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Jay Dizzle Whinges About Triple Attack Technique

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  • Jay Dizzle Whinges About Triple Attack Technique

    I don't expect this to be a long thread, but I really don't want to derail some else's thread.

    How does it replace the damage of Double Attack Technique? I was sure it added... because replacing... sucks. (Corebook, page 462 if anyone needs a reminder of the Charm's text.)

    Say you are facing Parry 5 with an Onslaught negator and roll 15 successes.

    Without Charms, that's a flat +10 damage.

    Or, with three Charms and Dexterity 5, you can trade 6i for 6 Charge, and spend 3m for +11 damage. (Supernal)

    That is not a good trade.

    Heck, forget Onslaught negation and it's 6i 3m for +6 damage, conditional on rolling at least 12 successes on an attack. On an Essence 3 Charm. With two prereqs.

    "Ok, JD, but..."

    No "but"! A normal Battle-Ready Soldier has Parry 4. With either Willpower or a level 1 Stunt, that's 5. A HOUSE CAT has Evasion 3: with Willpower and a Stunt that's 5.

    "You must spend 3m, 6i and roll at least 12 successes, on a character with literally peak-human agility, to get +6 damage against a house cat. (+3 damage if you are not a real Exalt.) On an Essence 3 Charm."

    If your Dexterity is merely "OUTSTANDING" (instead of "the apex of human potential"), then we're talking +4 damage (+1 for Terrrstrials). A character built like Volfer, the signature Dawn, would be sitting on +3 damage (breaking even with a flat 3m for +0 damage on a Terrestrial).

    And it's a Simple Charm.

    I had previously thought Steel Devil Style was much maligned for no good reason. But this SUCKS.

    (Mastery helps. I'd be inclined to houserule the Mastery effect into the normal effect of the Charm.)
    Last edited by JohnDoe244; 06-20-2020, 06:59 AM.


    Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

  • #2
    It might be okay if you weren't giving up those extra successes for the extra attacks. That damage add wouldn't be so bad then I'd think, but yeah as it is that's pretty bad. I always thought it was an add too.

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    • #3
      Steel Devil is an ill-designed Style mocked as being "win more" because it doesn't help you winning if you're not already dominating, but I'd go one step further and say Steel Devil is "win about the same, but lose tons of XP" because it just is not a valid option. Which is sad, because flavor-wise it is an awesome style. It just doesn't really work.

      You are right. It does suck. Triple Attack Technique is just the sucky cherry on top of a Suck Sundae.

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      • #4
        Honestly, it's the loss of successes that bothers me. 12 successes lost against parry 5 to gain 12 damage( without an increase in the charge capacity from the form) at essence 5 is just frakkin terrible now that I examine it further.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Cheshire Cat View Post
          Steel Devil is an ill-designed Style mocked as being "win more" because it doesn't help you winning if you're not already dominating, but I'd go one step further and say Steel Devil is "win about the same, but lose tons of XP" because it just is not a valid option. Which is sad, because flavor-wise it is an awesome style. It just doesn't really work.

          You are right. It does suck. Triple Attack Technique is just the sucky cherry on top of a Suck Sundae.
          TAT's a dead end charm, though, no? I know that's not a defence of the charm itself, but you don't have to take it in order to access any of the rest of the style.

          It does seem though that Dual-Slaying Stance/Whirling Guillotine Dance are miles above everything else in the tree. Having looked again though I was struck by how wp intensive it is and how big a deal (relatively) the mastery bonus for Steel Devil Strike is as a result. It does at a glance also seem to be a style that nerfs Terrestrials especially hard, although the stuff going on in the Arena at the minute may say different.

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          • #6
            The kiss of death to me is this: Can I use an excellency against the 2nd and 3rd attack? What about reflexive onslaught negators? IF so, then any exalt so far can simply...nope the style's biggest gimmick.


