability to combine charms. So you can do things like fire off a combo with ten different charms enhancing it and do crazy things that send the numbers through the roof. As you grow your ability to make those crazy numbers happen gets bigger and bigger.

          With Dragonblooded it’s more like a toolbox of different abilities. A lot of them are simple or restricted by Aura and so can’t combine together very much. On the other hand a much greater percentage of them do things that are big flashy effects or just unlock an ability that you couldn’t even attempt before. That way as you grow in power your toolbox gets bigger and bigger.

          I personally like it a lot, they’re both good ways to go about it.
          When discovering them Solar Charms makes you feel like you have infinite possibility, but with more time I find myself annoyed by a huge amount of Charms that use mechanically complex ways of saying "You roll more dices". I didn't feel like this when playing DB, which was quite good.


          My homebrew (Leave comments if you want to help improve) : A quick recap of all the pools and stats for Quick Exalted 3E characters

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Chausse View Post

            When discovering them Solar Charms makes you feel like you have infinite possibility, but with more time I find myself annoyed by a huge amount of Charms that use mechanically complex ways of saying "You roll more dices". I didn't feel like this when playing DB, which was quite good.
            I think I generally prefer it as well. It’s slightly less concerned with raw power and charm interactions and more focused on just doing cool shit. The signature charms especially, become a living tangle of brambles, breathe fire, fly, redirect attacks at foes, melt into stone ect.

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            • #7
              Yeah I think there is something amiss around there in the Solar Charms. We can still home-brew Charms of course, but I wouldn't be against a simple framework for how to make cool Charms for Solar.


              My homebrew (Leave comments if you want to help improve) : A quick recap of all the pools and stats for Quick Exalted 3E characters

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              • #8
                On "Does cool shit" vs "More dice" I wonder how much of how much of that is wholly intentional vs core devs initially planning for Evocations and Sorcery to do more heavy lifting on those aspects, and Charms not so much needing to? And whether the design would end up the same in retrospect?

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                • #9
                  I’m not a dev but I think the Solars more dice is, essentially, their cool shit. They don’t have an athletics charm that lets them rush an enemy while igniting a blazing line of bonfire all along their path that burns their foes, but they have a charm that lets them attempt any feat of strength, no matter how big, and do so with double 7s AND rerolling all failed dice. So they can grab a ten foot thick fortress wall and tear it down with their bare hands in a single action and Dragonblooded just can’t do that.

                  Dragonblooded have a flashy brawl charm that gives them a huge watery tentacle exo-body thing that gives them a huge plethora of abilities, but a Solar brawler can grapple and shake a creature the size of Juggernaut, and DBs can’t.

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                  • #10
                    I agree that Solars being able to get sky-high successes is their coolness. Winning is the theme, after all.

                    My Dragon-Blooded game has the players using Dragon-Blooded Charms quite a bit, and I get the impression they like the flavor of the different Excellencies. We're not Essence 3 yet, so no signatures. However, it's a warstrider game, so most of the distinctiveness is in their Evocations.


                    Sand Creek, or The Inspection of Cracks in the Desert Cecelyne - A Solar buddy travel fanfiction.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Ghosthead View Post
                      On "Does cool shit" vs "More dice" I wonder how much of how much of that is wholly intentional vs core devs initially planning for Evocations and Sorcery to do more heavy lifting on those aspects, and Charms not so much needing to? And whether the design would end up the same in retrospect?
                      I'm almost certain this was at least part of the ideal and it even fits solar's to a T with their universal Resonant ability with Artifacts and being able to achieve the highest highs in Sorcery. And as I've discovered, a single lore character with Wake the Sleeper open A LOT of nifty unique powers for them.

                      Honestly the real issues with Solar charms at times is that some abilities don't really care about
                      threshold successes as much as others.

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                      • #12
                        I enjoy the tight, concise Charm trees of DBs and the various angles they approach their Ability from. DB Bureaucracy is one of my favorite trees because it feels like a really interesting stage for the elements' different personalities to shine. Also because I just like Bureaucracy as an ability even if the Solar tree doesn't feel especially exciting. And then there's Wind-Carried Words Technique, aka Glorious Terrestrial Cellphone, which is wonderful.

                        I also think one big change in the old devs/new devs split that at least slightly exacerbates Solar charm tree enormity compared to others is that what the old devs would split into separately-named, separately-listed charms, the new devs seem more likely to format as automatic charm upgrades or higher-requirement repurchases.


                        Abyssals: Whom Death Has Called, a PEACH-as-heck attempt to make an Abyssal 3E holdover.

                        Where I try to make Artifacts. When I finish them I'll probably post them in the Artifact Workshop thread so people can help me hammer them into shape.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
                          I’m not a dev but I think the Solars more dice is, essentially, their cool shit. They don’t have an athletics charm that lets them rush an enemy while igniting a blazing line of bonfire all along their path that burns their foes, but they have a charm that lets them attempt any feat of strength
                          But Solar Athletics DOES have a Charm for substituting a normal rush action with "I am instantly at close range with you, and I get to make an enhanced attack as well", as well as a Charm for "I get to make a normal rush action against you from outside the usual range for a rush action, and also I get TWO reflexive advances on you instead of one".

                          THAT is "do cool shit" rather than "moar dice".

                          Solars get their own tricks for breaking the universal rules of the game, on top of many dice tricks.


                          Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                            But Solar Athletics DOES have a Charm for substituting a normal rush action with "I am instantly at close range with you, and I get to make an enhanced attack as well", as well as a Charm for "I get to make a normal rush action against you from outside the usual range for a rush action, and also I get TWO reflexive advances on you instead of one".

                            THAT is "do cool shit" rather than "moar dice".

                            Solars get their own tricks for breaking the universal rules of the game, on top of many dice tricks.
                            Yeah that's really the kind of Charms I would like to see more in Solar. I already home-brew a good part of the Charms when I find them too weak or uninteresting but mandatory for players that they can buy a pack for a reduced cost because well, it's not fun for the player either.


                            My homebrew (Leave comments if you want to help improve) : A quick recap of all the pools and stats for Quick Exalted 3E characters

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                              But Solar Athletics DOES have a Charm for substituting a normal rush action with "I am instantly at close range with you, and I get to make an enhanced attack as well", as well as a Charm for "I get to make a normal rush action against you from outside the usual range for a rush action, and also I get TWO reflexive advances on you instead of one".

                              THAT is "do cool shit" rather than "moar dice".

                              Solars get their own tricks for breaking the universal rules of the game, on top of many dice tricks.
                              Well, yeah, and every exalt type has charms for adding more dice, at the very least they have excellencies for every action it’s not totally exclusive. Even their charms that aren’t just flat more dice tend towards just making that action better or more efficient or enhancing the scope in some way. They have an athletics charm to double damage, but not one to create a wide range environmental hazard that knocks targets back and prone with a big fiery shockwave.

                              Again, not exclusively true there’s some really out there charms, but considering the staggering size of the Solar charmset compared to the DB one the DBs have way fewer charms that enhance an action.

                              Edit: if we’re considering things like One More Step and Living Wind Approach to be “do cool shit” charms then I can’t agree with Chausse that Solars don’t have a lot of them, they have literally hundreds of them.
                              Last edited by DrLoveMonkey; 01-22-2020, 01:55 PM.

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