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  • #46
    Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

    Mind, a lot of demons and monsters aren't super durable once somebody gets past them being immaterial. In any case, Solar Melee gets several Charms specifically to enhance attacks against creatures of darkness, so it's still kind of the go-to combat Ability for that kind of fighter, assuming he's not really dependent on cutting the tops off of hills or something.
    a Solar can do a lot to get past even things like Legendary Size with Fire and Stones Strike, but he would generally need some sort of backup, as Demons can get significantly tanky just through their loads of soak, and I don't rate the chances of cutting through a demon in any reasonable time with an improvised light weapon unless their defense is so shot he can get dozens of extra successes, while a medium artifact with balanced + his Strength 5 Fire and Stones Strike will let him shatter Legendary Size on even a glancing shot, similar to his attack against the Dragon.

    But at the same time Shang has shown a willingness to use real weapons when confronted with threats of sufficient magnitude and most of his use of a sword is against distinctly mortal individuals, where he wouldn't have to worry about 20+ soak and can get by on the weight of Excellent Strike, Fire and Stones Strike, and Peony Blossom, with stuff like Rising Sun Slash + Perfect Strike Discipline for those season ending singular strikes where he actually uses his techniques.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
      I also want to note that I've read some transcripts of First Edition writers offering their own ideas of Essence 6+, and it was generally things like "do something a lower Charm does, but without having to pay for it for a scene", which I find several issues with.
      Do recall that in earlier editions you could only use one Charm per round. If you used Fire and Stones Strike, that was it -- you couldn't also use Excellent Strike (which was the Excellency). Or Dipping Swallow Defence. And there was no 5m/round mote regen.

      A scene long Fire and Stones Strike might sound problematic from the mindset of "free motes", but it represented a truly significant power bump for Elder Exalts without 2E-ing the scope of what Elders could do. I think that's very much in line with 3E's "I'm now an owl indefinitely" approach.

      (Under the 3E paradigm, a similiar effect would be taking a lower Essence Simple Charm and making it Reflexive.)
      Last edited by JohnDoe244; 10-27-2020, 01:36 PM.


      Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by MrFamiliar View Post
        There was an old 1CD on the wiki written by Vance back before he was famous, and it haunts me to this day not having saved a copy.
        What's it like?

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Accelerator View Post

          What's it like?
          It was a demon of The Ebon Dragon. It possessed a mortal and gave them a golden anima and the ability to use spirit charms to summon weapons (Essence Bite), armour and perform other feats. But it also ate away at their Virtues I think, which led to them becoming insatiable golden monsters, thus turning people against the real returning Solars by tricking mortals into believing that golden heroes are all anathema in the end.


          .

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          • #50
            Originally posted by MrFamiliar View Post

            It was a demon of The Ebon Dragon. It possessed a mortal and gave them a golden anima and the ability to use spirit charms to summon weapons (Essence Bite), armour and perform other feats. But it also ate away at their Virtues I think, which led to them becoming insatiable golden monsters, thus turning people against the real returning Solars by tricking mortals into believing that golden heroes are all anathema in the end.
            Cool. I think I can make one like that.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

              Ohhhhh... This is an area where I feel a need to try and gently suggest that it's possible for there to be criticisms that are sincerely held but maybe... lacking in perspective. And to plead for such a suggestion not being regarded as a kind of attack.

              Because I do think there are issues with a suggestion that the book is lacking because it doesn't put sufficiently impressive things off into the far future of character play or write from the outset for the sort of play experience that Second Edition didn't develop for years.



              Okay a penalty is technically distinct from a dice trick, but it's still in the same area of manipulating the game system. If a hypothetical person was ride-or-die on that distinction, that would be the kind of person I would ask to reflect on how reasonable that critique was.



              I mean, we've still got Blazing Solar Bolt. Has familiarity bred contempt for the power to shoot a blaze of shearing light from one's weapon (which mechanically plays out as a special form of decisive attack that can be fairly powerful)?

              Do you have any opinions on Immortal Blade Triumphant, i.e. the Charm that allows one to transfer anima into the weapon to make it impossible to disarm and convert damage dice into automatic successes (or add them on top of the rolled damage if the anima is expended into the attack)?

