Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

How good is Exalted at exploring the consequences of success?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Yeah what Lioness said.
    It's Exalted's coherent world and spelled-out consequences in-setting that basically teach you examples of how shit might go sideways as you read setting history.
    That is what gets me about Exalted.
    It's so stuffed with references to brewing conflict, that it is very obvious to an ST (and many players) where to apply pressure to make things get interesting. And you'll have a good idea of how they'll get interesting. What other games have as word count on bestiarys, Exalted has on instable kingdoms and provinces, and it shows in the way the game's played. And I like it.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Epitome View Post
      I took this as OP saying that "the consequences of victory" will woosh right over players/DMs' heads if their worldview is one where there should be none.
      This is accurate to my convictions.


      When I was a small boy, I had a brother barely smaller than myself. Naturally, we fought all of the time, and much of it was not playful.

      Early on, I learned that it hurt less for me to punch my brother than I hurt from my brother punching me. So if my brother punched me, it seemed worthwhile to punch him back, because the pain I inflicted on myself seemed like nothing compared to the pain he inflicted on me, and I wanted to even the scales.

      But one day I realized how self-centered that was. I finally realized that the pain I felt from punching my brother was nothing compared to the pain he felt when I punched him. I realized that he was still thinking the way I thought, in minimizing his conception of my pain to just what he felt from punching me.

      On that day, I learned that once the cycle of revenge began, it would never stop until we decided that we wanted peace more than revenge. It would need to start with one of us, regardless of who threw the first punch.

      I realized I would never be able to stop the conflict by using more force. Escalating the conflict would result in worse consequences, both from outside factors (parents getting involved) and from inspiring greater hatred and vengefulness in my brother.

      I didn't need to let my brother have a free shot; I could defend myself, limit the pain he caused me, the pain he could not feel, while letting him feel he had inflicted sufficient force. And if he then stopped, peace could be restored as long as I didn't counterattack again.

      But however I did it, I thenceforward tried to de-escalate every hostile fight we had, because I had learned hurting my brother would never be worth it.

      And if I felt that my brother had absolutely no right to come after me, or that self-defense would not suffice, or that he simply would not stop, I would appeal to The Law. That is to say, our parents.

      As we had good parents, they never decided that the resolution to my brother punching me unprovoked should be to allow me a free shot at him. They never allowed the violence to continue.


      Revenge always begets more revenge. This is a law of human nature that can be missed and ignored and hated and denied, but that cannot be avoided. Humans will never lose their free will, no matter how much you want them to, no matter how much you decide they don't deserve it.

      Slave-owners decided their slaves didn't deserve free-will. Nazis decided that Jews didn't deserve free-will.

      Anyone who falls into the trap of dehumanizing anyone else, is someone who ignores reality.
      Last edited by Sunder the Gold; 07-19-2020, 02:31 PM.


      Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

      My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

      Comment


      • #18
        I found that inspiring on multiple levels, Sunder the Gold.

        Thank you for sharing that.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Daredevil View Post
          I found that inspiring on multiple levels, Sunder the Gold.

          Thank you for sharing that.
          Allow me to share more.

          There is a time and place to escalate violence. Obviously, a petty squabble with one's brother is neither.

          A sibling quarrel is a "civil" dispute. That is to say, a conflict between two parties sharing the same language, culture, and laws.

          To maintain society, one attempts de-escalation. If that fails, one seeks justice through the shared system of law.


          Escalation of force is the last resort, when no other forms of conflict resolution are available.

          "A riot is the language of the unheard".

          "...when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce [the people] under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."


          But not all violence is equal. There is a difference between defensive violence and aggressive violence.

          Defensive violence seeks to establish and enforce your boundaries against aggressive violence. Aggressive violence seeks to violate and deny the boundaries of others.


          Defensive violence teaches others to respect you. This is fear, but specifically the fear of losing more than one gains from messing with you. A poison dart frog's toxic warning color. The rattlesnake warning you, "Do not tread on me!" This is a merely cautionary fear that informs rational, reasonable decision-making.

