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Martial Arts Merit Cost

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  • Tyzerg
    started a topic Martial Arts Merit Cost

    Martial Arts Merit Cost

    My new group just houserules that the Merit cost for MA makes no sense and that you can take it as an ability right out the gate. They want me to run a game for them and I'm hesitant as I'm new to the system to allow this. It seems that the cost of 4 (which is on par with Artifact 4 or Resources 4) is high enough to significantly affect the balance of the game if we were just to throw it away.

    Is there a good reason the MA merit is so expensive?

  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    Oh, I think there will be "archery" and "thrown" Charms in Essence, but I think they're going to be capstones or offshoots of the core tree for ranged rather than full separate trees. I don't think we'll see many of them though, because there isn't as much of a need to give Archery and Thrown their own flavors in Essence. Instead of Thrown getting a lot more "trick" Charms to Archery's direct boosting, I don't think Essence has a good reason to worry about that.

    Which opens up space for MA.

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  • Sunder the Gold
    replied
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    I highly doubt we'll see Essence go into specific Charms for individual classes of weapons that narrow. We don't have basic Charms now that care about throwing knives vs. javelins.
    That's because basic Charms and Martial Arts Charms are already separate.

    But see, when there's no Thrown or Archery or Righteous Devil Martial Arts or Night Breeze Martial Arts or Air Dragon Martial Arts, just a single "Ranged Combat" Ability, then you can already anticipate Charm trees for archery separate from throwing weapons, and potentially a set of Charms for chakram (Air Dragon) separate from those for throwing knives (Night Breeze).

    Though it's entirely possible that the Charms simply won't have that much granularity, and weapons will contain all of their unique traits within themselves through a Tag system like vanilla Third Edition.

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  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    I highly doubt we'll see Essence go into specific Charms for individual classes of weapons that narrow. We don't have basic Charms now that care about throwing knives vs. javelins.

    I would much rather see page count on something like the idea of MA-as-single-Form-Charms that make you really good with a small selection of weapons (esp. with broader Abilities) and some boosts with cross-ability appeal. One Righteous Devil Form Charm is, to me, valuable. 2-3 firewarnd specific universal Charms are less so; at least from what I understand of Essence.

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  • Sunder the Gold
    replied
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    I'm hoping Essence does approach MA in a different way in general.

    I haven't kept up on the news, so I don't know how much detail MA has gotten in the previews.

    What I'd hope is that MA (as the whole project's goal is to reduce things and make them more manageable), if it is going to remain its own thing, would be reduced to single Form Charms rather than distinct combat Charm trees; or at least something similar.
    With all Close Combat Charms and Ranged Combat Charms being universal, it seems like a great opportunity to cut out a lot of what Exalted has treated as "Martial Arts".

    Have a short Ranged Combat Charm tree for projectiles in general, a separate short tree specifically for small throwing blades, another for larger projectiles like javelins, a tree for firewands that easily encompasses everything Righteous Devil Style could offer (including a Form Charm that forbids armor)...

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  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    I'm hoping Essence does approach MA in a different way in general.

    I haven't kept up on the news, so I don't know how much detail MA has gotten in the previews.

    What I'd hope is that MA (as the whole project's goal is to reduce things and make them more manageable), if it is going to remain its own thing, would be reduced to single Form Charms rather than distinct combat Charm trees; or at least something similar.

    Leave a comment:


  • Epitome
    replied
    Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
    Is anyone hoping for any particular solutions in Exalted: Essence?
    In Essence Martial Arts Charms are Close Combat/Ranged Combat Charms, so there should be no need to gate them behind a merit. At worst I could see like a 1 dot cost per MA just so people don't dip into them nilly-willy, but I don't expect a whopping 4 dot gate (or whatever the equivalent of merit dots will be in Essence).

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  • Sunder the Gold
    replied
    Is anyone hoping for any particular solutions in Exalted: Essence?

    Leave a comment:


  • Lioness
    replied
    Originally posted by Sandact6 View Post
    MA forces you to either live with the (sometimes fairly huge) gaps in your charmset or forces you to buy up an entirely new combat ability. This is often rare for native sets, which give your character the ability to do almost anything and typically I don't need to repurchase another whole ability.
    Yeah. There's a reason why thus far only Lunars have parity between the xp costs for Evocations and Martial Arts charms.

    Leave a comment:


  • Chausse
    replied
    Originally posted by Sandact6 View Post

    Thing is an artifact is going to be fundamentally different first of all. Almost all artifacts are written with the assumption that you'll have your native charms to bolster them. I'm not saying that an artifact cannot have offensive or defense stuff, but they're made with the assumption of "Oh yea, the dude taking this will have an offense/defense suite that will allow them to expand past any holes the evocation suite has."