              Mind, I think Heaven Sword Flash and Circle of Bright Reaving are not merely fairly powerful mechanically, they make for a pretty compelling image if one imagines how that sword has to flash about striking multiple people in an instant. Sure it's different from Brawl's upper end, but do we not want distinctions between the combat Abilities?



              I second Flare's question as to what this character does that is outside the range of published Solar Charms. I feel as though most fictional depictions of high end sword fighting have a focus on speed and precision directed at an opponent.

              My personal issue with World-Scarring Solar Glory was always the feeling that demolitions felt like a really weird place for sword fighting to develop up into. It's honestly the kind of thing that I always felt illustrated some of the distinct limitations of trying to create high Essence spaces for many of these Abilities to inhabit.

              I also want to note that I've read some transcripts of First Edition writers offering their own ideas of Essence 6+, and it was generally things like "do something a lower Charm does, but without having to pay for it for a scene", which I find several issues with.
              I'm all in favor of sufficiently impressive things being available at earlier levels of essence, what I'm mainly not in favor is the overall scope and threshold of those feats being lowered for no apparent reason. There is no feasible way to, say, cover several miles in sword attacks that automatically miss allies and inflict aggravated damage on Creatures of Darkness. Nor is there a mechanism for inflicting as many or as few levels of damage as you would like with sufficient successes.

              Re: penalty, I think it's a wholly reasonable critique. Most if not all of the actions in the game can be reduced to "manipulating the game system" if we wanted to get that abstract, one of the issues to me is variety and applicability if nothing else. Though I would also point out that sometimes regardless of the mechanical effect, having a barrier of conceptual swords emanating from your prowess at swordsmanship, the visual provided by the charm, is simply more fun for a lot of players than "I add successes to my damage roll, cutting the Dragonblooded officer somewhat more than I would have already"

              Blazing Solar Bolt is an odd example to pick for me, because while it's nice to be able to shoot bolts of light from swords it seems odd to imply that is the only supernatural feat going beyond mere prowess at swordsmanwhip that a demigod swordsman should be capable of, or that the form the charm takes in 3e reflects it's potency and therefore applicability in 2e. Also it's a much bigger investment in 3e than in 2e (where it could be attained 3 charms in) on top of being 1/scene unless a 7+ initiative decisive attack is landed and then 12+ Initiative is built up. Worst of all it doesn't even span to as far as the Solar can effectively see unless you're willing to spend anima on it.

              My opinion on Immortal Blade Triumphant in 3e is that within the context of the system a charm that costs 10 motes, a willpower and your simple action in exchange for converting (essence) damage into automatic successes is not very useful until you are already at high essence and have therefore had the opportunity to buy better Melee charms. Especially since it is gated behind Glorious Solar Saber which is not, in my experience at least, very useful in this edition. Which is a shame, because it does have a nice visual effect. With regards to it's incarnation in 2e I would say that while still somewhat cumbersome, it's increase to DV when parrying made it more useful.

              I'm all for distinctions between combat Abilities, what I'm also all for is for them to be roughly comparable in terms of threat. One thing I've noticed in 3e is that the mechanics of attacking a Legendary Size foe favor Brawl, which explicitly has Dragon Coil Technique or the ombination of Heaven Thunder Hammer+various Athletics charms, relative to melee. As for Heaven Sword Flash and Circle of Bright Reaving to me this is actually a good illustration of why Melee comes across as a lot duller than Brawl. What does HSF do? It cuts people on all sides. That's it. It's the most basic possible move imaginable for an wuxia swordsman, you see them use it on the army of mooks that thinks dogpiling will work wonders. What does CoBR do? It cuts everyone on all sides again if you killed even one of it. And it only does withering damage. If you're lucky, you can also use HSF again. And that's it. This mental image does not evoke an awe-inspiring feat of legend to me, it evokes a blender. Speed and precision are important and Melee does do it quite well in some charms, but I feel that's all it does-and Circle of Bright Reaving is an E5 charm. The ostensible pinncacle of raw power in 3e. And it does not seem like an ability I could envision killing a Primordial with. I suppose you could argue it is a charm that could build up enough Initiative by killing the Primordials' devas when they attempt to dogpile the Solar, but the ubiquity of swift cuts across fiction makes it difficult for me to feel impressed by it.

