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  • #76
    Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

    IPP has a lot of that problem, especially when doing crossover stuff. Anyone who has the ability to turn off the nuclear forces holding your atoms together, or age you billions of years, or turn your flesh to stone just gets turned off by IPP with no additional effort.
    I know I might get flack

    But I like this.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Accelerator View Post
      I know I might get flack

      But I like this.
      I'd be more okay with it if it either had some kind of proportonality to it. Like if a Solar wanted to fistfight Goku that's a fight he very well may lose. In the Freiza arc he could blow up a planet and there's been a half dozen story arcs since then where he's gotten more powerful each time, sometimes drastically more powerful.

      Meaning if he fired a full power kamehameha at Creation everyone without a PD and the subsequent ability to live in an airless hellscape is dead, along with basically the setting. You're actually going to have to put in some effort to beat Super Saiyan Blue Goku in a fight. Realistically SSJ Blue Goku is comparatively more powerful than even the Unconquered Sun who I don't think could quite so easily destroy all of Creation*.

      If your powers could in any way be construed as a shaping effect though? There's a 3m charm that lasts 24 hours and negates it. It's just kind of a weird mismatch where a foe that can level a hundred truck-busting punches at you in a second is deadly as fuck, but a blast of destabilizing radiation, or time shenanigans, or transmutation magic, or whatever is a joke.


      *note here that it actually works in the setting of Dragonball, because the Dragonballs can just wish planets populations back and also there's a lot more than just Earth, and the only people who matter on Earth are the dozen main characters. There's a reason why the Death Star blows up planets but the Five Metal Shrike and Directional Titans only blow up cities.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

        I'd be more okay with it if it either had some kind of proportonality to it. Like if a Solar wanted to fistfight Goku that's a fight he very well may lose. In the Freiza arc he could blow up a planet and there's been a half dozen story arcs since then where he's gotten more powerful each time, sometimes drastically more powerful.

        Meaning if he fired a full power kamehameha at Creation everyone without a PD and the subsequent ability to live in an airless hellscape is dead, along with basically the setting. You're actually going to have to put in some effort to beat Super Saiyan Blue Goku in a fight. Realistically SSJ Blue Goku is comparatively more powerful than even the Unconquered Sun who I don't think could quite so easily destroy all of Creation*.

        If your powers could in any way be construed as a shaping effect though? There's a 3m charm that lasts 24 hours and negates it. It's just kind of a weird mismatch where a foe that can level a hundred truck-busting punches at you in a second is deadly as fuck, but a blast of destabilizing radiation, or time shenanigans, or transmutation magic, or whatever is a joke.


        *note here that it actually works in the setting of Dragonball, because the Dragonballs can just wish planets populations back and also there's a lot more than just Earth, and the only people who matter on Earth are the dozen main characters. There's a reason why the Death Star blows up planets but the Five Metal Shrike and Directional Titans only blow up cities.
        OH no, I totally agree. Maybe there can be some middle ground.

        I just don't like the concept where there's that really fucked up bullshit that shouldn't be possible.

        For example, Dorororo has very dangerous powers that are often gory and take you down with one hit, no save. Some are like the powers to turn your organs into separate parts (without killing you). Others turn you into mushrooms. Others just fuck you over.

        Either way, there are powers in crossovers that just plain 'yeah, you're screwed' or 'I steal your powers'.

        I'm perfectly happy if IPP blocks that. In fact, I love moments like that.

        And yes, I must admit my sin. I used to participate in vs debates.

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        • #79
          ...You know if you want to be cheesy it’d be perfectly reasonable to say that by Exalted standards Goku is a source of recurring uncountable damage, and therefore a single use of Seven Shadow Evasion makes the fight a stalemate until he powers all the way down to two digits. Doesn’t help you hit him back since by the same metric “Flip SSG on and back off” is a perfect defense, but the idea that he can only end the fight through scratch damage (by his standards) is still hilarious.
          Last edited by Sith_Happens; 12-30-2020, 02:03 PM.

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          • #80
            Originally posted by Sith_Happens View Post
            ...You know if you want to be cheesy it’d be perfectly reasonable to say that by Exalted standards Goku is a source of recurring uncountable damage, and therefore a single use of Seven Shadow Evasion makes the fight a stalemate until he powers all the way down to two digits. Doesn’t help you hit him back since by the same metric “Flip SSG on and back off” is a perfect defense, but the idea that he can only end the fight through scratch damage (by his standards) is still hilarious.
            Yeah, and Goku isn't even CLOSE to the craziest stuff, he's just more well known. Look at Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, in the final fight of that series the main character (basically) is squaring off against the big bad, both of them so giant that entire galaxies are floating around them like snowflakes. The MC at that point could have 400 billion star systems hurled at their chest and not only would they not flinch, they might not even realize something just happened.