          Respect is compatible with trust, because two people can trust each other to respect the other's boundaries. This is true peace.


          Aggressive violence teaches others to dread you. This is fear, but specifically the fear that you would slit someone's throat in the middle of the night for shits and giggles. You seek to horrify others with your actions, so that you can rule others through terror and the threat of violence. Rather than a fear that informs reason, you inspire a fear that robs people of their reason. Irrational people are easier to control.

          Such fear is the enemy of trust. These conditions are incompatible; mutually exclusive. If you dread someone, you expect them to violate your boundaries. You can maintain only a false peace by attempting to appease the enemy, as Europe attempted to appease the Nazis.


          Appeasement never buys peace; only time. Unless you need that time to prepare for war, appeasement is worse than useless, because it can cost you the allies and the resources that might have helped you win the war. "First they came for the Jews..."

          Against an aggressor, the only wise option is to recognize that they consider themselves at war with you even if they don't officially declare or admit it, so the only thing you can do is declare a state of war and escalate the conflict until your enemy ceases to threaten you.

          .
          Last edited by Sunder the Gold; 07-19-2020, 08:16 PM.


          Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

          My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Lioness View Post
            It's coming more to the forefront this edition.

            Previously the implementation of elders Exalted and especially the Deathlords, could trample the game's notions of empowerment and make your character feel like a low level adventurer who'll get stomped if they step out of line. With 3rd edition it's not just that these characters are generally weaker they're also more connected to the world around them, you're not forced to explore what happens to Malahanka if you kill Raksi but you're more likely to care if it's a thriving city at the heart of her empire than if it's just the ruins of Sperimin.
            Originally posted by Lioness View Post
            I think the depth of the setting has its role to play in why people advocate for it.
            I’ve never needed a GM section to tell me that my players killing the people in charge could create a power vacuum resulting in a civil war. I’m much more appreciative of an official write-up that provides me with some ideas for how the society could break apart.
            Like if we take Gem as an example, the obvious pulp fantasy answer is a slave rebellion.
            If you want infighting among its noble houses 5 of them are defined in Scavenger Sons and fleshed out more in Compass: South.
            The Ex3 core name drops a bunch of kingdoms that Gem has imposed its influence upon who may wish to break free of it.

            Granted it’s not universal… as a counterpoint Paragon as-written is pretty bad, since in my experience Exalted PCs are way more likely to want to kill the Perfect than the Despot and there's so little support for what comes next beyond “Scarlet Whisper takes over… I guess?” as she’s the only other fleshed out NPC here, but in the grand scheme of the writing there's more gems than turds.
            This relates to why I hate the Lava-Lamp Wyld.

            Because there cannot be consequences in the Wyld. It's a non-place, completely lacking in meaning and pathos.

            It's like the ocean, but the ocean serves as a meaningful wasteland between habitable islands of consequence.


            Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

            My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
              This relates to why I hate the Lava-Lamp Wyld.

              Because there cannot be consequences in the Wyld. It's a non-place, completely lacking in meaning and pathos.

              It's like the ocean, but the ocean serves as a meaningful wasteland between habitable islands of consequence.
              I get what they were going for in Exalted: The Fair Folk from that first edition approach of treating each splat book as though it were its own game, that much as the fae view Creation's existence as a contamination of their realm as creatures of narrative they can't help but be drawn to it by the prospect of real stakes. Second Edition made the understandable decision of treating it all like one game system and sought to make the entire playable world accessible to everyone, but there doesn't seem to have been much reflection on what the wyld was now.


              Onyx Path Forum Moderator
              Please spare a thought for updating the Exalted wiki.

              Comment


              • #22
                The difficulty I have with the whole "exploring the consequences of successes" is that a lot of my players take a really long ass time to take a decision. I'd like it better if I could help them decide faster, if anyone got any useful tips ?


