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  • #61
    Originally posted by mark View Post
    That is, if they killed a raksha in pre-creation time, it stayed dead.
    Were there raksha in pre-Creation?

    Originally posted by mark View Post
    After all the primordials were always static linear beings.
    Were they?

    Originally posted by mark View Post
    Autochthon was always the inventor. Theion was always the King etc
    If Theion was always the king, what of Mardukth, the Mountain and the Beast Upon It?

    Originally posted by mark View Post
    I do believe that(in the previous editions) time travel is possible.
    I don't believe that, in previous editions, going backward through time was possible.

    Originally posted by mark View Post
    Books talk about how time magic was used during the primordial war.
    Time-dilation can be a thing without necessarily being able to visit the past.

    Originally posted by mark View Post
    To this day the yozis can declare that an event that happened in hell within the last 5 days never happened.
    Not quite. In 2e and only 2e, an Exalt could ask a Yozi to reshape Hell to effectively undo some event that had happened there in the last five days. So if I killed Gervesin in the Demon City right before a sorcerer in Creation had planned to summon him, and then a day after the attempted summoning fails, ask Malfeas to restore Gervesin to life, the sorcerer's summoning spell will still have failed. New!Gervesin won't just be shaped into existence chilling on the sorcerer's couch.

    ​More importantly, it's not something that got carried over into 3e, so saying "to this day" they can do it, isn't accurate either.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by mark View Post

      I was always under the impression that primordials carried their own linearity. That is, if they killed a raksha in pre-creation time, it stayed dead. After all the primordials were always static linear beings. Autochthon was always the inventor. Theion was always the King etc
      In the same way that a Rhaksha might carry its own internalized view of how events have transpired, maybe but 2e covered it the most and even if mentioned that Rhaksha with a more linear view of time tend to be ones that have come in contact with Creation and those that have managed to avoid it are under no such restriction. It also doesn't help that the utter madness of the of the Deep Wylds ,absent Creation it is all you'd have, the only way to differentiate a linear path would be one's own interpretation of events or maybe one forced upon you by another entity.

      As far as Primordial titles go, I'll give that they may have been what they were but that's less them being linear beings and more that 2e played them as more sentient concepts. Malfeas and his proto form were the king because they were a concept of king as was Mardukth also the king because he was a different concept of king. Also Oramus will always screw with that considering his origin in 2e was coming into existence after the other Primoridials to greet them and express how it had started getting worried they were never going to arrive/wake up with how long it had been waiting. Meaning Oramus predated itself.

      Originally posted by mark View Post

      I do believe that(in the previous editions) time travel is possible. Books talk about how time magic was used during the primordial war. It is something that changed after the war. For whatever reason. To this day the yozis can declare that an event that happened in hell within the last 5 days never happened.
      First the measure was under half an hour (possibly significantly, but its late and I don't want to look through the books for specifics) not almost a week, and that was openly declared a case of not true just ignore it by the devs of the time. It has certainly not been carried over into 3rd.



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      • #63
        Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
        Were there raksha in pre-Creation?

        Were they?

        If Theion was always the king, what of Mardukth, the Mountain and the Beast Upon It?

        I don't believe that, in previous editions, going backward through time was possible.

        Time-dilation can be a thing without necessarily being able to visit the past.

        Not quite. In 2e and only 2e, an Exalt could ask a Yozi to reshape Hell to effectively undo some event that had happened there in the last five days. So if I killed Gervesin in the Demon City right before a sorcerer in Creation had planned to summon him, and then a day after the attempted summoning fails, ask Malfeas to restore Gervesin to life, the sorcerer's summoning spell will still have failed. New!Gervesin won't just be shaped into existence chilling on the sorcerer's couch.

        ​More importantly, it's not something that got carried over into 3e, so saying "to this day" they can do it, isn't accurate either.

        Sorry, by Raksha i meant the unshaped
        Theion was always the king in the sense that he always embodied kingship/authority Metaphysically. He did not always have this role because he happened to wake up far away from his brethren
        No, previous books were explicit. Such as "primordial x died between the first week and the 180 year of the war because extensive use of time magic makes coherent records impossible.
        When i said "to this day" I meant in-game not out of game. I was not aware that this got retconned to be honest.

        Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

        It doesn't disappear on reincarnation, but on death. The mark is still there to be identified on the newborn before they're given a soul gem, but they need that soul gem to be sure that they'll have a new mark for the next life. Note also that part of the reason to capture the soul is to give the Luminors the opportunity to record the new mark; it would be useless to mark a soul if you didn't know what it looked like.



        What do you think a baby suddenly given the memories of a full lifetime will be like? Will they at all resemble the dead person?

        One thing I always found interesting about the Dragon Kings was that while they had a form of reincarnation that allowed access to all the previous lifetime's memories and thus had an expectation that you were a continuation of that life, there were acknowledgements that this was a cultural construct rather than something completely accurate. With the fact that full access to those memories only came with higher Essence, it was recognised that there would be time for an individual to form their own personality and aspirations before they ever felt much like the last person, so it never really was a case of people simply resurrecting perpetually, even if their society acted as though it was.



        Suppose I reincarnate the soul of an ancient Roman person, even with the capacity to develop accurate memories of that life, in the body of a lifelong inhabitant of, let's say, San Francisco. Is the end result likely to be identical to the original Roman?



        It doesn't do anything, it just exists until you do a bunch of things like Salina did to implant it in reality.

        Shinmaic Calibration was an interesting attempt to represent the Salinan Working as an elder power while still being reconciled with those things I said before about not totally overwhelming the setting, but it's still very apparent that it's cobbled together post hoc and not an entirely smooth fit. It relies a bit on the reader to not pick at the gaps too much.

        Workings as a basic power of sorcery from the outset is ultimately more functional, and accessible.
        Exactly, dragon king memories come back with higher essence. But what if you forcibly gave a human his full memories back upon birth. Of course i have no idea what would happen, neurologically, to a baby if this were to occur. Or for that matter a baby that had its body magically aged to adulthood, but was still a baby in terms of having 0 experiences.

        Memory is most explicitly NOT the same as aptitude after all... and a baby has none. Would it suffer a psychosis? Permanent insanity?

        It's worth noting that in Exalted giving someone an aptitude(such as an ability) seems to be very difficult, but i'll have to relook the specific charms again.


        Concerning shinmaic communation, upon reading the charms i get the impression that
        the charm is completely useless without shinmaic calibration. It only does cosmetic effects




        Last edited by mark; 02-10-2020, 07:07 AM.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by mark View Post
          No, previous books were explicit. Such as "primordial x died between the first week and the 180 year of the war because extensive use of time magic makes coherent records impossible.
          That is easily a consequence of time dilation, and arguably makes far more sense for it.

          Originally posted by mark
          Exactly
          Indeed; you're not resurrecting somebody, you're making a new person that is weird.

          Originally posted by mark
          Concerning shinmaic communation, upon reading the charms i get the impression that
          the charm is completely useless without shinmaic calibration. It only does cosmetic effects
          The lowest form of Nirupadhika makes it impossible to get lost or to go anywhere other than a specific destination, the middle form can reduce travel times by half or more (I know I'd like to make hour long bus trips in ten minutes), the highest forms make a landmass that can be mobile or bigger on the inside.

          Dharma makes residing in the territory alter a person's Intimacies.

          Nirvishesha gives it Wyld qualities, an abundance of a particular kind of spirit, or control over the soul cycle.

          Low levels of Nishkriya make the populace more deeply inclined towards the Solar's wars, high levels make a landscape that will naturally act to assault any of their enemies that enter.

          And Nirvikalpa controls its mundane or mystical natural resources.

          Those are not purely cosmetic effects.


          I have approximate knowledge of many things.
          Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
          https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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          • #65
            Note that most of the lore about pre--war Primordials -- Mardukth, Theion, etc. -- came well after Exalted: The Fair Folk established Creation's creation as an event horizon after which time became fixed, and was made up by people who weren't even freelancers yet when E:tFF was written.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

              That is easily a consequence of time dilation, and arguably makes far more sense for it.



              Indeed; you're not resurrecting somebody, you're making a new person that is weird.



              The lowest form of Nirupadhika makes it impossible to get lost or to go anywhere other than a specific destination, the middle form can reduce travel times by half or more (I know I'd like to make hour long bus trips in ten minutes), the highest forms make a landmass that can be mobile or bigger on the inside.

