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How can you make Chejop Kejak turn Gold Faction?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Penelope View Post
    Accelerator the Ebon Dragon is a godlike entity. More powerful than most gods and older than all of them. He probably could defeat even the oldest Sidereal regardless of what the rules say about “perfect” defenses. And even if he is trapped in Hell (which isn’t called Malfeas anymore), he is certainly capable of indirectly manipulating events in Creation.
    The game has always ran on a principle of Defense Always Wins. There's no trans-perfect special level of super-perfects that beat perfects. That kind of arms-racing is kidn of degenerate in many games and is something Exalted avoided. The Exalted defeated the enemies fo the gods with all the tools they ahve before Essence 5 basically. And part of that is there's no "Better than perfect' effects in previous editions, and 3e in general voids such effects, but but also has nothing that circumvents the defenses we have.

    The game also doesn't give by default a presumption that ancientness or grandness give cart blanch immunity to other beings, nor to surpass their immunities. He's on the same playing field as everyone else, even if he has greater affordances on what he can do there. ANd part of that is he doesn't have some "Screw over other characters perfectly" power.

    Malfeas is also still synonnymous with Hell as a note. Hell just is often more used I think since it's easier to spell and folks tend to want to separate the location form the entity to speak on it broadly, but it never stopped beng Hell anymore than Yu-Shan stopped being Heaven.


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    • #32
      Are there any mental perfect defense in Ex3? If not then just convince Kejak with Social Action ‘till he’s dead.


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      • #33
        Originally posted by Jen View Post
        Are there any mental perfect defense in Ex3? If not then just convince Kejak with Social Action ‘till he’s dead.
        Social influence doens't work quite like that, and generally berrating someone with a topic that goes pretty storng against one of their Defining intimacies is a good way for them to not listen to you to begin with.


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        • #34
          Yeah, having a bucket of success doesn’t actually do much in the social game it seems when compare against combat.

          I’m just mostly interested in the whole “perfect mental defense” angle since I remember one of the backer request something like that in the Miracle book but the author says no.


          The no.1 fan of Demetheus. I also draw Exalted things and is looking for commission works ~

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Blaque View Post

            The game has always ran on a principle of Defense Always Wins. There's no trans-perfect special level of super-perfects that beat perfects. That kind of arms-racing is kidn of degenerate in many games and is something Exalted avoided. The Exalted defeated the enemies fo the gods with all the tools they ahve before Essence 5 basically. And part of that is there's no "Better than perfect' effects in previous editions, and 3e in general voids such effects, but but also has nothing that circumvents the defenses we have.

            The game also doesn't give by default a presumption that ancientness or grandness give cart blanch immunity to other beings, nor to surpass their immunities. He's on the same playing field as everyone else, even if he has greater affordances on what he can do there. ANd part of that is he doesn't have some "Screw over other characters perfectly" power.

            Malfeas is also still synonnymous with Hell as a note. Hell just is often more used I think since it's easier to spell and folks tend to want to separate the location form the entity to speak on it broadly, but it never stopped beng Hell anymore than Yu-Shan stopped being Heaven.
            (Last paragraph) Okay, I didn’t know that.

            I thought the Ebon Dragon was like an Antediluvian in Exalted. If he really wanted you dead you were pretty much dead, even if you were an elder Sidereal like Chejop Kejak.


            “It is a far far better thing I do than I have ever done...” Sidney Carton’s last line before going to the guillotine to save his True Love and her husband

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Penelope View Post
              I thought the Ebon Dragon was like an Antediluvian in Exalted. If he really wanted you dead you were pretty much dead, even if you were an elder Sidereal like Chejop Kejak.
              The beings who became the Yozis were able to be challenged and even defeated by the armies of the Exalted. While I wouldn't bet on a single Exalt who was facing off against one of those grand titans, at least one did manage to triumph over such an enemy.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Penelope View Post
                I thought the Ebon Dragon was like an Antediluvian in Exalted. If he really wanted you dead you were pretty much dead, even if you were an elder Sidereal like Chejop Kejak.
                The Ebon Dragon's main strength outside of a doomsday scenario is that he's basically an organisation capable of advancing his agenda through demons such as Alveua and Mara who are their own people with their own interests and connections within Creation but they're also to some extent a part of him.


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                • #38
                  TheCountAlucard, Lioness okay. Thanks.


                  “It is a far far better thing I do than I have ever done...” Sidney Carton’s last line before going to the guillotine to save his True Love and her husband

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Jen View Post
                    I’m just mostly interested in the whole “perfect mental defense” angle since I remember one of the backer request something like that in the Miracle book but the author says no.
                    3e does not have any omni-applicable "perfect social defense" charms, and I doubt it ever will. Solar Integrity has a number of effects that allow you to resist or totally reject influences that go against your core Intimacies, but nothing really that does the same if one of your core Intimacies is the one being leveraged to get you to agree. In 3e, Solar Integrity is about being true to yourself, upholding your key beliefs above all else, but that necessarily implies also being able to be persuaded based on those beliefs.

                    More generally, perfect social defenses were, frankly, boring in 2e. A character with a lot of investment in Integrity could just go about saying "nope!" to every proposition, including totally reasonable offers that lined up with their stated ideologies. In my experience, it led to PCs where the player wasn't actually thinking about what the character wanted at all, just what would be the most tactically advantageous choice to make at all times.