                My homebrew (Leave comments if you want to help improve) : A quick recap of all the pools and stats for Quick Exalted 3E characters

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Chausse View Post
                  The difficulty I have with the whole "exploring the consequences of successes" is that a lot of my players take a really long ass time to take a decision. I'd like it better if I could help them decide faster, if anyone got any useful tips ?
                  Originally posted by Dex Davican View Post
                  ...honestly, Virtues helped encourage my players to act decisively, even if it would be painful or come with negative consequences.
                  I wonder if that's why Exalted: Essence is bringing back Virtues, and adding more.

                  It may not be MECHANICALLY simpler, but it may justify its complexity by providing Training Wheels For Roleplaying.


                  Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

                  My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post

                    I wonder if that's why Exalted: Essence is bringing back Virtues, and adding more.

                    It may not be MECHANICALLY simpler, but it may justify its complexity by providing Training Wheels For Roleplaying.
                    I don't know how Virtues work, but I already encourage them to follow their Intimacies if they don't know what to do or can't decide. I think it also has to do with them looking for some kind of "miracle" solution where they will have all the benefits and lessen the drawbacks.


                    My homebrew (Leave comments if you want to help improve) : A quick recap of all the pools and stats for Quick Exalted 3E characters

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I’m also not sure how to run the consequences of success in a satisfying way. It’s either “here’s two horrible choices, you make the call” or “ah-ha, gotcha. Nice job breaking it, hero” and neither of those really feel like they work well for a game. I’m not really here to instruct my friends on life lessons or anything. Not to mention that with all the other stuff I’m expected to do as the ST trying to make and keep track of a world that’s as complex as real life is literally impossible. I think I need to see some actual plays or something to that effect to get an idea of how to work it.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
                        I’m also not sure how to run the consequences of success in a satisfying way. It’s either “here’s two horrible choices, you make the call” or “ah-ha, gotcha. Nice job breaking it, hero” and neither of those really feel like they work well for a game. I’m not really here to instruct my friends on life lessons or anything. Not to mention that with all the other stuff I’m expected to do as the ST trying to make and keep track of a world that’s as complex as real life is literally impossible. I think I need to see some actual plays or something to that effect to get an idea of how to work it.
                        I must say, I think one of the hardest part of the game is managing the impressive quantity of information Exalted gives you. There are so many things happening in Exalted, after my 2 years campaign I was a bit drown in my players questions because many things I just mentioned once had become part of the setting and there was narratively many things to track.

                        I also find it hard not to dwell too much on the "life lesson" thing-ey, so my go-to solution is to attack player with a different philosophy that I don't personally adhere with, and I try to consider both philosophy (the player one and my antagonist one) true until one of them mechanically succeeds at overwhelming the other.

                        Must say the options usually devolve into either the "Chose 1 between 2" or "You over made it", but I think it's fine. I think it's good as long as the player feels you don't distort what the player wanted to do in a way that feels unnatural. However, it's also complicated because I noticed that player that can't the cake and eat it too (I hate players saying "I try to do this but not so much so it doesn't feel like I'm really doing it") goes along poorly with this method.


                        My homebrew (Leave comments if you want to help improve) : A quick recap of all the pools and stats for Quick Exalted 3E characters

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          The ST I played under ran his games with a specific philosophy:

                          When faced with a dilemma, a great mortal is one who makes the best choice they can and lives with the consequences.
                          A great Exalt, on the other hand, is one who rejects the dilemma altogether and creates a better answer to the problem.


                          So to him the "consequences of victory" were what happens when you don't "think like an Exalt", and it was the job of the players at the table to be cunning/creative/resourceful enough to find a perfect solution to every problem.
                          Last edited by Epitome; 07-20-2020, 12:49 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Chausse View Post
                            The difficulty I have with the whole "exploring the consequences of successes" is that a lot of my players take a really long ass time to take a decision. I'd like it better if I could help them decide faster, if anyone got any useful tips ?
                            In 2E, I'd sometimes encourage my players to roll their Virtues whenever they were stuck, and interpret the character's priorities based on the rolled successes. It took some of the pressure off them to make the "right" decision. You can do something similar with Ex3 Intimacies, by rolling the Intimacy's associated bonus as a dice pool.