              Dharma makes residing in the territory alter a person's Intimacies.

              Nirvishesha gives it Wyld qualities, an abundance of a particular kind of spirit, or control over the soul cycle.

              Low levels of Nishkriya make the populace more deeply inclined towards the Solar's wars, high levels make a landscape that will naturally act to assault any of their enemies that enter.

              And Nirvikalpa controls its mundane or mystical natural resources.

              Those are not purely cosmetic effects.

              Hmm, i guess we can just agree to disagree about that one. I know it would not technically be a resurrection, but if done very correctly i would view it as one for all practical intents and purposes
              Except for the fact that the created person would not have the same stats as the old one. E.g an ancient solar's intelligence 8 might become intelligence 5. His charisma 3 may become charisma 1-2. Maybe pushed a little more with various training effects but even they have a limit.
              So it's not a resurrection in the sense that you can not play the same character sheet i guess.


              Anyway, i've been reading shinmaic communion and calibration and they seem ... weird

              shinmaic communion says : five points tithed to nishkriya turn the region into a weapon against enemies who suffer one environmental attack per hour. This seems great but..

              Shinmaic calibration: The parameters of the effect depend on the shinmaic communion affecting the region

              Nirviklakpa determines the power of the miracle : zero points limits the effects to only the weakest happenstance effects with no mechanical repercussions

              These two seem contradictory. Should i take this to imply that shinmaic communion does some general stuff while calibration does something more specific?

              For example, under calibration the salinan working Nirupadhika 5 Nirvishesha 5 Dharma 4 Nishkriya 1 Nirvikalpa 2 Plus the greater powers needed for Nirupadhika 1+ effects

              So, in order to do this, would i also need some speficic Shinmaic Communion effects???

              Originally posted by Stephen Lea Sheppard View Post
              Note that most of the lore about pre--war Primordials -- Mardukth, Theion, etc. -- came well after Exalted: The Fair Folk established Creation's creation as an event horizon after which time became fixed, and was made up by people who weren't even freelancers yet when E:tFF was written.


              I suppose you could see that lore as allegorical, trying to explain pre-linear time to beings who never lived under it
              Still, do i get the impression that many exalted writers just never read the previous works or communicated with each other? Uhm, no offense meant to you personally




              Last edited by mark; 02-10-2020, 03:57 PM.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by mark View Post

                These two seem contradictory. Should i take this to imply that shinmaic communion does some general stuff while calibration does something more specific?
                Shinmaic Communion only does what each level says on the tin. Shinmaic Calibration can go bigger and have more precision, but how far each of its parameters can go is dependent on the seed territory.

                If you commune with the shinma to alter a place without so much as improvement to its forests and farmland, then you can't calibrate the shinma to do any more than create particular visual effects. If you commune to create a demesne, you can calibrate to make anything up to miracles akin to the most powerful sorcery.

                Originally posted by mark
                For example, under calibration the salinan working Nirupadhika 5 Nirvishesha 5 Dharma 4 Nishkriya 1 Nirvikalpa 2 Plus the greater powers needed for Nirupadhika 1+ effects

                So, in order to do this, would i also need some speficic Shinmaic Communion effects???
                In the starting territory, yes.

                Originally posted by mark
                Still, do i get the impression that many exalted writers just never read the previous works or communicated with each other?
                Pretty much.

                Exalted writers are freelancers. We've got freelancers who have a personal dedication to the line and are more invested in all of its elements, and ones for whom it's just another job. The latter does not make them bad writers, probably some of the best stuff in the game has been produced by some of them, but it puts the onus for book consistency more on the developer for the book and line.





                [/QUOTE]


                I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                  but it puts the onus for book consistency more on the developer for the book and line.
                  And, for 2nd edition from the start through Return of the Scarlet Empress, I don't think its continuity was well-served on the line level.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by mark View Post
                    Still, do i get the impression that many exalted writers just never read the previous works or communicated with each other?
                    That's not even the worst of it, there's writers who were in little edit wars with each other.



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                    Please spare a thought for updating the Exalted wiki.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Stephen Lea Sheppard View Post
                      I'm going to attempt to thread the needle and assert that sorcery and sorcerous workings are permanent but not indelible. The changes wrought by sorcery don't poof, and getting rid of one is never as easy as just flipping the magic back off, but, as they are real, they can be acted upon by outside forces just like any other real thing.

