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The feasibility of Threshold Outcastes joining Celestials

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  • #31
    Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
    Not every Exalt is going to have every Charm. But glancing down Deeb Resistance and it's like "you don't have to eat, sleep or rest... and breathing is kinda semi-optional. Diseases can't kill you and you heal really quick."
    Ignoring penalties from not having something is not the same as not needing it. The Dragon-Blooded using Uneating Earth Meditation is still hungry, it just happens below the level of resolution the system employs, and if he goes long enough without eating, he'll still die from it.

    ​And moreover, not every Exalt has the mentality of "if it isn't significant enough to give me bonuses or penalties I'll just ignore it." People like things; it's a very human thing to do.

    Originally posted by JohnDoe244
    It's like having UBI. You work for money because money can get you nice things... but you really don't have to work just to survive.
    It really isn't like implementing Universal Basic Income.
    Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 09-14-2020, 10:30 AM.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Accelerator View Post
      I've always wondered about that.

      Just how much money is an Exalted worth, anyway?
      Depends on who the exalt is and what you’re trying to get them to do. Getting a wealthy guild merchant to come with you and negotiate a contract for you might need a bar of silver. Wealthy nobles have more money but they also need more money, according to the corebook anyway if you spend less than half your income on luxuries for yourself through the year you’re in danger of making yourself a social pariah. You keep coming to the ball in the same ratty outfit you’ve worn for the last three balls, and it wasn’t even in fashion the first time!

      If you’re buying a cabin on a ship across the sea with an exalted captain you might need a handful of dinars, which equates to the yearly gross income of one or two commoner households.

      Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
      I think I'd just rather, you know, paint these sunflowers or whatever.
      Sure but what paint are you using for the yellow on those flowers? Yellow ochre? That’s okay, but what you want, what you really need, is cadmium yellow. That’s a yellow so bright and beautiful you’ll swear you see the sun itself in your painting. Unfortunately the materials for it are mined in the deep forest of the south east, and only refined by expert craftsmen.

      You’re an exalt, you could probably go get it yourself and learn how to make it. But that sky? You want Cobalt blue, or perhaps Lapis Lazuli, and that’s something you need to mine for in the West. That costs money to buy a ship, pay an experienced crew and so on, not t mention months/years of your life just to get two colours. Or you could do a job for me, get it done in a week, and have enough money for dozens of paintings with the most exquisite paints in the world.


      Edit: I should also say that, obviously, if the character in question is an ascetic hermit who doesn’t care about painting, or sculptures, or exotic foods, or a house with a nice view and a soft bed, or any such thing, they’re going to be hard/impossible to sway with cash. I think they’re more the exception though.
      Last edited by DrLoveMonkey; 09-14-2020, 10:55 AM.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
        Sure but what paint are you using
        What kind of a Craftsman needs tools?

        Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
        Or you could do a job for me, get it done in a week, and have enough money for dozens of paintings with the most exquisite paints in the world.
        Sure, but I don't think this makes the point Lioness was making.

        I'm Exalted. I can do any number of things to make money. I can probably sell my pencil sketches for enough money to buy fine paint. But say that I can't...

        I can do a job for you, and get paid handsomely. I now don't need to work for you (or anyone else) for at least a couple of months (or until I want to work again).

        If you're a Solar trying to buy yourself an Exalted Retainer... you're buying me for one month in the year, maybe, if I don't have a better offer.

        Why would I want to be your bodyguard full time for a stipend, if I can assassinate one warlord a year to meet my expenses?

        "But John, we're not talking about meeting expenses, we're talking about being rich!"

        Sure... but I could, like, sell a kidney to be rich. But I don't because I value my kidney more than being rich. Likewise, my super powered elemental bodhivista could get rich by fighting Wyld Spawned monstrosities for the local Guild Factor... but she also values her kidneys more.

        I think that if you want to form a lasting alliance with one of the Exalted, paying them is one way to do it, but it's not the best way.

        Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
        The Dragon-Blooded using Uneating Earth Meditation is still hungry
        Is she? Agree to disagree.
        Last edited by JohnDoe244; 09-14-2020, 02:10 PM.


        Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
          What kind of a Craftsman needs tools?
          CNNT is great, but it specifically does not replace ingredients, just the workshop and tools. You don’t need an easel, or fine brushes, but you need canvass and you need paint. You also need a place to store your paintings, since keeping them outside or in a shack is a good way to have them destroyed by moisture. You also want this place to be secure, unless you don’t mind any common mortal thief coming around and nabbing enough of your work to get crazy rich. Which means at least a secure building, better one that’s inhabited 24/7, even better one that’s inhabited by loyal guards 24/7.

          Now your monthly expenses are starting to pile up, especially if you don’t want to be a social pariah and actually hang out with the other amazing painters and sculptors in the world. Maybe your PC wants to be a social pariah, but most actual people won’t. Especially if some of them rival your skill and you want to collaborate, or if you blow them away and want to rub their face in it.

          Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
          Why would I want to be your bodyguard full time for a stipend, if I can assassinate one warlord a year to meet my expenses?
          Well maybe being a bodyguard is a pretty cushy job with a hell of a good stipend and a good way for you to gain a solid reputation with connections, and warlord assassination is dangerous as fuck, really inconsistent, and likely to gain you some enemies.

          I’m not suggesting that every exalt is easily bought with cash, but they don’t have to be. You can be Dante from Devil May Cry. You can ABSOLUTELY be Dante, who sits around doing nothing until the electric company shuts off his power, and his toilets fill up, and then he goes and takes a job. I’m just saying there’s going to be people out there who would also be pretty cool with getting crazy rich off hunting monsters more regularly than that. Like, “I have three estates that are all immaculately manicured and each staffed with their own harem“ kind of rich. Which is the kind of rich that requires a very regular income of lots of money dedicated to upkeep.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
            I think Frostav's intentions and leanings here have been pretty good, but I do see in this thread a shadow of the old attitude of "Terrestrials outside of the Realm will fall under the influence of Solars by default", which I find distasteful.
            I believe this perception isn't so much as outcastes being perceived as dupes, so much as the Realm and Lookshy being perceived as frankly not worth the sheer effort to attempt such things with. Because unless they're PC's that are joining the party or Chargen Ally dots, the most likely perceived results are.

            1. Be ignored (Spending willpower if needed) and attacked because the word of an Anathema is worth less then empty air.
            2. Be betrayed by the dragonblooded as soon as they get what they wish for more or less immediately afterwards. With the additions of them being able to brag about it to their peers that they both fooled and then killed the Anathema.
            3. Even on the extremely small chance you can get a DB on your side, it's really likely it was a Iselsi wyld hunt trap since the beginning.

            So for many it's not so much as outcaste being dupes, it's outcaste are all that's realistically available for DB allies.

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            • #36
              Part of the balance about being the most powerful among the exalted is that you’re in the worst starting position of any exalt, and have the worst limit break. As long as that is preserved, I’m good with it. If you’re going to make large portions of Creation kind of ambivalent towards anathema, and not have the Dragonblooded nations venture out to Wyld Hunt that far, then it would be best if the disparity in power and limit break were brought more into line as well.

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              • #37
                I never said money was the best way, just that it's better than the fanbase was willing to admit.

                The fact we go right to a hypothetical outcaste deciding to learn resistance charms in a bid to transcend their earthly needs rather than soil themselves by doing work in exchange for payment is illustrative of the attitudes I'm talking about.


                Onyx Path Forum Moderator
                Please spare a thought for updating the Exalted wiki.

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                • #38
                  Manacle and Coin, for my money still the best economic resource for Exalted (and better than many systems even get), says that an Exalted guard (presumably combat competent, if not amazing) costs res 4. And the guild pays it happily, at least on dangerous routes, because Exalts can solve otherwise caravan crushing problems. If a slave Exalts, the guild will give you Res 3 (or 4 if must) to let bygones be bygones. And help you invest it. So that's your baseline for what Exalted help costs.

