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  • #46
    Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
    And if the devs are reading this, I'd prefer Marama get the "Raksi" treatment of being rewritten to be more nuanced, than the "Lilith" treatment of being completely rewritten from the ground up.


    What did the Solars do in the First Age to provoke the Usurpation? Published 3E text sources only please. I got one generic paragraph on page 20 of the Corebook.

    And maybe this is a racial issue, IDK, but corrupt masters engineering a social system where the absolute, unquestionable brilliance of their slaves is actively overlooked and maligned speaks to me.

    My ancestors who were priests and princes and poets were stripped of their dignity and forced into fields to pick crops because they were forced into a system that didn't think they were good for anything. I see the plight of my people replicated in the Gens.

    And yes, a family of superhumans acting as sex workers for a holy city is on-the-nose. That's the point. That's literally the point.
    First paragraph: I agree with you that it’s better to rewrite characters to be more nuanced, but Lilith needed a lot of work.

    Second paragraph: I don’t know exactly what the Solars did to provoke the Usurpation, but I suspect a big part of it was that they treated the Dragon-Blooded like a slave race, or at least like second-class citizens. Also, another big part was that the Solars degenerated and became both decadent and crazy in general.

    Third and fourth paragraphs: Totally agree.


    The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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    • #47
      One more thing: from the very first time I read it, when I barely knew what Exalted was, the image of Lilith as a strong Lunar lady, an icon of femininity (hence her name), beaten into submission by her boyfriend to the point where her Limit Break is literally called the Whipped Dog, REALLY set my teeth on edge. I’m glad they changed her.


      The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

        Well, the core story of Lilith was always a Lunar who responded to the pain of the Usurpation by spending centuries hiding as an owl.



        Where did their food come from?
        Hey Isator. I'll take the two week ban.

        Fuck you, you enormous piece of shit.

        How DARE YOU defend chattle slavery in an effort to win a fucking edition war argument.

        Sincerely, fuck yourself.


        Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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        • #49
          Okay, formal warning for the personal attack.

          I'm not banning anyone or ejecting anyone from the thread if we're capable of moving past this. The comment was insensitive in-context and I'd appreciate PMs about if there's some specific coded language at play or what "Where did their food come from?" was going for.

          Edit: Upon additional consideration I am exten
          ding the warning to Isator Levi's post. His post history makes it unlikely this was a racist attack and he's helped me understand what he intended to say, but there was a style of rhetoric at play that contributed to the misunderstanding and on a sensitive matter such as this it's only fair that we all take responsibility for our words.

          Thank you for everyone who helped out in matter.
          Last edited by Lioness; 08-22-2020, 04:42 PM.


          Onyx Path Forum Moderator
          Please spare a thought for updating the Exalted wiki.

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          • #50
            The three sample Dragon-Blooded were poorly chosen if they were expected to provide insight into what their lives were because of the three only Vagyn Zû seems 'normal'.

            Saibok Gauto is Dragon-Blooded Methuselah and Anjei Marama is conditioned not to harm a Solar Exalt even if her own life depends on it.


            success is the ability to go from one failure to the next without any loss of enthusiasm

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            • #51
              Thoughts, as a setting: There was a lot of pile-on toward it for being a bit of a "Bright Near Future Anime Sci-Fi" setting. (This was a thing at the time! Seems less so now! For reasons!). Bit of a mouthful to say that but you probably(?) get the point. The pile-on always seemed unfair given how the "Records of the Before" had built up the First Age in the First Edition Aspect Books and so forth, as something roughly like this combined with a "High Fantasy" setting (which in turn has some resonances with a bucolic ideal, I guess somewhat Confucian in resonances that Geoff Grabowski seemed to comment on finding an interesting way to modulate the First Age).