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                    • #40
                      Kejak is objectively one of the most intelligent and powerful beings in the known universe, maybe the most if we focus on humans. He doesn't belong to the Bronze faction. The Bronze faction exists because most Sidereals choose to align themselves with Kejak and his inner circle, and Kejak's considered (and popular!) opinion based on thousands of years of observation and a fair bit of foresight is that Solar-level power in falible human hands poses an existential risk to civilization and life as we know it.

                      It may as well be physics, or statistics. Continuity needs stability, stability needs consistency. One massively powerful Solar is unpredictable and therefore dangerous. In a society of Dragon-blooded, on the other hand, individuals have less personal power and their impulses are tempered by their connections to each other.

                      So what would it even mean for Kejak to "switch factions"? He'd have to decide that, like his protege Ayesha Ura professes, the benefits of controlling the relatively small number of powerful Solars outweigh the costs and the risks.

                      Which, as it turns out, is either easy (if it's true) or impossible (if it's not). You'd need some challenge that Solars (as a group) could handle that no one else, even Sidereals backed by Heaven, cannot. In that case, the calculus changes.

                      FWIW, in 3e, with its focus on Solars as individuals and on ground-level stories, I think the Bronze faction has a stronger case.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Blackwell View Post
                        Kejak is objectively one of the most intelligent and powerful beings in the known universe, maybe the most if we focus on humans. He doesn't belong to the Bronze faction. The Bronze faction exists because most Sidereals choose to align themselves with Kejak and his inner circle, and Kejak's considered (and popular!) opinion based on thousands of years of observation and a fair bit of foresight is that Solar-level power in falible human hands poses an existential risk to civilization and life as we know it.

                        It may as well be physics, or statistics. Continuity needs stability, stability needs consistency. One massively powerful Solar is unpredictable and therefore dangerous. In a society of Dragon-blooded, on the other hand, individuals have less personal power and their impulses are tempered by their connections to each other.

                        So what would it even mean for Kejak to "switch factions"? He'd have to decide that, like his protege Ayesha Ura professes, the benefits of controlling the relatively small number of powerful Solars outweigh the costs and the risks.

                        Which, as it turns out, is either easy (if it's true) or impossible (if it's not). You'd need some challenge that Solars (as a group) could handle that no one else, even Sidereals backed by Heaven, cannot. In that case, the calculus changes.

                        FWIW, in 3e, with its focus on Solars as individuals and on ground-level stories, I think the Bronze faction has a stronger case.
                        I Liked this post. Very intelligent and well-reasoned.


                        “It is a far far better thing I do than I have ever done...” Sidney Carton’s last line before going to the guillotine to save his True Love and her husband

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Penelope View Post

                          (Last paragraph) Okay, I didn’t know that.

                          I thought the Ebon Dragon was like an Antediluvian in Exalted. If he really wanted you dead you were pretty much dead, even if you were an elder Sidereal like Chejop Kejak.
                          Exalted pretty purposefully avoids beings like the Antedeluvians. They can be challenged and in 2e he was even quite challengable. Hard, but doable by properly built PC groups in context of what properly built for 2e was.

                          The fact that he's well, in Hell and never will get out by Exalted design, and surrendered due to his fear fod eath by the Exalted's hands, show he's quite defeatable. The Yozis are powerful, ancient, and vast beings. THey're still beings which operate in a setting where they are not just defeatable, but actually arelady defeated. And as Lioness notes, often in ways which don't look like giant kaiju rampages even if he himself looks a lot like one.


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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Blackwell View Post
                            Kejak is objectively one of the most intelligent and powerful beings in the known universe, maybe the most if we focus on humans. He doesn't belong to the Bronze faction. The Bronze faction exists because most Sidereals choose to align themselves with Kejak and his inner circle, and Kejak's considered (and popular!) opinion based on thousands of years of observation and a fair bit of foresight is that Solar-level power in falible human hands poses an existential risk to civilization and life as we know it.

                            It may as well be physics, or statistics. Continuity needs stability, stability needs consistency. One massively powerful Solar is unpredictable and therefore dangerous. In a society of Dragon-blooded, on the other hand, individuals have less personal power and their impulses are tempered by their connections to each other.

                            ... I think the Bronze faction has a stronger case
                            I'm gonna just let the bolded parts speak for itself, on why I find this hypocrisy annoying. Let alone that the power of the Dragonblooded is still being used on the powerless with little if no real consequences that I find the argument so weak.

                            Still while Kejak is a old entrenched exalted, and honestly a interesting character. As others have stated it is possible if you wisely use the social system to do so. Although it may very well take a lot of time.

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                            • #44
                              I expect that Chejop can often benefit from the perfect social defence of being unlikely to be in the same room as a Solar, or anybody else that would strongly argue against his world view. That feels like it would be the biggest complicating factor; the system presents challenges to changing his mind, the story presents challenges to even being in the position.


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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Penelope View Post

                                (Last paragraph) Okay, I didn’t know that.

                                I thought the Ebon Dragon was like an Antediluvian in Exalted. If he really wanted you dead you were pretty much dead, even if you were an elder Sidereal like Chejop Kejak.
                                One of the biggest differences of Exalted is that, no, you can't just get chumped by the big players. They always have to let the dice fall. And for the Ebon Dragon? He's already lost.

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