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  • #91
    Last session, I thought, hmmm, the Dragonblood compound I've been watching is guarded by a few bird spirits and a lion-dog in the spirit world. I should summon up a demon-spider so that if I end up attacking the compound, I can send it to distract the spirits and keep them off my back. But... ah, they're such a hassle. You've basically got to babysit the damn things or they'll no doubt get into some trouble. Laying eggs that hatch into eerie demon-tales, or eating priests, or whatever. And Kovan is an Essence 5 Lunar wizard, how useful is a first-circle demon going to be in a fight with anything that's a challenge for him?
    And in the end... I'm glad I didn't bother, because I had to stop watching the compound and go to a soiree at the Perfect's palace anyway.


    My experience with sorcery, having played 3 celestial sorcerers, is that you have a bunch of individual powers which don't really combine well, but are each quite useful in unusual circumstances. Most of my spells I actually very rarely used, but when I did use them they were very effective. Combat spells you can use a lot if you're a combat-sorcerer, but combat-sorcery isn't actually that good (except vs battle groups). Transport spells and communication spells on the other hand are used so damn much that they eat up all your willpower! (Which is why my second sorcerer didn't know any.)

    One of my friends played a Solar sorcerer who did a ton of workings. And these workings did all sorts of amazing things. But... they do cost xp. I think he spent 60xp on workings. Actually, some of the other players thought that character was by far the most powerful, with her wings and her heart of fire and all her dragons and golems and nation of magical Melniboneans. Whereas the player felt that she actually wasn't that great (except for Death Ray, which was basically how she fought 60% of her fights), because of putting so much xp into workings, making the character weaker in her own capabilities in any short-term situations we found ourselves in (because workings do take a long time, even for a Solar sorcerer with 20+ dice). Because workings do have weaknesses.


    Now, saying all this, yes absolutely it is a very strong yet (generally, not always) unthematic choice for a Dawn to take Occult 3, Terrestrial sorcery and Invulnerable Skin of Bronze as a control spell. But I think that's because Invulnerable Skin of Bronze (as a control spell) is maybe just a bit too good.

    In terms of Demons, there is the issue that you probably want maxed-out pools or your demon may escape, and that is an investment... but then, it's not a big investment.

    Not, saying all this, that I would complain if Sorcery needed 4 Occult or Lore charms as a prerequisite or something.


    I play...
    Kovan, actor, librarian, sorcerer, great bear, Lunar Elder from the First Age
    Thutmose-Osiris, seventh son of a seventh son, descendant of the Supreme Deity Sukhmet, renegade demigod and bearer of the Ghoul-Banishing Bow. Also bright green.

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
      In terms of Demons, there is the issue that you probably want maxed-out pools or your demon may escape, and that is an investment... but then, it's not a big investment.
      Even with Int 2, Occ 3 you'll successfully bind a resolve 3 Demon of the 1st circle almost 9 times out of 10 if you use your excellency and it's almost 19 times out of 20 if you stunt as well. Given the the most likely result of failing is having to spend another 4 motes (so you don't flare your anima beyond your caste mark) to banish it I think the primary problem of a low Occult Solar summoner is keeping the behavior of your bound demons in check rather than the 1 in 100s chance of setting a unbound demon loose.

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      • #93
        Originally posted by Speedbump View Post
        Even with Int 2, Occ 3 you'll successfully bind a resolve 3 Demon of the 1st circle almost 9 times out of 10 if you use your excellency and it's almost 19 times out of 20 if you stunt as well. Given the the most likely result of failing is having to spend another 4 motes (so you don't flare your anima beyond your caste mark) to banish it I think the primary problem of a low Occult Solar summoner is keeping the behavior of your bound demons in check rather than the 1 in 100s chance of setting a unbound demon loose.
        Also if you're a circle of Solars a single bloodape isn't really even worth busting the dice out for.

