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The feasibility of Threshold Outcastes joining Celestials

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Tikor View Post
    I can't remember the book, but if we're talking about Realm/Anathema team-ups, wasn't it implied that Mnemon was considering allying (in her duplicitous way, so long as they're useful) with an Abyssal?
    Suspect you're thinking of Aspect Book: Earth, the intro fiction has her parlaying (underwater no less, with some slaughtering of demons to boot) with Perfected Tears Upon Alabaster Sorrow, an emissary for the Mask of Winters, and requesting support in the upcoming Civil War.
    Last edited by Moss Reynholm; 09-13-2020, 03:34 PM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Tikor View Post
      I can't remember the book, but if we're talking about Realm/Anathema team-ups, wasn't it implied that Mnemon was considering allying (in her duplicitous way, so long as they're useful) with an Abyssal?
      First Edition Aspect Book Earth had her entering into a non-aggression pact with the Mask of Winters. Ex3 has deliberately moved away from her characterisation in that book because it gave the civil war an obvious bad guy.


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      • #18
        Originally posted by Tikor View Post
        The example of Ten Winds in Keychain of Creation is both humorous and more of a 'meeting of equals' example of a Dragon-Blooded lending their services to Celestials.

        On the question of what to offer, Ten Winds gets to see if the Anathema are truly as capable of horrors as the Immaculate Philosophy asserts. On the 'squad goals' front, Ten Winds' inclusion to the party is posited as finding the best for the job. I think the author believed 'best' meant 'most story potential' which he jokes about by rejecting other less-thought-out characters in the opening comics.

        Partly. Remember the imbalanced (figuratively & literaly) Twilight with a personal cannon, or the fire aspect just before Ten Winds?

        Originally posted by Lioness View Post
        First Edition Aspect Book Earth had her entering into a non-aggression pact with the Mask of Winters. Ex3 has deliberately moved away from her characterisation in that book because it gave the civil war an obvious bad guy.
        What is a definitely good thing, not only for keeping all house leaders more balanced in the grey, but because Mnemon was always a lousy fit for such a deal, as she would be the one with less reason to be that desperate and more aware of how potentially disastrous for the Realm such an alliance could be.

        That said, i might be tempted to toy with a 3e revamp of that scene using Berit & Dukantha in their places, maybe.
        Last edited by Baaldam; 09-13-2020, 04:13 PM.

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        • #19
          Lioness I like how 3e handled it better. That makes a lot of sense.

          But yeah, I think the idea of an Outcaste Terrestrial working with the Anathema is pretty cool.


          The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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          • #20
            Some DBs might go "OH SHIT IT'S AN ANATHEMA," but some will be a lot more interested in who this new person is and what they're actually doing.

            If you have a common cause, or perhaps common enemies, why not make a deal? Many people are essentially opportunists, and would be entirely willing to work with someone they might not necessarily like (or fully trust) if they think they'll gain something by doing so. (It's unlikely that anyone has ever risen to serious power without making deals with people they thought were assholes along the way.) Anathema are terrifying monsters, so why not point them at your enemies?

            And then it turns out that this golden glowing demon guy isn't so bad at all once you get to know him, etc.

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            • #21
              There's an oft-forgotten scenario here that's arguably one of the more likely ones:

              > Be outcaste prince
              > Get urgent report that one of your soldiers lit the sky gold last week
              > Have them brought before you
              > "Am I gonna regret promoting you?"
              > "Absolutely not, my lord!"
              > Got that good Socialize
              > Seems legit
              > Jackpot

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              • #22
                Even for people outside and contrary to the Realm, I have a preference for Dragon Blooded to have distinct tendencies to at least have friction with Celestial Exalted. I think it makes the setting more vivid to make the dominance of the Terrestrial Exalted in the Second Age more than just confined to the Realm and a few other holdouts such as Lookshy and that it gives presence to the legacy of the Shogunate that is distinct from the remains of the First Age to have it as something forming a cultural basis for outcastes to draw upon and say "we also are Princes of the Earth". Sure, you can be a Threshold Exalt who greatly dislikes the Realm, but you can still aspire to that throne yourself and regard Solars and Lunars as undesirable competitors for it.

                I think Frostav's intentions and leanings here have been pretty good, but I do see in this thread a shadow of the old attitude of "Terrestrials outside of the Realm will fall under the influence of Solars by default", which I find distasteful.

                And I do think a significant extra flavour to the world that Third Edition has effectively portrayed as that a lot of people don't need to buy into Immaculate theology specifically to still look upon Solars and especially Lunars in terms of "these people can possess too much power to tolerate, and their personalities seem unstable in disturbing ways".

                There are absolutely plausible ways for outcastes and some Celestials to find common ground on basis of pragmatism or principle. But I think there should also be consideration for the possibility that, somewhere down the line, somebody is going to Limit Break in a manner that they'll have to account for to the satisfaction of the Dragon Blood, because the explanations provided by the Immaculates and the legends of the Shogunate are present and familiar and compelling. I think there's rich drama to the story of a Solar or Lunar presenting an effectively moving alternative narrative.