    MA's cannot assume this. MA's assume you're either taking dodge or using their native parry charms (which then need to be made into the MA). MA's contain a lot more generic workhorse charms than an evocation suite, which assumes you already have that by default. Usually any workhorse charms an evocation set has are effects that typically link up to later charms or match the theme of the artifact.

    That's my point. I think making the MA = Evocations thing is a very design trap to fall into myself. They're similar, but pretty different.
    Yes okay I see your point. I think for my games I'd go along with it because I'm not trying to make MA into Artefacts, but rather to give something interesting to MA that compel them a bit more to go into it without losing too much points (4 is a lot for solely accessing the Charms). I think I'd like to see a bit more characters using some new Charms and have really personalized way of fighting instead of hearing the eternal "I use Perfect Strike"

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  • Sandact6
    replied
    Originally posted by Chausse View Post

    I'm unsure of your comparison. If one of my player took an artifact 3 designed for fight with a Charmtree of around 10 Charms that do a specific related to the artifact, it'd be just like having a MA with some different conditions at the limit (not being disarmed, 1 merit point cost difference, etc ...). Even Artifacts 4 and 5 have potentially a lot more of Evocations but it's only if you take the hassle of designing them, if you don't because you just want the cool artifact to do what's written on it it's basically a MA.
    Thing is an artifact is going to be fundamentally different first of all. Almost all artifacts are written with the assumption that you'll have your native charms to bolster them. I'm not saying that an artifact cannot have offensive or defense stuff, but they're made with the assumption of "Oh yea, the dude taking this will have an offense/defense suite that will allow them to expand past any holes the evocation suite has."

    MA's cannot assume this. MA's assume you're either taking dodge or using their native parry charms (which then need to be made into the MA). MA's contain a lot more generic workhorse charms than an evocation suite, which assumes you already have that by default. Usually any workhorse charms an evocation set has are effects that typically link up to later charms or match the theme of the artifact.

    That's my point. I think making the MA = Evocations thing is a very design trap to fall into myself. They're similar, but pretty different.

    Leave a comment:


  • Chausse
    replied
    Originally posted by Sandact6 View Post
    You can hardly compare an artifact to an MA style.

    It's true that they're usually the same power as an artifact 4, but the issue is that when I get an artifact I usually have a suite of base competency charms in my natural charmset. Anything the artifact doesn't cover will be covered by my native charms.

    MA forces you to either live with the (sometimes fairly huge) gaps in your charmset or forces you to buy up an entirely new combat ability. This is often rare for native sets, which give your character the ability to do almost anything and typically I don't need to repurchase another whole ability. I don't need to do that for an evocation.

    This was so problematic I had to make homebrew in order to make it tolerable (Expanded Lotus).
    I'm unsure of your comparison. If one of my player took an artifact 3 designed for fight with a Charmtree of around 10 Charms that do a specific related to the artifact, it'd be just like having a MA with some different conditions at the limit (not being disarmed, 1 merit point cost difference, etc ...). Even Artifacts 4 and 5 have potentially a lot more of Evocations but it's only if you take the hassle of designing them, if you don't because you just want the cool artifact to do what's written on it it's basically a MA.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sith_Happens
    replied
    Originally posted by satoshi View Post
    One of my favorite moments in a rather long exalted game was when a party of 700+ XP Solars accepted a challenge from a group of Lunars to try and fight a pack of normal wolves without their weapons. The party assumed they would be fine but quickly realized that despite all their xp, none of those present that session had a single dot in brawl or MA. A pack of 6 completely normal wolves almost wrecked 4 high-xp solars, it was hilarious.
    That sound you hear is Sir Lancelot laughing the hardest.

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  • Sandact6
    replied
    You can hardly compare an artifact to an MA style.

    It's true that they're usually the same power as an artifact 4, but the issue is that when I get an artifact I usually have a suite of base competency charms in my natural charmset. Anything the artifact doesn't cover will be covered by my native charms.

    MA forces you to either live with the (sometimes fairly huge) gaps in your charmset or forces you to buy up an entirely new combat ability. This is often rare for native sets, which give your character the ability to do almost anything and typically I don't need to repurchase another whole ability. I don't need to do that for an evocation.

    This was so problematic I had to make homebrew in order to make it tolerable (Expanded Lotus).

    Leave a comment:


  • Chausse
    replied
    Hmmm. I don't think I would implement this as a Charm, but I'm not sure yet. The final effect I would like would probably be these : Every Martial Artist (so, that payed 4 dots of Merit) is somehow able to treat his martial weapon he uses with the Martial Weapon skills and Charms as having Artefacts stats, with the same constraint as those (attunement cost, for example) to avoid someone taking Martial Arts solely to gain the effects of Artifacts with pure mechanical advantages, for example. I'm not sure yet on some limits I would add or other specificities but it seems to be a nice catch to me for paying the 4 dot merit Martial Arts.

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