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        • #94
          Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

          Also if you're a circle of Solars a single bloodape isn't really even worth busting the dice out for.
          Well yea, but if the failure chance were higher you might actually have to worry about what that immaterial Agata that took one look at the Dawn and flew off would get up to.

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
            My experience with sorcery, having played 3 celestial sorcerers, is that you have a bunch of individual powers which don't really combine well, but are each quite useful in unusual circumstances. Most of my spells I actually very rarely used, but when I did use them they were very effective. Combat spells you can use a lot if you're a combat-sorcerer, but combat-sorcery isn't actually that good (except vs battle groups). Transport spells and communication spells on the other hand are used so damn much that they eat up all your willpower! (Which is why my second sorcerer didn't know any.)
            I've always wondered how the Brilliant Raptor Sniper Combat sorceror build worked in real play. If you have a high enough Willpower, you can launch 10+ damage decisives around every other turn from base Init, did you ever see one or get to play one?

            prototype00

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            • #96
              Originally posted by Speedbump View Post
              Even with Int 2, Occ 3 you'll successfully bind a resolve 3 Demon of the 1st circle almost 9 times out of 10 if you use your excellency and it's almost 19 times out of 20 if you stunt as well. Given the the most likely result of failing is having to spend another 4 motes (so you don't flare your anima beyond your caste mark) to banish it I think the primary problem of a low Occult Solar summoner is keeping the behavior of your bound demons in check rather than the 1 in 100s chance of setting a unbound demon loose.
              I didn't realise it was that easy.
              Sigh...


              I play...
              Kovan, actor, librarian, sorcerer, great bear, Lunar Elder from the First Age
              Thutmose-Osiris, seventh son of a seventh son, descendant of the Supreme Deity Sukhmet, renegade demigod and bearer of the Ghoul-Banishing Bow. Also bright green.

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by prototype00 View Post

                I've always wondered how the Brilliant Raptor Sniper Combat sorceror build worked in real play. If you have a high enough Willpower, you can launch 10+ damage decisives around every other turn from base Init, did you ever see one or get to play one?

                prototype00
                I haven't.
                Combine it with the Ifrit-initiation and have it as a control spell and it's even better.

                Still, any combat style that doesn't involve gaining initiative is a risky one, due to crash.


                I play...
                Kovan, actor, librarian, sorcerer, great bear, Lunar Elder from the First Age
                Thutmose-Osiris, seventh son of a seventh son, descendant of the Supreme Deity Sukhmet, renegade demigod and bearer of the Ghoul-Banishing Bow. Also bright green.

                Comment


                • #98
                  So I was wondering if I could get some help tuning a potential PC. I want to play a str focused supernatural Ath night caste. As such, he's looking at Str 5 and Mighty Thews 3 to start, along with Giant (doesn't actually make him stronger, but fits the Concept and might let him explain away some charms). He's probably looking at grapple brawl. Is Brawl 5 with dex 3 going to be basically fine, or will it mean he's trivializing combat encounters? Besides Brawl, he's probably looking at Ath 5 (Strength). Assume he wants to be able to beat up some dudes, maybe a DB or wrestle something suitability beefy. I'm not trying to make Invincible Punch Dude, here (or I'd be playing a Brawl Dawn), but it's important that his Str is basically Unmatched. And actually getting to hit or grab people is kind of important to making him more than just 'the guy who whiffs all the time'. Also, I'm debating where to put his Stamina. Another 5 is affordable, and fits the mental image, as well as making Resistance charms work better. Tentatively, he's probably taking Iron Skin Concentration, 1 Ox-Body, Vicious Lunge, Devil Strangling Attitude, and Armor Eating Strike. Too many combat charms? 3 defensive, 3 offensive, and a Ox-Body?