              Well, I think I had the exact opposite issue because I liked World-Scarring Solar Glory because I felt it helped make Exalted unique from a lot of other settings in showing how crazy and over the top swordfighting could develop into in Creation. And as for what you said about First Edition writers I'm not one of those people who think any one edition of Exalted did absolutely everything right and had a comprehensive solution to essence tiering, so I too find that idea bad.

              Flare I feel the simple fact that there is no "fight monsters and legendary heroes with a mere stick" charm defeats the point of further analysis here for the purposes of using an analogy for a formerly pseudo-viable feat of Solar prowess. It would be me like saying, in a hypothetical Star Wars movie where lightsabers were retconned and it was pretended that Darth Vader did all his fighting without lightsabers, other than the lack of lightsabers what I would find lacking in the depiction of the Sith in Star Wars: The Pugillism Continues.

              Though if I had to point at a specific example, at one point in Lang's movie Shang whips up a screen of dust that gives the party enough time to escape with his "sword".

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              • #52
                Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                Do recall that in earlier editions you could only use one Charm per round. If you used Fire and Stones Strike, that was it -- you couldn't also use Excellent Strike (which was the Excellency). Or Dipping Swallow Defence. And there was no 5m/round mote regen.

                A scene long Fire and Stones Strike might sound problematic from the mindset of "free motes", but it represented a truly significant power bump for Elder Exalts without 2E-ing the scope of what Elders could do. I think that's very much in line with 3E's "I'm now an owl indefinitely" approach.

                (Under the 3E paradigm, a similiar effect would be taking a lower Essence Simple Charm and making it Reflexive.)
                I severely dislike the fact that "I'm now an owl indefinitely" is currently considered an E6 effect. It does not feel like a significant power bump for Elder Exalts in any way shape or form.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Organ Boy View Post

                  I feel the simple fact that there is no "fight monsters and legendary heroes with a mere stick" charm defeats the point of further analysis here for the purposes of using an analogy for a formerly pseudo-viable feat of Solar prowess. It would be me like saying, in a hypothetical Star Wars movie where lightsabers were retconned and it was pretended that Darth Vader did all his fighting without lightsabers, other than the lack of lightsabers what I would find lacking in the depiction of the Sith in Star Wars: The Pugillism Continues.

                  Though if I had to point at a specific example, at one point in Lang's movie Shang whips up a screen of dust that gives the party enough time to escape with his "sword".
                  Except you can do so, and I think your analogy is weak. Arguably you don't even need a charm like that, it's very air-breathing mermaid.

                  A suitably powerful Solar like Shang absolutely can fight weaker opponents with just a stick. It's just that it takes more effort then if he was using a real sword. Which is even said in the context of the show itself, that Shang has to expend significantly more effort to use his sword then he should have to, to the point that the people who saw him fight thought he was a monk who had no idea how to use a sword.

                  That's exactly the same thing that would happen were a Solar to fight with a stick as a sword; they would be forced to use extra Essence to compete, which they could overcome against weaker opponents by virtue of their higher stats and dicepools, but against equally threatening opponents, they would start to be at a disadvantage and would require assistance or to truly start treating their foes as a threat, via using real weapons. An individual who saw a Solar Swordsman struggling with a Dragonblooded would likely assume he's not much of a Swordsman, and could be a Zenith or Eclipse, or if he shows his caste mark, that he's a General or a Brawler, not a Swordsman.

                  Both seasons have ended using one of those two; when a Third Circle appeared in the end of the first season, Shang immediately broke out an actual Artifact and used it to clobber the opponent. In the second season, when facing someone close to his equal, Shang needed to rely on his friends because his opponent was close enough to his strength that his lack of sword had become a disadvantage, if he had used a real sword, it's likely he would have been able to win on his own merits- but it's not clear, since I know Urobuchi has suggested that Di Kong might have actually won their fight if he had given up on the Seven Blasphemous Deaths, but I don't know if that means if Shang had also been using a real sword or not.

