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Evocations for Manses - A Gate of Babylon idea

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  • Evocations for Manses - A Gate of Babylon idea

    Is it possible or at least feasible to have evocations for Manses? The thought came to me while I was trying to brainstorm up an Elder Solar Gilgamesh along with his iconic Gate of Babylon. And the idea occurred, what if his GoB is a complex treasury in this setting too, like a NA Solar Manse?

    My idea roughly is this;
    1. Single Portal - this would allow him to open a portal to his treasury and pull forth one weapon or item of his choosing, instantly attuning it if needed.
    2. Artillery portal - this would be the kind of portal that fires a weapon from it, as either a thrown or archery attack.
    3. Large portal - this power would let him draw out larger things, like an airship.
    4. Multiple artillery portals - this evocation would allow him to produce multiple offensive portals at once, targeting attacks at as many or as few targets as he likes, up to a max equal to the number of portals.
    As you can see, the evocations revolve around his ability to pull or fire things from his treasury. He can send them back as he likes, which in game would be a reflexive action to send back any number of items that came from his Gate.

    As a part of the manse's function, it would be able to open its portals anywhere, not just in Creation. I figure that's worthy of the NA rating, instead of just a 5 dot manse.

    Notice there is no option for him or a person to enter his treasury. In keeping with the general conceit in Exalted to have no teleportation effects, I chose not to say that he'd be able to do that. It helps that Fate has never shown him doing that either.

    Of course, it could just be a Directional Titan too. It wouldn't be outside the realm of possibility for Gilgamesh.

  • #2
    I think a 5 dotter would be sufficient. You could tie the effect to needing the manse's hearthstone or something.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Elfive View Post
      I think a 5 dotter would be sufficient. You could tie the effect to needing the manse's hearthstone or something.
      I do think Gil needed a special keysword to access his vault remotely.

      Though I think it was only really shown in Fate/Zero? I dunno, I never watched Fate/Zero.


      Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

      My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
        I do think Gil needed a special keysword to access his vault remotely.

        Though I think it was only really shown in Fate/Zero? I dunno, I never watched Fate/Zero.
        Nah that was when he was using Ea and really more of a thing he was doing for show.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
          I do think Gil needed a special keysword to access his vault remotely.

          Though I think it was only really shown in Fate/Zero? I dunno, I never watched Fate/Zero.
          It is a real key that locks and unlocks his treasury but Gil doesn't need it because he has innate control over his treasury, so when he uses it he is using it as a ceremonial prop but if someone else got their hands on it then it does actually act as a key.


          Anyway, I like the idea and it would definitely be a setting shaking rating n/a thing if you made it in Creation.


          Exalted Whose Name is Carved in Leaves of Jade

          Senator of the Greater Chamber

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Mizu View Post

            It is a real key that locks and unlocks his treasury but Gil doesn't need it because he has innate control over his treasury, so when he uses it he is using it as a ceremonial prop but if someone else got their hands on it then it does actually act as a key.


            Anyway, I like the idea and it would definitely be a setting shaking rating n/a thing if you made it in Creation.


            Perhaps attunement to Gil's Key of the King's Law and having the manse's heartstone set in it is what allows the manse to open its portals beyond Creation.

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            • #7
              I still don't get why y'all think being able to summon weapons from outside creation is a big enough deal to make the manse N/A. I mean you can probably manage something similar with charms. It's not that impressive an effect.

              But anyway, another way you could have it work is to have a manse effect that lets you summon the contents of it's armoury while on it's grounds. Then, since having a linked hearthstone socketed in an attuned artifact makes you count as being in the manse it came from, this would let you summon the weapons anywhere. Including outside of creation, because that's never been mentioned to be a restriction on the "you count as being in the manse" effect.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Elfive View Post
                I still don't get why y'all think being able to summon weapons from outside creation is a big enough deal to make the manse N/A. I mean you can probably manage something similar with charms. It's not that impressive an effect.

                But anyway, another way you could have it work is to have a manse effect that lets you summon the contents of it's armoury while on it's grounds. Then, since having a linked hearthstone socketed in an attuned artifact makes you count as being in the manse it came from, this would let you summon the weapons anywhere. Including outside of creation, because that's never been mentioned to be a restriction on the "you count as being in the manse" effect.
                It's not the summoning of weapons by itself. Are you familiar with Fate's Gilgamesh and his Gate of Babylon? Have a demonstration.



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                • #9
                  Yeah, I know Fate.

                  Still think a 5 dot manse and maybe a linked 5 dot daiklave to control it would be sufficient. That's 10 whole dots of merit.