                  Edit: Most of my previous experience is in prior editions, so I am under the impression that soak and resistance are generally worse than not getting hit, and that dex is the combat stat that really makes a difference. Please let me know if these assumptions need to be updated.
                  Last edited by Scrollreader; 09-16-2020, 11:48 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Dex 3 Brawl 5 and 7 Charms will put you solidly in the mid-tier in a typical group. You will demolish officially-statted opponents (but this is a feature). However, if your group is very light on combat-capable characters, you might want to drop your Brawl score by a dot or two (swapping Devil-Strangling Attitude for Fists of Iron or Thunderclap Rush Attack as you no longer qualify).

                    Mind that a lot of opponents don't really have an answer to a 20 dice grapple followed by 20 dice on control followed by a Slam.
                    Last edited by aluminiumtrioxid; 09-16-2020, 12:00 PM.


                    Evocations for the demonic tattoos gained from the Pact with Mara sorcerous initiation || Pyre-Kindler (Soulsteel and Red Jade Grimscythe, Artifact 3) || Tenebrous Descent (Stormcaller's Black Jade Reaver Daiklave cousin, Artifact 5)
                    Advice for running the corebook shikari antagonists

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by aluminiumtrioxid View Post
                      However, if your group is very light on combat-capable characters, you might want to drop your Brawl score by a dot or two (swapping Devil-Strangling Attitude for Fists of Iron or Thunderclap Rush Attack as you no longer qualify).
                      Got to talk to the ST and the other players, but : What if I reduced dex to 2 and kept Brawl at 5? My inner self is cringing at trying to fight with dex 2, but that would leave me with a parry of 4. And still let me grapple with Str.

                      Originally posted by aluminiumtrioxid View Post
                      Mind that a lot of opponents don't really have an answer to a 20 dice grapple followed by 20 dice on control followed by a Slam.
                      Is this a thing? I'm still wrapping my head around generous charm use without a defensive combo, but blowing 20 motes like that seems ... unwise. Combat drip will bring 5 back, but that seems like a really, really big expenditure, and kind of leaves me hanging.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Scrollreader View Post
                        Is this a thing? I'm still wrapping my head around generous charm use without a defensive combo, but blowing 20 motes like that seems ... unwise. Combat drip will bring 5 back, but that seems like a really, really big expenditure, and kind of leaves me hanging.
                        Okay, here's a list of all the antagonists from the corebook, all the Dragonblooded from What Fire has Wrought, and a selection of guys from Adversaries of the Righteous and Hundred Devil Night Parade. Bold are characters who either have, or can use essence to boost, their defenses above 5. Bold and underline are the ones that can do it above 8.

                        Corebook

                        2 Brigand
                        4 Battle Troop
                        4 Horse Archer
                        4 Grizzled Merc
                        5 Elite Bodyguard
                        5 Bride of Alhat
                        3 Siganese Deathspeaker
                        4 Monk
                        4 Assassin
                        2 Snakefolk Merchant
                        4 Jade Statue
                        4 Fog Shark
                        5 Mist the Revolutionary
                        2 Zombie
                        4 Hungry Ghost
                        3 Honoured Ancestor
                        4 War Ghost
                        5 Mortwight
                        4 Bonesider
                        6 Nephwrack
                        5 Disease Spirit
                        4 Dog of the Unbroken Earth
                        4 Field Guardian
                        4 Storm Mother
                        6 Alhat, God of Southern War and Cattle
                        6 Garda Bird

                        5 Greenmaw
                        4 Tidemere
                        3 Vaktri
                        7 Fakharu, Censor of the West
                        5 Agata
                        4 Blood Ape
                        4 Neomah
                        6 Aluva Keeper of the Forge of Night
                        7 Octavian, the Living Tower, QUarter Prince of Hell

                        5 Sigareth, the Player of Games
                        7 Fair Folk Cataphract
                        5 Fair Folk Lorelei
                        5 Hobgoblin
                        5 Silverwight
                        5 Buck-Ogre
                        5 Manticore
                        4-6 Young Dynast
                        5-7 Air Monk
                        6-9 Earth monk
                        6-9 Fire Monk