              That aside, I don't think it was very skillfully written, to be honest. It's all a bit referential to earlier Exalted works and lacking in innovation (too much Autochthon, etc), and sort of compresses things together in some senses, rather than opening up space in a useful manner. There are things I think, with hindsight are pretty bad moves (is it really a good idea to suggest the Unconquered Sun at ab initio descended and granted rulership to, like, a single Solar Exalt?) - but that's with hindsight! There seems like some stuff that seems very 2eism - like Wyld Shaping Technique as one of *the* signature Solar things, to the degree they have a whole era of the First Age that's defined by "Solars used Wyld Shaping Technique a *lot*!". There are some writing style problems I guess as well - some overuse of pseudo-Chinese motifs in naming stands out to me.

              There are definitely some interesting ideas to mine out though (history-wise, I quite like the idea that the Solars went full bonkers when they realized they had lifespans, and the idea of some "harbingers" like the "Time of Cascading Years" or "Wyldhand" is interesting.)

              A lot of the problems with it to me lie in the authors being more constrained to sort of draw together bits of what Geoff Grabowski had dropped over the years, and knit together popular 1e-2e setting elements, and in some senses serve the Age of Sorrows setting. There are some other problems that probably degenerate from how 2e specifically construed the nature of Exalted power and Charms. In many ways it's sort of a setting idea that in an ideal world of unlimited creative resources I'd like to see built with a freer hand - perhaps this is possible within Exalted's mainline world, perhaps better suited to being a "shard"?

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              • #52
                Loved it. Facet Raven. Queen K'tula. That one time where every Exalt got to be the only Exalt in Creation because time broke and if they saved the world they got to re-merge with the prime timeline. The guidebook to Meru's dripping condescension for mortals. The art! The potential for drama!

                One of my players wishes to ascend to storyteller, and she is set on telling her story in the First Age. I can't think of higher praise.


                The Sack of Chiaroscuro - In a southern satrapy a Lunar elder must escape the results of his war-gambit against the Realm, but faces the city's mother-god as he tries to flee.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                  What did the Solars do in the First Age to provoke the Usurpation? Published 3E text sources only please. I got one generic paragraph on page 20 of the Corebook. There's literally nothing in What Fire Has Wrought or Fangs at the Gate. CoCD: Blessed Isle said every mortal on the Isle had suffered under the Solars. The Realm only speaks of the Usurpation twice -- once is to mention the Solar dead, and the other is... this: "Third Daughter won’t forgive Heaven or the Realm until the suffering meted out to the Dragon-Blooded and the Sidereals equals that which they incicted in the Usurpation."

                  In 3E*, Dragon-Blooded aren't an oppressed underclass overthrowing their masters. They're respected, courted, warriors who are wrecking the High First Age with their own constant bloody warfare... and who continue to do so after overthrowing the Solars. And their motivation for overthrowing the Solars? Well in WFHW it's "Because the Sidereals said so".

                  And maybe this is a racial issue, IDK, but corrupt masters engineering a social system where the absolute, unquestionable brilliance of their slaves is actively overlooked and maligned speaks to me.

                  My ancestors who were priests and princes and poets were stripped of their dignity and forced into fields to pick crops because they were forced into a system that didn't think they were good for anything. I see the plight of my people replicated in the Gens.

                  And yes, a family of superhumans acting as sex workers for a holy city is on-the-nose. That's the point. That's literally the point.

                  *The presentation of the Dragon-Blooded in the Second Age (lore and mechanics) is the best it's ever been. Critacism of their First Age portrayal in 2E is perfectly valid. My point is that there's a massive stylistic difference between 3E and 2E, and which you prefer is a matter of taste.
                  I agree the books don't present an explicit "what went wrong scenario", which is a cool idea I think. I hope for the future if they publish anything concerning the First Age, it'll be mostly apocryphal (or avoid the apparent 2e peculiarity of explaining everything).