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                  • #10
                    A five-dot manse should really be enough, since that means you get a Hearthstone with the potential for Evocations. They just need to be slightly more extensive than is usual for Hearthstone Evocations, comparable to perhaps a three-dot Artifact.

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                    • #11
                      I see three issues with the concept.

                      The thing that is the source of inspiration does not seem to have the significance that this level of power would ascribe to it. Like, give it whatever kind of magibabble you want*, it still amounts to a fancy projectile weapon with some grapple functions. It operates at the personal level to a purpose no more sophisticated than killing folks. Basing the dot level on the supposed magic of how it gets the ammo to you... well it just seems like giving oneself a lot more work for really minimal returns. I feel as though necessary input should be based more on practical output, rather than figuring out the needs of the engine.

                      If this was actually translated into Exalted terms in the form of "every one of those spears, blades and chains is an actual Artifact with its own Evocations", then sure, access to that kind of power would approximate N/A level... except where most of the heavy lifting of that isn't really being done by the manse, but by the things it gives access to. And freeform (cheap?) access to lots of Artifact weapons at all times ultimately sounds... overpowered, but not in an interesting way. Not to mention also requiring a tonne of overhead before you get a return on the initial investment. "Finally, after all the resources I put into making it, I finally have this N/A manse to allow me to access the unlimited blade works... just as soon as the Storyteller is done writing up more than, like, six of them."

                      And I personally think that applications for manses that can be done without actually being in the manse kind of cheapens the significance of a magical building, but that's pretty minor in comparison.

                      * A thing that can be done, by the by, see the 3-dot chain weapon made out of a behemoth that defied the strength of many Exalted.


                      I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                      Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                        I see three issues with the concept.

                        The thing that is the source of inspiration does not seem to have the significance that this level of power would ascribe to it. Like, give it whatever kind of magibabble you want*, it still amounts to a fancy projectile weapon with some grapple functions. It operates at the personal level to a purpose no more sophisticated than killing folks. Basing the dot level on the supposed magic of how it gets the ammo to you... well it just seems like giving oneself a lot more work for really minimal returns. I feel as though necessary input should be based more on practical output, rather than figuring out the needs of the engine.

                        If this was actually translated into Exalted terms in the form of "every one of those spears, blades and chains is an actual Artifact with its own Evocations", then sure, access to that kind of power would approximate N/A level... except where most of the heavy lifting of that isn't really being done by the manse, but by the things it gives access to. And freeform (cheap?) access to lots of Artifact weapons at all times ultimately sounds... overpowered, but not in an interesting way. Not to mention also requiring a tonne of overhead before you get a return on the initial investment. "Finally, after all the resources I put into making it, I finally have this N/A manse to allow me to access the unlimited blade works... just as soon as the Storyteller is done writing up more than, like, six of them."

                        And I personally think that applications for manses that can be done without actually being in the manse kind of cheapens the significance of a magical building, but that's pretty minor in comparison.

                        * A thing that can be done, by the by, see the 3-dot chain weapon made out of a behemoth that defied the strength of many Exalted.
                        The concept wasn't all encompassing with every detail hammered out. It was, in fact, solely about the method of accessing and using the contents of the Gate and how that might be done in mechanical terms.

                        As for the contents being artifact grade, yeah they would be. I have thought about how that might be done, but it's difficult to do if artifacts are meant to be unique as 3E holds. Holding true to the source, the contents of the Gate would be a vast selection of artifacts collected by the owner(or previous owner, if this is meant to end up in player hands), themselves ranging from minor 1 dot artifacts to other NA level artifacts. It would need some form of autonomy though, if the manse was meant to continue collecting artifacts and other worthy things as time passed as Gil's Gate does in Fate.

                        And those chains would be one of the NA level artifacts. Enkidu, the Chains of Heaven. The more divine an entity is, the more bound they are(penalty equal to their own Essence?). Spirits, including ghosts, could be bound while immaterial, Exalts couldn't use their magic to escape(like Solar Larceny charms or Lunar shapeshifting), could bind anything of any size(behemoths, Primordials, etc), and other mighty effects.

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                        • #13
                          The idea of representing Gilgamesh's Vault of Babylon with a Greater Manse makes sense, since it makes sense for such a manse's Greater Hearthstone to be required to support the Evocations of summoning weapons, and then for summoning weapons as projectile attacks, grappling attacks, or parrying defenses.

                          But the manse itself would have powers beyond the Hearthstone it produces, and it might be that none of them are accessible outside of the manse.