                        5-7 Earth General
                        4-8 Lunar Warlord
                        4-8 Lunar Trickster
                        6 Sidereal Assassin
                        6-11 Deathknight
                        4-7 Liminal Ghosthunter
                        4-7 Exigent Exalt

                        3 Angler Lizard
                        4 Armored Terror
                        3 Bear
                        3 Benthic Knifetooth
                        5 Boar Tusk Crocodile
                        3 Bunyip
                        4 Claw Strider
                        3 Death Moa
                        4 Wolf
                        4 Eagle
                        4 Emperor Sloth
                        4 Gorilla
                        4 Great Cat
                        3 Hellboar
                        3 Evasion
                        4 Ox-Dragon
                        2 Pestletail
                        4 Quoll-Lion
                        4 River Dragon
                        5 Siege Lizard
                        6 Tyrant Lizard


                        WFHW

                        4-6 Amon Mora House head for the Imperial Palace
                        6-9 Berit, General, Daughter of the Empress
                        6-9 Cathak Cainen, house matriarch for house Cathak

                        5-8 Cynis Cogen
                        4-6 Ledaal Kes, agent of the All Seeing Eye
                        5-7 Mnemon, Matriarch of House Mnemon, daughter of the Empress
                        4-6 Ragara Benoru, Leader of the Bloody Scythe rebellion, magistrate of the Empress
                        4-6 Sesus Nagezzer, The Slug, former soldier, information broker
                        6-9 Tepet Ejeva, The Roseblack, General of the Vermillion Legion



                        Adversaries and Devil Night Parade

                        5 Adeimantus, Custodian of Utopia
                        4 Isabet Maken, Master of Cauldron Valley
                        6 Iron Siaka, Chosen of Serenity
                        4 Bosocu, Prodigal Son of the Swamps
                        3 Fivefold Masks and Lies, Servent of Chaos
                        4 Afhonda, Lady of the Well
                        5 Ashana Ikatu, Master of Coiled Viper Dojo, First of Night's Talons
                        5-7 Ku Nenaveya, Captain of the Blue Wolves, Wielder fo Frozen Heart
                        4 Peremuz Rogue Homunculus
                        4 Ixer who Dreams for the Dead
                        5-8 Odara, Chosen of Ash, Captain of Kalaho Ahn
                        3-5 The Bloodthirsty, scourge of Wavecrest
                        5 Sentinal Fern
                        2 Ghostfisher
                        4 Eight Tailed Mole Rat
                        4 Barrow Hound
                        4 Dreamhawk
                        3 Haunt
                        3 Aughdeighe
                        6 Armored Kraken
                        4 Jungle Stalker


                        Sadly I don't have time to go through more of Adversaries and Devil Night Parade, but I can assure you that what's shown in the snippet I have there is representative of the spread. It might even be a bit weighted towards the high end.


                        With Dex 3, Brawl 5 and a specialty, your base attack pool is 13, with a full excellency it's 21, and with a stunt it's 23. That hits a defense of 5 literally 99% of the time. it hits a defense of 8 90% of the time, and a defense of 11 60% of the time. Which is also assuming that the thing you're facing is not suffering from any defense penalties due to environment, wound penalties, or onslaught penalties. Unlike 2e your Defense doesn't refresh from onslaught penalties until your turn comes around again, so as long as somebody else attacked the thing you're attacking, you'll be benefiting from onslaught.

                        Oh and likewise the things there that have like 3-5 as their best defense tend to have attack pools of 6-10. So your parry of 5 with Dex 3, Brawl 5, and a specialty, boosted by motes up to 9, that's going to be a 5% chance for somebody with a dicepool of 10 to hit you with.