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                  • #39
                    *raises a hand*

                    Question. If an outcaste is working for you for money... doesn't that cause lots of problems when your opponent is literally the Realm? Each House is literally the equivalent of a nation state with a number of Dragonblooded and a lot of resources, infrastructure, and whatnot. If a DB is working for money instead of 'fuck the realm', then there's the distinct chance the realm just buys out their contracts and you're left with nothing.
                    Last edited by Accelerator; 09-14-2020, 07:30 PM.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Accelerator View Post
                      *raises a hand*

                      Question. If an outcaste is working for you for money... doesn't that cause lots of problems when your opponent is literally the Realm? Each House is literally tdhe equivalent of a nation state with a number of Dragonblooded and a lot of resources, infrastructure, and whatnot. If a DB is working for money instead of 'fuck the realm', then there's the distinct chance the realm just buys out their contracts and you're left with nothing.
                      I understood the situation outlined in the OP to be that the presence of the outcastes was to lend legitimacy and provide plausible deniability for displays of superhuman ability.

                      If the Realm is actively trying to snap up their contacts then this Solar is already in the fight they were trying to avoid by hiring them.


                      Onyx Path Forum Moderator
                      Please spare a thought for updating the Exalted wiki.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Accelerator View Post
                        Question. If an outcaste is working for you for money... doesn't that cause lots of problems when your opponent is literally the Realm? Each House is literally tdhe equivalent of a nation state with a number of Dragonblooded and a lot of resources, infrastructure, and whatnot. If a DB is working for money instead of 'fuck the realm', then there's the distinct chance the realm just buys out their contracts and you're left with nothing.
                        Not everyone in the Threshold is necessarily locked in war with the Realm at all times. There's lots of other players out there that you might be fighting against. You might need protection against fairies, undead, demons, other outcaste exalted, exigent exalted, and even mortals. If there's a big, powerful mortal-run kingdom next to your smaller one, you might be in trouble, even if you have an exalt.

                        Although even fighting the Realm if you're going to be a mercenary with your Exalted powers, you need to be very careful about switching sides for a better offer. Mercenaries need a reputation for not doing that or else nobody will hire you. If you just decide to turn traitor and full on join the Realm that's a bit different, but if you wanted to join the Realm why didn't you just do that years ago when you exalted?

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Accelerator View Post
                          *raises a hand*

                          Question. If an outcaste is working for you for money... doesn't that cause lots of problems when your opponent is literally the Realm? Each House is literally tdhe equivalent of a nation state with a number of Dragonblooded and a lot of resources, infrastructure, and whatnot. If a DB is working for money instead of 'fuck the realm', then there's the distinct chance the realm just buys out their contracts and you're left with nothing.
                          Exactly.

                          It's not even, neccessarily, an antagonistic thing either. Cadet Houses exist, and there's not really any Dragon-Blooded anywhere who think "no, no, it's cool to have a hostile superpower with a mysterious bank-roller -- we don't want any more Dragon-Blooded in our gens, thank you very much".

                          Plus, you know, the Guild actively hires the Exalted. And every other two-bit kingdom with two dinahs to rub together.

                          "Work for me, I can pay you!"

                          Sure, but, uh, they pay more.

                          "Fuck the Realm!" strikes me as being a far more stable basis for an alliance.

                          Or... you know... literally anything else but money. Maybe you have a warstrider that you let your Terrestrials work on with you. Or you're teaching them priceless lost sorcery, or martial arts, or just general history. Some kind of idealogical basis for alliance. Maybe a blood tie. Maybe you're all Communists. Fellow wyld mutants. Something.

                          And sure, toss money on top of that (pork buns don't come free), and you've got a healthy business relationship. Paying your bodyguard just makes sense. But have something (anything) beyond "it's a living" as the reason why your super-powered demigods are on your side.