                          The artifacts contained within the manse are not the manse itself.

                          Still, even without ever spending any part of the story inside the manse, it still offers an important benefit beyond producing the Hearthstone. The manse is, after all, a Vault. So it's not merely a place to store artifacts; it is an extremely secure place to store artifacts, such that Gilgamesh could travel all over Creation without worrying about someone stealing his treasures when he's not using them.


                          So, there are three key components to this concept.

                          1) The Artifacts. Gilgamesh could do the projectiles and defenses with mundane weapons. So it is significant that besides that, Gilgamesh could use any of those artifacts for their actual intended purpose when he needs something more complicated than a makeshift javelin.

                          2) The Vault, which is a secure place to store thousands of artifacts, and perhaps devotes all of its energies towards that purpose alone.

                          3) The Hearthstone which allows for Gilgamesh to access any of his artifacts anywhere in the world, and which alternatively allows him to use anything in his vault as a projectile.
                          Last edited by Sunder the Gold; 05-17-2020, 08:37 PM.


                          Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

                          My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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                          • #14
                            I did something like this for a player back in 2nd edition. He had watched the Fate Stay Night series and wanted to have a Gilgamesh-type character. I had set it up as an artifact key (though I think a hearthstone manse would work well enough).

                            We ended up working out a system he used for his character. The way it worked was, the key was linked to a Vault and he could summon up any artifact contained inside. Further, it allowed him to bypass the typical attunement Essence cost, though there was a limit (I believe 1/2 of the player's permanent Essence rounded down) to how many such artifacts the player could have summoned and equipped "for free." The other power of the Vault was that it contained an effectively infinite number of "generic" artifact weapons (Essence-shadow weapons) the player could summon up or shoot out as necessary.

                            For these "generic" weapons, I took the base stats for artifact weapons and then wrote up around 20 different tags and then the player would summon up a weapon and pick one of the tags to put on it. So for example, if the player wanted to whip out a spear they would take the stats for a spear and then put a "Green Jade Poison" tag on it to represent a Green Jade weapon with the ability to inflict poison or they could get a spear with the "Starmetal Demon Slaying" tag which would mean the spear they grabbed was a Starmetal weapon with a small bonus when being used against demons.

                            For the most part, the bonus tags weren't all that impressive and the weapons summoned up were all firmly around the level of a 3 dot artifact and just had a couple of bonus dice or a very minor effect added on. Ultimately it was more so that the player could feel like he had a really versatile toolbox of weapons, even if they weren't super effective. Further, I allowed the player to summon up an exquisite version of most any mundane object (a jar, a wagon, a chair) though with the drawback that such objects looked incredibly ornate and fabulous and anybody who saw them would recognize that they were the pinnacle of craftsmanship.

                            I also allowed the player to make an attack with these Essence-shadow weapons by firing them out like a volley of arrows (using Perception + Archery or Perception + Thrown and the player could use Charms to increase their power as if they were a weapon attack). The player could also go for a massive volley which would lead to area-effect style damage similar to Death of Obsidian Butterflies.

                            In game the way we explained the story behind the Artifact Vault was, back during the First Age the Vault was owned by a Solar (the player character's prior incarnation) who had collected and stored a vast amount of artifacts inside. However, the Vault ended up being pillaged during the Usurpation and almost all of the artifacts were looted out. The "generic artifacts" the player summoned were basically the Essence-shadows of the artifacts that had once been housed inside. The player could summon up those Essence-shadows and use them, but they possessed only a fraction of the power that the original artifacts had held. This then gave the player's character the goal of travelling across Creation searching for the artifacts that had been "liberated" from his prior incarnation's Vault during the Usurpation in order to get them back in the Vault.

                            Not sure how I'd do this in 3rd edition. I like the idea of it being an actual Manse, though with the more generic weapon options (light, medium, heavy) I feel like I'd need to create a much more robust tag system to make the Essence-shadow weapons feel more distinct and appealing.
                            Last edited by AnubisXy; 05-17-2020, 09:30 PM.

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                            • #15
                              Many good ideas here.

                              Anyone ever given any thought to Gilgamesh himself? In light of his clairvoyance and his purpose to be a judge of humanity, I think he'd have been a Lore Supernal of the Zenith caste. Possibly Twilight, given he did build his treasury himself and in FGO we see him build and control an entire city's worth of essence cannon equivalents. But that could just mean he took the Crafting trifecta as favored and built up the power later.

                              Enkidu would obviously be his Lunar mate. Can Lunars be made of clay and turn into chains? He did basically yoink Shamhat's form, after all.

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