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  • #16
    Originally posted by Gryphon's Feather View Post
    I'm pretty sure Sol literally can't keep from exalting people, even if he actively doesn't want to. Otherwise the Primordials could have just ordered him to stop.
    That was a Second Edition idea, wasn’t it?


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    • #17
      Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post

      That was a Second Edition idea, wasn’t it?
      I think (and this is as a latecomer to the setting who has been doing alot of catch up reading) that in 2nd edition, the process of exaltation was largely autonomous. The Exaltation itself zipped to the next worthy individual with little to no involvement from Sol Invictus. I imagine this was established to answer the question of why didn't the Primordials simply command their servants to stop exalting people.

      In third edition, they reframed the question a bit by saying that the Gods did not have to obey the Primordials in all things, so they had the ability to refuse a command to stop creating Exalted,and made the process of Exalting an act of divine will so singular that the Gods would not be able to stop exalting people even if they wanted to. I suspect this was changed in order to make the Exalt's feel more like they were deemed worthy by the Most High directly, rather than chosen by a divine answering service.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post

        That was a Second Edition idea, wasn’t it?
        Yup. In the 2e Lunars corebook, page 20, there's a quote that implies the god's geas is quite broad:

        the Primordials could have simply commanded the gods to order their Exalted to surrender
        Which you could take to mean the Primordials could have ordered the Incarna to stop the process of Exaltation if it was within their power. Obviously, Exigents of the post-Primordial War era could be designed without this at-the-time necessary feature.


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        • #19
          Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
          I've always seen his lack of action to be a mix of depression and not being perfect. He's not a omnibenevolent god, nor is he omnipotent. He's more supposed to be Jupiter than Jehovah. ...
          Note that's my take too. That he even Exalted folks at all in the interrum with what Exaltations he had to me kind of even feeds into that kind of narrative. He hates his Chosen betrayed him in his view, but well, he still likes them and the people who can become them enough that he keeps coming back. To me that his reluctance to do more than that being a combination of stubbornness as well as limits is something I think is a good case.

          And yeah, folks get a bit overly into the Abrahamic god take on him than I think is warranted.


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          • #20
            Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post

            That was a Second Edition idea, wasn’t it?
            It is. It's built on the assumption the Primordials had the abiltiy to give orders to the Incarna they couldn't refuse. 3e goes more to the 1e take: The Incarna just couldn't attack their creators. They didn't have to listen to them though. It's just that until they had the Exalted, they couldn't start shit or defend against. When they got their mistletoe, they could well have just told the enemies of the gods to piss off.


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            • #21
              Originally posted by Tikor View Post
              Yup. In the 2e Lunars corebook, page 20, there's a quote that implies the god's geas is quite broad:



              Which you could take to mean the Primordials could have ordered the Incarna to stop the process of Exaltation if it was within their power. Obviously, Exigents of the post-Primordial War era could be designed without this at-the-time necessary feature.
              Alternatively 3e just doesn't assume the gods can be ordered to do that and it kind of cutes out a lot of the logic trying ot justify why it wasn't. "Couldn't the Primordials have told them to stop?" can just be answered, "No, they couldn't."


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              • #22
                Originally posted by Gryphon's Feather View Post
                I'm pretty sure Sol literally can't keep from exalting people, even if he actively doesn't want to. Otherwise the Primordials could have just ordered him to stop.
                "Hey, stop that!"
                "Sorry, can't do it." {smug}
                "Fine, start killin' 'em all."
                "Aww snap, always one step ahead."


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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                  "Hey, stop that!"
                  "Sorry, can't do it." {smug}
                  "Fine, start killin' 'em all."
                  "Aww snap, always one step ahead."
                  yeah, according to statline, the Unconquered Sun is pretty fucking horrifying to fight. At least for 2e.

                  Unless they were laughing and mocking him for thinking that such a thing would work, until Primordials started dying.

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                  • #24
                    I don't think any of the up-thread suggestions are bad.

                    That said, my own, very acanonical, preference is to think that the Mandate of Heaven and perhaps the consequences of banishing the Primordials required a sort of metaphysical distancing of the Sun's power to act in the world to avoid destabilizing Creation. And really that the Incarna as a whole, though particularly the Sun, as the Maidens have their excuses. The Sun must work through the Great Chain of Being of his divine bureaucracy, and his bureaucracy is sometimes unstable and unresponsive to his dictates, particularly when its earthly counterpart is thrown into disarray by disasters like the Usurpation.