                        Now, some of this will depend on what your ST and the rest of your group is doing. I've talked to somebody who was in a DB game and the only thing they ever rolled Join Battle against was high powered celestial exalted. If that's what you're doing this huge list doesn't mean much. If you're fighting anything close to an average spread of enemies though your statline will crush the opposition, and the only things you'll even remotely struggle against are people like a directional war god, or a literal mile high behemoth that can crush cities with a single footstep.
                        Last edited by DrLoveMonkey; 09-16-2020, 05:59 PM.

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                        • That's sort of why I'm asking. I want to be able to wrestle an Earth Immaculate, with at least a good chance of success. I don't need to be able tell Ahlat 'stop hitting yourself'.

                          If the expectation is that I'm supposed to be throwing out 8-10 motes on every attack, and then again on my control roll (and maybe to get my parry higher than 5, so I can be in bold on your list) that changes things significantly. But I'm under the impression that I'll need a round or two of withering attacks to be able to land that decisive grapple Gambit. And I'll be losing either motes or initiative (or both) every time I get attacked.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Scrollreader View Post
                            That's sort of why I'm asking. I want to be able to wrestle an Earth Immaculate, with at least a good chance of success. I don't need to be able tell Ahlat 'stop hitting yourself'.

                            If the expectation is that I'm supposed to be throwing out 8-10 motes on every attack, and then again on my control roll (and maybe to get my parry higher than 5, so I can be in bold on your list) that changes things significantly. But I'm under the impression that I'll need a round or two of withering attacks to be able to land that decisive grapple Gambit. And I'll be losing either motes or initiative (or both) every time I get attacked.
                            Mechanically, more Dex is still always best (it dictates so many things, like disengage) but 3e has made it less crucial to Exalted than it's ever previously been, especially for Solar Brawl.

                            Bear with me: Solars can get solid initiative off Join Battle rolls right out of the gate. You'll then be able to wither for initiative as part of a grapple (check out savaging attacks on page 201 of the Core book). With the kind of dice pool you're talking, against most foes one-on-one there's an excellent chance you'll establish control for several turns, savage once to build some more initiative and then slam them into the deck, forsaking remaining rounds of control to do a &^%$ tonne of damage (Solar Brawl is very, very good at damage).

                            aluminiumtrioxid etc have it right – with your default build you'll be a beast against most published things, and if you're fighting alongside other similar Solars you could slap down 'most anything in a straight fight. But you're Celestial Exalts, that's appropriate.

                            Your ST will likely need to wear you out (multiple fight scenes against several opponents, poison, environmental penalties, that kinda thing) to trouble you. More ability/attribute dots pushes your ceilings higher, but unless you are fighting, like, multiple high essence Deebs every single fight you're more likely to notice that they give you more stamina – you won't need to burn as many motes to beat medium opposition across multiple scenes.

                            The character you describe is dangerous, rest assured. Not min-max god-tier maybe, but deadly to published opponents. And he's interesting, which is the most important thing...
                            Last edited by Moss Reynholm; 09-16-2020, 05:40 PM.

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                            • The grapple initiative roll is only difficulty 2 so with Vicious Lunge you pretty much can’t fail it. The only time you should be rolling Dexterity to hit is when you’re crashed and can’t grapple at all.

                              Unbreakable Grasp is essential, without it the Defense penalty while grappling basically means losing two rounds of control every time your opponent’s turn comes up.

                              Per the sidebar on page 257, don’t forget to ask the ST how hard and far you can Nine Aeons Crashing Wave Throw someone and whether your powerlifting Charms substitute for Dragon Coil Technique if you want to suplex a train.
                              Last edited by Sith_Happens; 09-16-2020, 05:27 PM.

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                              • Based on a dev comment (http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...31#post1182631) Octavian should also be on the boostable to >8 list. Even without that he has parry 7
                                I'd also note that Fakharu's Flowing Body Dispersal, while not technically booting his defense, does functionally boost his defense by an average of 1 per 5 dice rolled, arguable putting him in the 8+ range, at least against any attack capable of hitting him at all.
                                Alveua should be bold.

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