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  • #16
    Originally posted by Dragonmystic View Post


    What a shocker me, as a person, is posting my opinion. It's almost as if that's the dictionary definition of a forum or something.
    Out of curiosity, are you intending to take a look at Essence at all?

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    • #17
      Originally posted by limaxophobiac View Post

      Pretty much the only real reason you've given for starting over is that you don't like the way exalted currently works, pointing out thats a terrible reason reboot a gameline is an adequate response.
      So the entire point of "This line has a glacial development speed of dubious quality material" is just glossed over there? I think I've made it abundantly clear that I think the problems with Exalted run core deep, and that is contributing to its both real slow development speed.

      As well, I should mention that the lack of certain key materials makes the absence of material felt more harshly. For instance, I consider the game incomplete without the "core 5" Exaltations--Solars, Lunars, Sidereals, Dragonbloods, and Abyssals. You may disagree, but for mixed party groups and the story at large it feels needed to at least flesh out the world, let alone play. As well, Sorcery and Necromancy are not fleshed out at all, which will come out at "some day".

      I feel that this is a big enough problem--compounded with all the many many mechanical issues that there are in 3e, that the devs should just call it a loss, learn from the edition, and move on. And so I posted it.


      I don't appreciate your efforts to diminish my concerns and opinions. Please, there are other threads in this forum that I would kindly point you towards instead.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Moss Reynholm View Post

        Out of curiosity, are you intending to take a look at Essence at all?
        I'm keeping tabs on it. Obviously I can't truly gauge it until its released, but from what I can gather I think they're falling into the same traps 3e did, while just going on a sideways of complexity.

        Plus the fact that it is a side, one-time book, rather than the main line concerns me. They can't possibly fit all of Exalted into one book without sacrificing way too much. I'm not liking the idea of just generic "close combat" and "ranged combat" for example.

        Maybe it'll be good? I don't know yet. But even if it is we still have to deal with the main line too and its fate.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Dragonmystic View Post
          In my mind Exalted 3rd Edition has already failed.

          It's a zombie product.
          If you don't like it, that's fair enough. But describing it as "already failed" is not particularly accurate, from a sales perspective. Kickstarters for Exalted products consistently rank among the top performing for Onyx Path products (and that's discounting the core book Kickstarter which was, as far as I can tell, the most successful Kickstarter Onyx Path has done, bar none). And Exalted products are rated highly in sales on most websites I can find that publish such stats. Drivethrurpg, for instance, has the Exalted corebook ranked within its top 100 best selling products on the site.

          So, to make a case that Exalted 3e is something that Onyx Path should abandon, I think you're going to have to make more substantial arguments. "I don't like the pace of the release schedule" is probably not going to convince them. No edition will satisfy every fan, that's just inevitable, so more than just the word of one fan is necessary to convince them to change course.

          Originally posted by Dragonmystic View Post

          I don't appreciate your efforts to diminish my concerns and opinions. Please, there are other threads in this forum that I would kindly point you towards instead.
          If your central argument was "I don't like Ex3, here's why", you might have a point. But your argument, stated in your thread title, and explained further in your post, seems to be that "Exalted's current edition should be discarded and a new one begun". People are allowed to dispute that point. In fact, if you more or less like Exalted 3e (as I do, for instance), it makes sense to openly dispute the point, because we want to avoid letting silence make it seem like there's some kind of support for your position.

          And it's not diminishing your concerns to disagree with you. That's just how disagreement and discussion work. You're not satisfied with the development cycle of Ex3. That's fine, that's a perfectly okay opinion to hold. But it's not a universal opinion, and someone saying "I disagree, I'm satisfied with the pace, here's why" is not dismissing your opinion.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post

            [...]

            If your central argument was "I don't like Ex3, here's why", you might have a point. But your argument, stated in your thread title, and explained further in your post, seems to be that "Exalted's current edition should be discarded and a new one begun". People are allowed to dispute that point. In fact, if you more or less like Exalted 3e (as I do, for instance), it makes sense to openly dispute the point, because we want to avoid letting silence make it seem like there's some kind of support for your position

            [...]
            Okay. We cannot have another discussion about how just terrible 3e's mechanics are. We're not turning this thread into that. I'm mentioning the word "Craft" and somewhere something explodes in a ball of rage and angry conflict that I just don't want to deal with.