                  So here's my view on the matter : What I like about 3e is that it doesn't tell us explicitly why the DB did it, which is the opportunity to make it very political and personnal. I've already talked about my headcanons so to me the world was kinda decentralized, with no "global union of Solars to control the world" or whatever. The DB weren't in an especially bad position, except for the fact that everyone (Solars included) was starting to be in a bad position because Solars and Lunars were starting to get devoured by their Curse (Sidereals maybe but I don't know them enough). So they didn't decide to do it for one simple ideological reason like "Solars are the worst" or "We DB don't deserve to be at the bottom", they decided to do it because each of them had different cultural, personal, historical and political reasons to decide to destroy the Solars and Lunars. That's what I really like about 3e in general : I feel everything that happen is worth a story of its own, with its own determining factors. The DB and people of the Cha'Sca Empire and around rose against their God-Kings Champions because they desecrated their honors and broke the hierarchy among the clans they created themselves. The DB and people of the Ikir Kingdoms rose against their Solar Pharaos because they lied to them about destroying the 3rd Circle demon their ancestors brought down together. The DB and people of the now Blessed Isle rose against their Brotherhood because they used the Realm Defense Grid in a conflict that could be resolved through peace and diplomacy.

                  The Sidereals could still have prepared for this moment (and encourage it), having the prisons and things ready to prevent Solars from reincarnating, but I for the moment I'm much more interested in seeing things like this than that "World was led by Solars overlord with everyone else as their slave and they unanimously decided to kill them because they didn't like to live in slavery and were promised power by the Sidereals" which I feel remove a lot of their individuality. I think a major success of Exalted 3e is that it makes you feel each culture is unique and worth trying to see the world through their eyes, so I like my perspective on these things because I think it goes along nicely with this feeling.
                  Last edited by Chausse; 08-23-2020, 05:09 AM.


                  My homebrew (Leave comments if you want to help improve) : A quick recap of all the pools and stats for Quick Exalted 3E characters

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Tikor View Post
                    Loved it. Facet Raven. Queen K'tula. That one time where every Exalt got to be the only Exalt in Creation because time broke and if they saved the world they got to re-merge with the prime timeline. The guidebook to Meru's dripping condescension for mortals. The art! The potential for drama!

                    One of my players wishes to ascend to storyteller, and she is set on telling her story in the First Age. I can't think of higher praise.
                    Good luck to her. My experience is that the DotFA setting magnifies a lot of the problems people have with running Exalted.

                    -The power disparity between the different Exalt types is underscored.
                    - The absence of Abyssals and Infernals denies the ST an easy source of antagonism.
                    - The abundance of NPCs who could probably fix the PCs problems that have nothing better to do.
                    - The NPCs being too familiar to the PCs. Good luck trying to run Desus as the guy they slowly discover is an asshole.
                    - The concept of Solars having their own Dragon-Blooded Gens can cause major focusing issues.
                    - The leaning towards running a kingdom as a playstyle will bore the shit out of some players who were fine with it in vanilla but weren't prepared for how much they'd basically be sitting around saying "hey, remember when we used to go on adventures?"
                    - The antipathy for mortals undermining the above for players who might otherwise be invested in it.

                    Still, trial by fire works for a lot of people.



                    Onyx Path Forum Moderator
                    Please spare a thought for updating the Exalted wiki.

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                    • #55
                      My favorite part of the idea of 300 Solars somehow reducing 1M Dragon-Blooded to chattel is “You and what army?” Those DBs were the army.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Sith_Happens View Post
                        My favorite part of the idea of 300 Solars somehow reducing 1M Dragon-Blooded to chattel is “You and what army?” Those DBs were the army.
                        Hmm. Hadn’t thought about that. You raise a good point. But then how do you explain a whole gens of enslaved Dragon-Blooded sex workers?


                        The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Sith_Happens View Post
                          My favorite part of the idea of 300 Solars somehow reducing 1M Dragon-Blooded to chattel is “You and what army?” Those DBs were the army.
                          Yeah, the basic idea there is that a single Dawn can fairly easily slay 3,000-4,000 Dragonblooded warriors, see above where a Dawn can attack all enemies within 30 miles with accuracy and damage that splats anything without a perfect defense, for which the Dragonblooded ones explicitly fail against any form of Exalted magic.

                          That wouldn't even be necessary, though, because a single Zenith could just use Horizon-to-Horizon Performance Method to target all Dragonblooded in a circle 2,000 miles wide with a social attack that annihilates their MDV and just convince them all to shut up and get on their knees, and they would do it. The Solar could even combine that with a charm that erases the memories of the Dragonblooded, and convinces them that there has never been any sort of discontent for the rule of the Solar in their whole life.