                            The other part of indecision was often their fear that their choice was going to make the game less fun for them going forward. In those cases, I'd talk with them about what outcomes would make the game less fun, what was vital to keep the game fun, and whether any of their choices would definitively affect those things. If they felt that I understood what they really wanted out of the game, and they understood the likely impact of their decisions, they felt more comfortable making a tough call.

                            Originally posted by Chausse View Post
                            I also find it hard not to dwell too much on the "life lesson" thing-ey, so my go-to solution is to attack player with a different philosophy that I don't personally adhere with, and I try to consider both philosophy (the player one and my antagonist one) true until one of them mechanically succeeds at overwhelming the other.
                            Yeah, I'd do something similar by presenting two competing philosophies in the form of two factions or individuals in conflict, so the players could decide if they wanted to support one side or the other, or declare them both wrong and advocate/enforce an outside perspective. Which, now that I think about it, was basically the KOTOR formula.

                            (Edit: If they'd been playing non-Solars I might have taken a different tack, but as Lawgivers I basically put them in Solomon's shoes and told them to judge the fates of dozens of babies.)


                            Hey, check out my first original RPG, Post-Mortem, here: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/307131/PostMortem

                            Or read my Exalted novella The Silence of Our Ancestors here: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...looded-Novella

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Here's another thing that bothers me about Exalted being about what happens when you win instead of if and how you win. I already talked about the system, and how Exalted combats go from like 45 minutes to 2 hours, and contrasted that to Godsend where you just say "We're fighting, therefore I win, now lets talk about what that means." and the actual fight takes literally less than 30 seconds, but discussing what happens takes much longer.

                              The other part of that is character creation, because here's a perfectly valid Dawn. Not a Dawn who's intentionally built to be bad, that would look very different, but one built in a pretty balanced way.


                              Okay so I want this Dawn to be charming as hell, he's like a troubadour-warrior. It's so frickin cool that Exalted lets me do that. So social primary, with 3 Charisma, 3 Manipulation and 5 Appearance. Hot damn. But, of course, he's mainly a warrior, so physical secondary, 3 in each, well rounded, and mental tertiary, with 3 perception, 2 intelligence and 2 wits.

                              Now for his abilities. He's got 5 melee because he's the best damn swordsman you'll see, so that's two bonus points used there. He's also got the best damn sanxian skills ever so also 5 in performance. Hell yeah. He's also no slouch with his hands, so 3 brawl. Then 2 on Athletics, 2 on Awareness, 3 on Dodge, 3 on resistance, 2 on medicine so he can bandage himself up, 2 on survival because he can survive in the woods just fine on his own. Then 3 on socialize and spending another bonus point to get 2 on presence.


                              Okay cool, now charms. I want to make sure that wherever he is, he's going to be able to get his daiklave. He can bust heads with his hands, but when he needs to get serious and simply win, he reaches for the sword. Call the Blade and Summoning the Loyal Steel. Then since I didn't take archery or thrown, I want to be able to smack people at range, I'll grab both Iron Raptor and Sandstorm Wind Attack, which also requires Excellent Strike. I'm also going to grab One Weapon, Two Blows, Fire and Stones Strike, Dipping Swallow Defense and Solar Counterattack. Now, that's almost 2/3 of my starting charms in just one of my almost dozen abilities, so let's spread the love. Masterful Performance Exercise, Perfect Harmony Technique, and Mood-Inducing Music should make him quite the player. I'm also going to grab Thunderclap Rush Attack, Ferocious Jab, and 8bp to grab a pair of ox-bodies because those are good.


                              Okay then, almost done. Quickly I'll do specialties, one in sanxians, one melee one while outnumbered, one melee one for gladiatorial fights, one medicine one for self medicine, and one survival one for forests.

                              Next merits, right off the bat, I'm getting a daiklave. It's awesome. 3 merits on danger sense, because he's got a bad feeling about everything. 3 on resources to represent his prize fight winnings. 3 more for his contacts in fighting tournaments, paying two bonus points for it.