            For me, and from all my personal observations, any newcomer who looks at Exalted's rules goes "[EXPLITIVE] NO! Never in a million years!" and that is a problem. As far as my non-statistical, non-omnipotent eyes can see, Exalted is coasting on people who super duper love it no matter how terrible it is.

            The people who don't have all left the forums and gone to other games. I'm just here out of morbid curiosity/fond remembrance.


            Combine that with it's absolutely glacial release schedule means that--for personal impact--3e started when I was in college, and will only hit what I consider its "playable peak" when I'm 40.

            And that is just not sustainable.


            Exalted needs to change. It needs to be faster, it needs to be better, and I don't see how it will do that without a new edition. Essence is a bandage on a sinking ship, a mask on a zombie line.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Dragonmystic View Post
              Exalted needs to change. It needs to be faster, it needs to be better, and I don't see how it will do that without a new edition. Essence is a bandage on a sinking ship, a mask on a zombie line.
              Why do you assume that a new edition would speed up the development process?


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              • #22
                Originally posted by Dragonmystic View Post


                And that is just not sustainable.

                I can sympathize with a sense of anxiety over these things, but I feel as though you're catastrophizing about a lot of unknowable details* (particularly the stated concern over things like the prospect of suddenly needing entirely new developers).

                But I also feel as though your proposed solutions are the kind that is at once a lot more complicated than you appreciate and would ultimately end up with something that has lost a lot of the charms of the familiar games. It certainly doesn't strike me as something well suited to a wide ranging appeal (to the extent that is a desirable thing to shoot for in the first place).

                I also feel as though you're not really considering the deeper systemic issues about why the game is being developed as it is. I myself don't look over at the Chronicles of Darkness so much anymore, but I get the strong impression that nothing under Onyx Path is really being developed with any meaningful increase of speed over Exalted, and I find that corroborated by statements made by other people. The resources, the market to provide them, for this company at least they just don't really exist anymore. I've no frame of reference to determine if they do for any other games and companies.

                You're concerned over sustainability, but it seems to me that you refer more to a pursuit of continuous growth, which is ultimately the opposite of that, and seems to not really be as viable in the current market.

                As far as I can see, the best that can be hoped for is that the current development management, which is dividing labour between a few more times to try and bring up a few products simultaneously, might provide a model for the future that can increase output. Essence may be able to bring some more attention, excitement and capital back to provide a bit more to fund a few extra writers. There's the possibility of broadening it sufficiently to improve the pace a bit.

                But I think the degree to which you want it is not possible. I wouldn't say there's nothing to be gained by just scrapping and starting over, but there's definitely a lot to lose.

                * Something that I think would not be helped by developing a terminology for yourself about the fate of the game. "A zombie line"? What is your contemporary image for a living, breathing one?


                I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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                • #23
                  A new edition with the main 5 entire splats in the core, no less, and radical revamps. That'd be a good long stretch of... basically no Exalted content, as opposed to Exalted content whose pace and material is enjoyed by enough of the fanbase that Kickstarters in the past few years do well.

                  Anyone who wants a 4e nowish as opposed to a long time from now... may just have to make it themselves. Maybe mine Essence when it comes out, since it'll have the main 5 and more.


                  Abyssals: Whom Death Has Called, a PEACH-as-heck attempt to make an Abyssal 3E holdover.

                  Where I try to make Artifacts. When I finish them I'll probably post them in the Artifact Workshop thread so people can help me hammer them into shape.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Beans View Post
                    A new edition with the main 5 entire splats in the core, no less, and radical revamps. That'd be a good long stretch of... basically no Exalted content, as opposed to Exalted content whose pace and material is enjoyed by enough of the fanbase that Kickstarters in the past few years do well.