                  As for the other thing, what you're looking for is the gambit system, allowing you to cover such specific interactions as 'I'm going to blind my foes while we try to escape', because otherwise what you get is 'I want to do *cool thing*', and the ST has to ask 'Do you have *charm that lets you specifically do cool thing*', which is never a fun proposition to deal with, particularly for things like that, which may only come up once or twice in the entirety of the game, unless your character concept is 'the guy who summons dust clouds so we can run away', in which case I mean, sure, write some charms so you can become better at doing that one thing.

                  Also to clarify, a Solar Melee user can break Legendary Size with a Medium Artifact Sword and a fully powered Fire and Stones strike, because it would get to 11 post-soak damage and thus allow them to crash the creature with their basic attack.
                  Last edited by Flare; 10-28-2020, 11:24 PM.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Organ Boy View Post
                    What does HSF do? It cuts people on all sides. That's it. It's the most basic possible move imaginable for an wuxia swordsman, you see them use it on the army of mooks that thinks dogpiling will work wonders. What does CoBR do? It cuts everyone on all sides again if you killed even one of it. And it only does withering damage. If you're lucky, you can also use HSF again.
                    I think you're really underestimating that last sentence. Remember, if you crash someone and Heaven Sword Flash again, that second Heaven Sword Flash could kill someone and give you a second Circle of Bright Reaving, which could crash someone and give you a third Heaven Sword Flash...

                    Originally posted by Organ Boy View Post
                    I severely dislike the fact that "I'm now an owl indefinitely" is currently considered an E6 effect. It does not feel like a significant power bump for Elder Exalts in any way shape or form.
                    A fifth significant power bump is explicitly no longer the point of Essence 6 Charms, but nonetheless I think you'll find Ma-Ha's more to your liking.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Organ Boy View Post

                      I severely dislike the fact that "I'm now an owl indefinitely" is currently considered an E6 effect. It does not feel like a significant power bump for Elder Exalts in any way shape or form.
                      I think you've misinterpreted what I've said here.

                      In previous editions Essence 6+ was meant to be a power bump.

                      In 3E Essence 6+ is about tailoring your existing power to your personal legend.

                      Being an owl indefinitely is not meant to be a power bump.
                      Getting a free Charm for a scene is.

                      I was just explaining why a free Charm for a scene was a suitable elder power for 1E and suggesting what a "Essence 6+ brings legendary power" could look like in 3E if you adopted the 1E paradigm.

                      Personally, I like the idea of 5 being the top end of power. And I like Supernal. But I prefer this 1E approach to 2E's.

                      I explicitly don't like "Batman can beat Iron Man!" The Exalted were powerful enough to conquer the world of Exalted. They don't need to beat the hypothetical gods of your most hated fandom. They need to work in their own world.

                      "You must have 100 years of downtime and a bunch of free XP before you can play." Is not working in their own world. Nor is "the biggest threat to your character canonically can't actually harm them mechanically".

                      3E fixes both of those.
                      Last edited by JohnDoe244; 10-29-2020, 05:18 AM.


                      Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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                      • #56
                        A little thread derail is fine but I think that this has gotten way off the original subject.


                        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                        • #57
                          Question:

                          Does Paradox now posses the saved Exalted Wiki & WW Forum?

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Daredevil View Post
                            Question:

                            Does Paradox now posses the saved Exalted Wiki & WW Forum?
                            I don't think so. There was an independent attempt to backup the forum which was incomplete due to how often it was going down by the end of things.


                            Onyx Path Forum Moderator
                            Please spare a thought for updating the Exalted wiki.

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                            • #59
                              True, but the company at the time kept claiming they had the original data for the Wiki stored & would bring it back up.

                              I am curious if the data for both the wiki & Forum survives & if it has been transferred to Paradox Interactive after their purchase of WW from CCP, or if CCP might still be in possession of it.

                              If so, perhaps there is a way to give the holder a monetary reason to restore it for archival purposes.

                              I am curious how much it would cost to do so, but we would need to know if anyone even has it in their possession before that could be discussed.

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                              • #60
                                So, can someone more tech savvy explain why one of those websites like wayback machine or something I've heard of that are supposed to let you see dead websites or previous versions of changed websites can't let you see the old forums?
                                Last edited by Mizu; 10-30-2020, 04:17 PM.


                                Exalted Whose Name is Carved in Leaves of Jade

                                Senator of the Greater Chamber

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