                          Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

                          Not everyone in the Threshold is necessarily locked in war with the Realm at all times.
                          Sure, but "Fuck the Icewalkers" is just as good a reason to side with a Solar. Some political goal: whether it's free Thorns, or planting redwoods in Linowan, or cleansing Marma's Fell, or defending Gem, or... anything.

                          Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
                          you need to be very careful about switching sides for a better offer. Mercenaries need a reputation for not doing that or else nobody will hire you [...] if you wanted to join the Realm why didn't you just do that years ago when you exalted?
                          Right. But it's only you and Lioness suggesting that these DBs be mercenaries for hire?

                          Accelerator and I are saying it makes a lot more sense if they're NOT mercenaries for hire. We're the ones suggesting that these people not be motivated by money, and that they have a good reason for not running away to join the Realm when they first Exalted.

                          So... why didn't your mercenaries run away to join the Realm when they first Exalted?

                          Originally posted by Lioness View Post
                          I never said money was the best way, just that it's better than the fanbase was willing to admit.

                          The fact we go right to a hypothetical outcaste deciding to learn resistance charms in a bid to transcend their earthly needs rather than soil themselves by doing work in exchange for payment is illustrative of the attitudes I'm talking about.
                          It's not about refusing to work in exchange for payment.

                          It's just... well... pick literally any DB charm tree. A DB can make money doing that. Why do they need your Anathema's money instead of doing whatever it is they're good at for literally anyone else who isn't a demon walking around in human skin?

                          Yes, that DB with seven Melee charms needs to work to make money. But why are they working for you when just about any state in Creation would happy pay them a king's ransom to work for them. Or they could turn to banditry. And do you really want allies who are only working for you because you pay them?

                          And is paying them really going to stop them usurping you?

                          Payment is great. Please pay the people who work for you. In my first post, I literally wrote: "Money is a great motivator for anyone". I'll happily admit that paying people is generally a great way to get them to do what you want. Happily.

                          But seriously, give your DBs a reason to be loyal beyond money: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITgKLIWs5xY
                          Last edited by JohnDoe244; 09-14-2020, 07:57 PM.


                          Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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                          • #43
                            To be frank, at some point of power, if a DB is worth hiring, he's probably at the stage where he can not only name his price, but he can probably make more money working on his own. Exalted rapidly reach the point where money is an afterthought, and trade is done in things like sorcery, artifacts, and favours.

                            Especially when the person hiring them is someone who is viewed as a demon by the major religion.

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                            • #44
                              Also, there's the chance that if your Outcastes are your public face, no one really realizes when they band together and stab you to death, and take over your operations.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Accelerator View Post
                                To be frank, at some point of power, if a DB is worth hiring, he's probably at the stage where he can not only name his price, but he can probably make more money working on his own. Exalted rapidly reach the point where money is an afterthought, and trade is done in things like sorcery, artifacts, and favours.

                                Especially when the person hiring them is someone who is viewed as a demon by the major religion.
                                See, I disagree with this. (Not the demon part -- that's spot on.)

                                The average Dynast is heavily in debt, and only Resources 3.

                                "Name your price?"
                                "One hundred BILLION dinahs!" *pinky finger to mouth*

                                You need customers rich enough to pay your fee. And if you're self employed you have expenses. And risks. Heck, we could probably all make more money by becoming self employed, but we're not going to because we want certainty about our next paycheck. Same for the Exalted.

                                Dragon-Blooded need money. And not just for magic, but for fancy parties and food and clothes.

                                But I agree completely that Dragon-Blooded have plenty of options as to where they can get money from. (And "hurr durr Solars roll 21 dice" is not a convincing reason as to why DBs would agree to work for them.)

                                Originally posted by Accelerator View Post
                                Also, there's the chance that if your Outcastes are your public face, no one really realizes when they band together and stab you to death, and take over your operations.
                                Again, bingo.

                                That's what started this tangent off. Baaldam asked what's to stop the Deebs taking over and Lioness said to pay them. (Which is fine, please pay the specailists you hire to do jobs for you.)
                                Last edited by JohnDoe244; 09-14-2020, 08:21 PM.


                                Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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