                    Anyone who wants a 4e nowish as opposed to a long time from now... may just have to make it themselves. Maybe mine Essence when it comes out, since it'll have the main 5 and more.
                    I have found this topic quite interesting to me because, as someone who discovered Exalted with 3e, mainly through Solars and DB, I'm totally disconnected from people (that I assume discovered Exalted with almost complete content from 1e or 2e) that consider Sidereals, Abyssals, Infernals, Alchemicals totally core to the Exalted experience, which I totally not relate to.

                    Just my opinion on a matter I often see raised in the forum.

                    Also, yes in an ideal world I'd like a new Edition of Exalted with perfect streamlined content and support with new splats every 6 months, etc ... so theorically I understand and support your idea, but I don't think it'll go anywhere to restart everything considering materials for Exalted 3e is starting to get interesting with the Lunar release, Essence, the Crucible of Legends for the ST, etc ...


                    My homebrew (Leave comments if you want to help improve) : A quick recap of all the pools and stats for Quick Exalted 3E characters

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                    • #25
                      Development of Exalted products still needs approval from Paradox, doesn't it?


                      I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                      Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                        Development of Exalted products still needs approval from Paradox, doesn't it?
                        That’s correct.


                        Hey, check out my first original RPG, Post-Mortem, here: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/307131/PostMortem

                        Or read my Exalted novella The Silence of Our Ancestors here: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...looded-Novella

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                        • #27
                          I should find it curious for an undead game line to still receive approvals, particularly for something as unusual as Exalted Essence.

                          The description of it as something barely chugging along on fumes breathed into it by an (implicitly small) exceptionally devoted fanbase would seem to presume that final say over the management of the gameline is actually in the hands of... I would presume Rich Thomas, at the highest? Somebody with a personal investment in the game at least, rather than a business. I don't know offhand the details of the particulars of the licensing agreement, whether or not Paradox actually possesses the power to take more direct control if sufficiently dissatisfied. I do know that when there were issues with Vampire: the Masquerade Fifth Edition, there was a significant reconstitution of how that was going to be developed and published moving forwards.

                          What I'm getting at here is that there is a basis to consider that the game is selling satisfactorily enough that the people ultimately in charge of it are confident in its future for now. That the basis for assuming that the game is basically dead or doomed is not taking numerous things into account.

                          Certainly I would not assume that anything to do with this forum is a deep reflection on the game's status.


                          I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                          Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                            I should find it curious for an undead game line to still receive approvals, particularly for something as unusual as Exalted Essence.

                            The description of it as something barely chugging along on fumes breathed into it by an (implicitly small) exceptionally devoted fanbase would seem to presume that final say over the management of the gameline is actually in the hands of... I would presume Rich Thomas, at the highest? Somebody with a personal investment in the game at least, rather than a business. I don't know offhand the details of the particulars of the licensing agreement, whether or not Paradox actually possesses the power to take more direct control if sufficiently dissatisfied. I do know that when there were issues with Vampire: the Masquerade Fifth Edition, there was a significant reconstitution of how that was going to be developed and published moving forwards.

                            What I'm getting at here is that there is a basis to consider that the game is selling satisfactorily enough that the people ultimately in charge of it are confident in its future for now. That the basis for assuming that the game is basically dead or doomed is not taking numerous things into account.

                            Certainly I would not assume that anything to do with this forum is a deep reflection on the game's status.
                            there's a lot of confounding factors there
                            Last edited by Dragonmystic; 06-20-2020, 08:29 PM.

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                            • #29
                              Yeah, you're allowed to express your opinion on a public forum.

                              And other people are allowed to come in here and express their opinions. Including, but not limited to:

                              "I disagree"

                              "What you're saying makes no sense"

                              "It's illogical to assume that Ex3's lifespan will be the same number of years as the previous Editions"

                              "I actually LIKE the mechanics of Ex3, and a lot of people do, and it's actually kind of presumptuous to borderline demand that the entire Edition be scrapped early and a new Edition be made just because you think it should be"


                              Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

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                              • #30
                                I'm remembering why I never come here and am akways regretful when I do.

                                See ya, later
                                Last edited by Dragonmystic; 06-20-2020, 08:43 PM.

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