                              Last three bonus points go into raising int to 3.


                              So we end up with

                              phys 3/3/3
                              soci 3/3/5
                              ment 3/3/2

                              5 melee (Outnumbered, gladiators)
                              5 performance (Sanxian)
                              3 brawl
                              2 athl
                              2 aware
                              3 dodge
                              3 resistance
                              2 medicine (self)
                              2 survival
                              3 socialize
                              2 presence

                              Call the Blade
                              Summoning the Loyal Steel
                              Excellent Strike
                              Iron Raptor
                              Sandstorm Wind Attack
                              1W2B
                              Fire and Stones
                              Dipping Swallow
                              Solar Counter
                              Masterful Performance Excercise
                              Perfect Harmony Technique
                              Mood-Inducing Music
                              Thunderclap Rush
                              Ferocious Jab
                              Heaven Thunder Hammer
                              ox body 2x

                              Daiklave, light armor, danger sence, resourses 3, contacts 3


                              Combat statline of:

                              join battle 4+4
                              Daiklave 11+8(Damage 15/5)
                              Soak 6/0
                              Parry 5+4
                              Dodge 3+3


                              tldr; He's a badass but he's not killing a Wyld Hunt on his own with a butter knife.

                              Now, I've been sold on this game that as a Dawn in Exalted my main concern is not that people are trying to kill me, it's how to deal with the boredom of always winning, weeping because there are no foes left who can challenge me, and what is the meaning of victory. That is not what I get with this character. This guy would not casually beat even the Experienced Dragon-Blood soldier from the corebook one-on-one. You're not really getting that game that everyone promised.

                              Flip back again to Godsend. Let's say you're playing the Prophet Avatar type. They're like a classic speaker for the gods, charismatic and wise. Oh no, though, what happens if they run afoul of an army? A great horde of ten thousand men who come charging to slay your poor raggedy robed charact- yeah, no. Unleash the Fury of War. They die. Now we move on to what the repercussions of me slaying 10,000 soldiers with one mighty shout are, or however I chose to explain that.

                              There's no optimization bar for entry, it's just if you're a god-avatar, you win. Now what? That last part actually has mechanical hooks so your character's powers say "Well, now what indeed, but I use this power to make it so that 'now what' isn't that the land is blighted by our actions. However I did not use my power to prevent one of my allies from becoming disgusted by my actions and leaving me."


                              Incidentally, Godsend also doesn't give a rat's ass about detailing the intricacies of the world because your characters are so above it, and are such forces for change. In the Realm book we have an awesome depiction of the Immaculate Order, the way it operates, the monks, some specific monks, how it spends money, all that, I love it. That would never happen in Godsend. An action you take in Godsend could destroy the entire institution of the Order in one single Move and it's all rendered moot. Individuals may seek out the characters for help, and in that way those individual characters matter, but at no time does it ever factor in specifically what ministry of the government they work for.

                              Because of that though, it also takes a huge load off my end. I don't have to think through the million real-world repercussions of doing something like, say, using awesome bureaucracy skills to forgive all debt in the Realm. It's just, there's chaos in the empire now, that's as specific as we're getting. Fix it if you dare.


                              I also know I seem like I'm just talking up Godsend a lot, but I actually prefer Exalted, honestly. It's just that Godsend really is asking what if it didn't matter if you could do something, but what happens when you inevitably succeed? and then the actual game was about that. Instead of hundreds and hundreds of pages of mechanics that seem like they're detailing a game about epic high adventure, but really it isn't. Then like some kind of hidden social science experiment from the sixties it's all a false pretense to get you to engage with the actual game, which has no rules or even guidelines at all because the book can't admit that's what you're actually playing.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
                                Now, I've been sold on this game that as a Dawn in Exalted my main concern is not that people are trying to kill me, it's how to deal with the boredom of always winning, weeping because there are no foes left who can challenge me, and what is the meaning of victory.
                                I don't think that's the intended story for most char-gen Dawn Castes, but rather a potential end-point for a late-game/career Dawn Caste.


                                Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

                                My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X