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            • #7
              Originally posted by Epee102 View Post
              The kiss of death to me is this: Can I use an excellency against the 2nd and 3rd attack? What about reflexive onslaught negators? IF so, then any exalt so far can simply...nope the style's biggest gimmick.
              No you can't but you don't have to either. Let's take a deeb blademaster at parry 7.Full excellency + 1pt stunt is parry 11. Double attack requires 21 successes and triple attack 30...that's pretty nope.You can use onslaught negators, in which case it becomes 22 and 33
              Last edited by Arkayriel; 06-20-2020, 10:02 AM. Reason: Forgot something.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Moss Reynholm View Post
                TAT's a dead end charm, though, no? I know that's not a defence of the charm itself, but you don't have to take it in order to access any of the rest of the style.
                Double's not worth the loss of extra successes to damage either unless they've got a low defense.Triple's just and upgrade to double granting a little more damage and still very not worth it.It's basically double attack 2.0 with even more suck.
                Last edited by Arkayriel; 06-20-2020, 10:05 AM.

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                • #9
                  [QUOTE=JohnDoe244;n1397650
                  Heck, forget Onslaught negation and it's 6i 3m for +6 damage, conditional on rolling at least 12 successes on an attack. On an Essence 3 Charm. With two prereqs.
                  [/QUOTE]


                  I don't think that DAT costs the charge, so the 6i is a one time trade, which makes it a lot cheaper if you're going to attack multiple times.
                  On the other hand, the damage boost still isn't that great once you take into account losing extra successes, unless you've been stacking penalties beforehand.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by autXautY View Post


                    I don't think that DAT costs the charge, so the 6i is a one time trade, which makes it a lot cheaper if you're going to attack multiple times.
                    On the other hand, the damage boost still isn't that great once you take into account losing extra successes, unless you've been stacking penalties beforehand.
                    Yeah and while you're not going to be fighting parry 7 excellency using foes often, when you do the charm would put you into the negative. So it's only effective against those you'd crush normally as everyone has been saying. The defensive stuff is a lot better though DAT chains into Steel Devil Strike so there is that. A decisive in the same round can be helpful in dealing wounds to make an opponent manageable and it quickly let's you whip through weak enemies.

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                    • #11
                      Oh and I screwed up earlier. Dex+Charge would be 17 max damage without increasing capacity for form. So at that point against parry 5 with no onslaught negators it would net +5 damage at essence 5. Still not seeing the worth since filling up my charge at essence 5 means moving over a total of 12 initiative to charge and I'm trying to build initiative quickly to launch a massive attack. Still maybe with Steel Devil Strike...? So essence 1 supernal uses Naked Fang Draw to shift 6i off the bat and throws 16 dice with short daiklaves at a parry 5 enemy with pretty good soak...let's say 16( heavy artifact armor+5 sta). A full excelency + 1pt stunt is 28 dice and will just half that as successes for ease of use, so 14. We get 5 extra successes we can use and our damage with the daiklaves will be 13...so 18 + 8 from DAT so 26. 26 - 16 = 10. Not going to be a lot of withering damage gaine from DAT to hurt my opponent with Steel Devil Strike.

                      Oh and yeah, i know that it takes an essence user to wear artifact armor but plenty of critters have good soak and your toughest fights are likely going to be exalts. Parry 5 isn't too much to expext out of an exalt with a medium weapon. And I used an essence 1 character instead of 5 because I was checking to see how effective Steel Devil Strike might actually be with a character you might actually see. Few people get to tool around with essence 5 characters for long in most games I think.
                      Last edited by Arkayriel; 06-20-2020, 11:04 AM.

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                      • #12
                        I think what might kill it is that stunts and willpower are relatively even, stunts favouring PCs and willpower favouring NPCs, but since every point of defence forces the threshold up by 3 instead of 1 the NPC gets triple the benefit out of it.

                        The only way I can see to fix it is by saying that any defence boosters only apply to the initial attack, exactly as though you’d attacked three times.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by autXautY View Post


                          I don't think that DAT costs the charge, so the 6i is a one time trade, which makes it a lot cheaper if you're going to attack multiple times.
                          On the other hand, the damage boost still isn't that great once you take into account losing extra successes, unless you've been stacking penalties beforehand.
                          True you don't lose the Initiative. But you're also not spending it "on turn". You're shifting it out of your Join Battle, which can result in you going later.


                          Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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                          • #14
                            Okay, but a triple-attack sounds way stronger than a double attack and I think we all need to take that into account.


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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Dex Davican View Post
                              Okay, but a triple-attack sounds way stronger than a double attack and I think we all need to take that into account.
                              The charm needs a name at least 50% cooler to be worth the expenditure of xp.

                              Seriously, my players liked a lot to fight one steel devil stylist. But they don't know a lot about the mechanics of the charms in general. The disarm attack is cool tou..

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