                I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                  Even for people outside and contrary to the Realm, I have a preference for Dragon Blooded to have distinct tendencies to at least have friction with Celestial Exalted. I think it makes the setting more vivid to make the dominance of the Terrestrial Exalted in the Second Age more than just confined to the Realm and a few other holdouts such as Lookshy and that it gives presence to the legacy of the Shogunate that is distinct from the remains of the First Age to have it as something forming a cultural basis for outcastes to draw upon and say "we also are Princes of the Earth". Sure, you can be a Threshold Exalt who greatly dislikes the Realm, but you can still aspire to that throne yourself and regard Solars and Lunars as undesirable competitors for it.

                  I think Frostav's intentions and leanings here have been pretty good, but I do see in this thread a shadow of the old attitude of "Terrestrials outside of the Realm will fall under the influence of Solars by default", which I find distasteful.

                  And I do think a significant extra flavour to the world that Third Edition has effectively portrayed as that a lot of people don't need to buy into Immaculate theology specifically to still look upon Solars and especially Lunars in terms of "these people can possess too much power to tolerate, and their personalities seem unstable in disturbing ways".

                  There are absolutely plausible ways for outcastes and some Celestials to find common ground on basis of pragmatism or principle. But I think there should also be consideration for the possibility that, somewhere down the line, somebody is going to Limit Break in a manner that they'll have to account for to the satisfaction of the Dragon Blood, because the explanations provided by the Immaculates and the legends of the Shogunate are present and familiar and compelling. I think there's rich drama to the story of a Solar or Lunar presenting an effectively moving alternative narrative.
                  You raise a good point in your second paragraph.


                  The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post

                    There's at least one example in 3e of a whole culture of DBs allying with Lunars (New Dakuo, Lunars p. 107). So there's precedent.
                    You know, I've heard New Dakuo referenced a lot since the revised text came out, but only just looked at it myself.

                    It seems to me that all of those references neglected to mention that the book seems to present it more as the Dragon Blooded being allied to Lunar, singular. The whole line about how, with that one having died, the replacement provided by the Shadow Fang Vanguard is having trouble assuming leadership.

                    Sure, a replacement at all suggests that the alliance was with the Vanguard du jure, but it reads like de facto it went for the specific person who fought for the city, and interaction with alternative Lunars is frought at best.

                    But that doesn't seem to be how people have spoken about it.


                    I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                    Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Baaldam View Post


                      Sounds better, but why would them not take over later on? What does having the anathema as a secret ally offer them?
                      Money is a better incentive for Exalts than a lot of people in the fanbase are willing to admit.


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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Lioness View Post
                        Money is a better incentive for Exalts than a lot of people in the fanbase are willing to admit.
                        "Aww, twenty dollars, I wanted a peanut."
                        ​"Twenty dollars can buy many peanuts."
                        "Explain how!"
                        "Money can be exchanged for goods and services."
                        ​"Whoo-hoo!"

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Lioness View Post
                          Money is a better incentive for Exalts than a lot of people in the fanbase are willing to admit.
                          I've always wondered about that.

                          Just how much money is an Exalted worth, anyway?

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Accelerator View Post
                            Just how much money is an Exalted worth, anyway?
                            You don't typically buy Exalts like hammers or chickens. Think of it more as a retainer fee, or perhaps a stipend to keep them loyal to you, like in the Scarlet Dynasty. My Solar pays Invisible Horse Princess a stipend of some number of talents of silver a year, ostensibly to be his bodyguard. (It's really more so she's got an operating budget without the need to start accepting assassination contracts.)

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Lioness View Post
                              Money is a better incentive for Exalts than a lot of people in the fanbase are willing to admit.
                              Eeeeeehhhhhhh.

                              Not every Exalt is going to have every Charm. But glancing down Deeb Resistance and it's like "you don't have to eat, sleep or rest... and breathing is kinda semi-optional. Diseases can't kill you and you heal really quick."

                              Money is a great motivator for anyone.

                              But being Exalted really removes the "stick". It's like having UBI. You work for money because money can get you nice things... but you really don't have to work just to survive.

                              "Work for me and live like a king! Every comfort and luxury will be yours!"

                              Eh. Work? I don't know man... I had a pork bun last week, I'm good. I think I'd just rather, you know, paint these sunflowers or whatever. What's the job anyway?

                              "Risk your life for me in glorious warfare! Then be an integral part of the schemes and machinations of court, where desperate nobles will-"

                              Pass.


                              Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Lioness View Post
                                Money is a better incentive for Exalts than a lot of people in the fanbase are willing to admit.

                                True, for some a life of luxury for service is more convenient than all the work and strife that goes into rulership and its maintenance.

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