                    Perhaps slight difference in emphasis in that this is less tied up in his active, current, deeply held principles ("He's so morally committed to the Exalted's stewardship of the world!") or vices ("He cannot forgive the Exalted and cannot leave the Games of Divinity!"), and his own personal survival. That IMO has an advantage of allows players to potentially interact with the Sun as a distant moral "blank canvas" without leading to questions of his intervention in the world that undermine the thesis of the centrality of human heroism. It leans into the idea that the effective way to work with the Sun is directly through the Celestial Bureaucracy, and supports it as a setting element, in place of players wondering why they don't just show up and make direct appeals to him, and have him intervene directly.

                    I do think this is definitely a fundamental setting issue that could do with some thought by anyone working on the setting on a fundamental level, although whether its a good idea to ever nail it down in black-and-white IDK.

                    Another possibility I like almost as much is that the Maidens had already told the Sun how it would work out, and he didn't have enough of a problem with that scenario to go against it, perhaps because he saw that interventions by him would cause something worse, like a vast three-way war between the Exalted, Heaven and the Fair Folk, with Hell and the Dead seizing on the opportunity etc. The Sun is enormously excellent and thus we can guess pretty good at strategic prediction himself, and has the benefit of his Circle being quite literally the best seeing the future, themselves.

                    Either way I would personally be careful of necessarily tying it to elements of characterization in moral or principles.

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                    • #25
                      What I have the most difficulty finding is why he came back. I usually have no problem headcanoning these kind of things but I really have no idea for why he decided to care again for Creation


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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Chausse View Post
                        What I have the most difficulty finding is why he came back. I usually have no problem headcanoning these kind of things but I really have no idea for why he decided to care again for Creation
                        My understanding is that he cared about Creation.
                        Then the Solars ruined Creation and he turned his face away.
                        Then the Usurpation happened and the majority of Solars were locked away in the Jade Prison.
                        Sol then decides to give the Deebs a shot at running Creation, but still sporadically Exalted Solars and Exigents in extreme circumstances.
                        Then the Jade Prison was opened and this caused Sol to turn his face back to Creation.


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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                          My understanding is that he cared about Creation.
                          Then the Solars ruined Creation and he turned his face away.
                          Then the Usurpation happened and the majority of Solars were locked away in the Jade Prison.
                          Sol then decides to give the Deebs a shot at running Creation, but still sporadically Exalted Solars and Exigents in extreme circumstances.
                          Then the Jade Prison was opened and this caused Sol to turn his face back to Creation.
                          Yes but his talk when Exalting Perfect Soul seems to be like "Okay I'm back because I like you" but his last thing with Solars was that he was let down by them. I mean the answer could just be "He mourned enough and now he's ready to go" which would make sense as well


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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Chausse View Post
                            but his last thing with Solars was that he was let down by them. I mean the answer could just be "He mourned enough and now he's ready to go" which would make sense as well
                            Right, a thousand or more years have passed since then, it could very well be that he's come around again. Or maybe Luna convinced him to get back out there and give it another shot - sure, he's been burned before, but maybe those three hundred special someones out there this time won't let him down.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Chausse View Post

                              Yes but his talk when Exalting Perfect Soul seems to be like "Okay I'm back because I like you" but his last thing with Solars was that he was let down by them. I mean the answer could just be "He mourned enough and now he's ready to go" which would make sense as well
                              In his talk with Perfect Soul, he speaks of turning his face away. This, from other sources, is because of the Solars in the First Age.

                              When he turned away, I doubt he anticipated the Usurpation. 1E states that he basically turned a blind eye to the Usurpation figuring the Dragon-Blooded couldn't well do any worse than the Solars.

                              Then consider what happened: his chosen were hunted, his worship driven to obscurity, the Great Contagion. It's conceivable that Sol realized he made a mistake... but without his chosen he has no reason to turn his face back to Creation. He turned away, this is what happened.

                              But the Jade Prison opening gives Sol the means to meddle in the world of men again. It's a second chance. It's not one Sol has to take, he could have kept his face turned from the world... but he's chosen to turn back and use what he has.


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                              • #30
                                A way to look at it is that after fifteen centuries or more, he's decided to give this another shot. Whether or not he gets burned for it is another matter. But I have this "I'm giving you all another shot" vibe to this. It doens't really need much more than that since he's in the end a person and people decide to do that short of thing or not all the time.


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