                      Note, however, also, that sorcerous workings aren't just, or even primarily meant to model "Local persistent change to the laws of physics." Their original source of inspiration was "How do we model stuff like Mazirian the Magician from Jack Vance's Dying Earth trying to create homonculi-people by growing progressively better ones in vats; he's clearly doing magical stuff but he's definitely not researching a spell that, once he knows it, he'll be able to spam to create more and more homonculi. What if we had some sort of system for one-off magical effects that let you do more freeform stuff than spells let you do, but which you have to basically research anew every time?" The sample sorcerous working in the corebook is just making a walking hut. Presumably you can start hitting it with your sword, at which point the ST has to make up some combat stats for it, and then if you win the fight you have a broken walking hut and a dead animating spirit that's no longer animating anything because it's dead.

                      There's even rules for getting your XP back if your working is ever completely nullified. It just, you know, has to be nullified by addressing what it does, and not by casting dispel magic. Which kinda returns us to the original question -- there's no resurrection magic because undoing stuff that's been done is never as easy as casting an undo spell. You can do something like undo, by binding a ghost into a homonculous and maybe even doing magical brain surgery on its hungry ghost and then stitching them back together or something, but you'll have to address all the problems as you find them, many of them won't be perfectly surmountable, and all the means you use to solve the problem are themselves real and create further change. No takeback; no matter how much you want to return things to an earlier state, you can only push them into further new ones.


                      Perhaps(going back to the set of choices the primordials made) this also explains why even healing magic is difficult in that setting. Relative to others anyway.

                      This raises an interesting question. Are the primordials themselves capable of re-engineering the universe NOW? Or does yozification permanently remove that capability? Many books imply that their surrender mutilations reduced their power to create and do the impossible

                      Or maybe the solar deliberative, at the height of its power, could do such a thing, if they were prepared for the consequences.



                      Originally posted by Lioness View Post
                      That's not even the worst of it, there's writers who were in little edit wars with each other.


                      I thought gamelines usually have some central director(s) or something. Someone to draw some lines in the sand. Or for that matter someone to look into the finished product and remove a few lines, instead of declaring them non canon later in a forum that people years later might not have access too.

                      Cause i sure as hell did not see any such thing in scrolls of errata or ink monkeys.

                      Not to mention someone to look at early drafts

                      Am i the only one who thinks the mechanics of scroll of heroes are bad lol ?



                      Last edited by mark; 02-11-2020, 11:16 AM.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by mark View Post
                        I thought gamelines usually have some central director(s) or something. Someone to draw some lines in the sand. Or for that matter someone to look into the finished product and remove a few lines, instead of declaring them non canon later in a forum that people years later might not have access too.
                        They should, but sometimes the oversight of more limited, and even at the best of times there can be discrepancies that aren't with getting hung up over.

                        There's also a matter of adhering to deadlines that can make having a writer do something over impractical.

                        Originally posted by mark
                        Cause i sure as hell did not see any such thing in scrolls of errata or ink monkeys.
                        Well, that wasn't really the function of either of those things.


                        I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                        Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                        https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by mark View Post
                          Am i the only one who thinks the mechanics of scroll of heroes are bad lol ?
                          The writer of the God-Blooded chapter came on to the WW forums when the book was released, and, well, the experience wasn't pleasant for him.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Verzio View Post
                            The writer of the God-Blooded chapter came on to the WW forums when the book was released, and, well, the experience wasn't pleasant for him.
                            That's really sad actually


                            My homebrew (Leave comments if you want to help improve) : A quick recap of all the pools and stats for Quick Exalted 3E characters

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                            • #74
                              It's not a sequence of events I'd allow to repeat no matter how bad the writing.


                              Onyx Path Forum Moderator
                              Please spare a thought for updating the Exalted wiki.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Verzio View Post
                                The writer of the God-Blooded chapter came on to the WW forums when the book was released, and, well, the experience wasn't pleasant for him.
                                A small but vocal part of Exalted's fanbase seems to be rather toxic...to say the least. I heard that back in the day some writer's had their lives threatened

                                Writing a horrible chapter(and it was indeed atrocious in terms of mechanics) does not even come close to justifying such behavior

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