                          Which are both also reasons people said that the Usurpation couldn't happen, and examples of DotFA being utterly inconsistent with the game lore. Solars were given the mega epic high essence charms that allowed them to fight thousands of Dragonblooded and win easily, or dominate their minds and cast them into hell with nothing but a song. Then the Dragonblooded, who barely lived long enough to reach Essence 6 in the first place, were given a fraction of the charm count, and most of them, while cool, didn't help in the slightest when being matched against Solar power.

                          So even the tiny handful of DB elders who did exist couldn't justify defending against Solar elders, and all the other DBs who were in the vast majority Essence 2-4 had no hope.

                          Also Sidereals didn't even get new ability charms, just a new MA style, in case you were thinking the elder Sidereals must have done all the heavy lifting here.
                          Last edited by DrLoveMonkey; 08-23-2020, 04:10 PM.

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                          • #58
                            I like much DotFA , I create a game much functional and the PCs, Solars and Sidereals with Essence 6 and 7, still having problems. The main PC's problem is avoid the Deliberative rules and fighting against the corrupted and mad celestial exalted. All characters from this game still "living" in the mind of my players and, often, they use then as part of a character's past or use in your games as plot device (many things leaved behind, like monsters and ruins).

                            Sadly, the game don't go so long because of players agenda. I still have many notes, characters sheet and other things from this game, if anyone want, I can post a few things here. For me, DotFA is a very good and fun game, but need a dedicated GM to invest more energy to create a good and elaborated storyline.

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                            • #59
                              My impression of Dreams has changed over time, and I cannot repeat, with certainty, how I first felt about it.

                              Currently, I view it as lazy.

                              Not in the matter of the writing or production, which I know very little about, but in the world it depicts. The way the proliferation of artifacts is presented makes them cheap (not in the sense of cost to produce) out AND in setting. Significant aspects of the setting like the highly magitechnological armed forces seem like they were deliberately designed so that the Exalted didn't have to get involved. The Deliberative seems less like a governing body and more like an agreement for the young Exalts to not challenge the power and status of the entrenched powers in exchange for benefits. The Mandala Accords are almost literally written to give Exalts a moral pardon for being careless in their approach to the world/life.

                              The setting has a deep fetishization of technology and the technological paradigm of the modern West, as if there is no other way that a sophisticated or prosperous or "happy" society could possibly be organized. There is almost no emphasis on personal cultivation of spiritual growth. Enlightenment can be accomplished with a medical procedure and is viewed more like a job certification than something life changing or personally transformative. Faith had gone from a fairly pragmatic, transactional orthopraxy to a cynical materialism on the level of paying your taxes. There is no sense of respect for anything, be it the gods or even the Exalted. All those sumptuous laws about things like who got to use what sidewalk point to a breakdown of respect and its replacement with mere law.

                              The First Age of Dreams is late Numenor, at the noontide of its power but the gloaming of its wisdom and bliss. Its a world of people with the power to make life free and beautiful for everyone who just gave up on that project. It is tired and lost because it doesn't believe in anything to work toward other than increasing its own power and splendor forever as an end unto itself.
                              Last edited by Exthalion; 08-23-2020, 10:17 PM.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Penelope View Post

                                Hmm. Hadn’t thought about that. You raise a good point. But then how do you explain a whole gens of enslaved Dragon-Blooded sex workers?
                                I wouldn't. If something in a book contradicts, "The Dragon-Blooded were the heroic soldiers and trusted bodyguards of the Exalted Host, as interesting and worthy of protagonist status as any other Exalt," I would cut that thing. Especially if that thing equates sex work to slavery, degradation, corruption, or some combination thereof.

                                Might a gens gain a reputation for excellent sexual services? Sure. But that comes with a set of very human complications that would be interesting to explore without bringing magical slavery into the mix.


                                Hey, check out my first original RPG, Post-Mortem, here: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/307131/PostMortem

                                Or read my Exalted novella The Silence of Our Ancestors here: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...looded-Novella

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