            Which is to say that TTGL vs Exalted wouldn't shake out like just a fight where the Brawl Supernal suplexes the TTGL team. Even with Nine Aeons Thews you don't want to know how many successes you need to lift an enemy who's fist is over 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ,000,000 kilograms. You might be able to have TTGL vs Exalted, but it's just not going to be Solars beating up the other guys because Solars win martial contests period.

            Of course it goes both ways. Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning with his legendary white steel blade, Dawn, would get smoked by half the Dragonblooded warriors in the Realm, much less an actual Dawn cast Solar. King Peter Pevensie and his blade Rhindon? Nope. Thorin II Oakenshield, son of Thrain, son of Thror, King Under the Mountain, with his blade Orcrist, the goblin-cleaver? Nope, at least not the movie version. Altair Ibn-La'Ahad? loooooool.

            There's a lot of middle ground too, obviously. Dante from Devil May Cry, Korra from the Last Airbender, Faenor and Fingolfin from the Silmarillion, Kenshiro from fist of the North Star.

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            • #81
              Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

              Yeah, and Goku isn't even CLOSE to the craziest stuff, he's just more well known. Look at Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, in the final fight of that series the main character (basically) is squaring off against the big bad, both of them so giant that entire galaxies are floating around them like snowflakes. The MC at that point could have 400 billion star systems hurled at their chest and not only would they not flinch, they might not even realize something just happened.

              Which is to say that TTGL vs Exalted wouldn't shake out like just a fight where the Brawl Supernal suplexes the TTGL team. Even with Nine Aeons Thews you don't want to know how many successes you need to lift an enemy who's fist is over 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ,000,000 kilograms. You might be able to have TTGL vs Exalted, but it's just not going to be Solars beating up the other guys because Solars win martial contests period.
              That fight happened in a form of hyperspace with wholly different laws of physics where thoughts became reality. In Exalted terms, it'd be most similar to the terminal Charm of Border of Kaleidoscopic Logic.

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              • #82
                Maybe the loss wasn't actually that terrible after all...


                I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist;n1431057[spoiler
                  That fight happened in a form of hyperspace with wholly different laws of physics where thoughts became reality. In Exalted terms, it'd be most similar to the terminal Charm of Border of Kaleidoscopic Logic.[/spoiler]
                  I mean, yeah, but the TTGL team also created the whole hyperspace dimension within themselves in order to break out of a labyrinth made of 11th dimensional space. Which is complete bullshit from a writing standpoint, and gibberish from a physics standpoint, but still beyond the scope of what Solars are depicted as being able to do. Even with the craziest of crazy Dreams of the First Age stuff no Solar was ever in danger of wiping out the entire plane of Creation because they missed a punch and hit the ground.

                  Which is just a weird place to be in versus battles wise. Multiple sonic punches? Dangerous as fuck, likely lethal, but if you do win you'll be exhausted by the end. Ability to force crystal growth on your enemy's bones to cut them from the inside out? Might as well not exist, has no effect against IPP, which is effectively a permanent charm effect.

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                    Maybe the loss wasn't actually that terrible after all...
                    It makes the loss even worse.

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                    • #85
                      If anyone wants a copy of the old White Wolf wiki data: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DaZ...ew?usp=sharing
                      You can load it up into Xowa, google that for more info, and go through the old stuff. I can help out if you need help.
                      Also here's the old Fixalted stuff: https://drive.google.com/file/d/10P4...ew?usp=sharing
                      This is really only in old text files, stored as markdown files. I could upload the SQL file that the owner of Fixalted gave me which has the database.
                      If you want a easier to read version: http://web.archive.org/web/201904230...itle=Main_Page
                      Someone could probably go through and remake the wikis from these.

                      I will say, as I've spent most of lockdown going through Exalted's history, we've lost a lot of stuff. The Exalted community used to be massive. Just freaking massive. I think one of the most painful moments for me was when I was on one of the old wikis and there was the resource page linking to other Exalted content. Other than Mr. Gone's page for character sheets, everything was dead. Literally all of it was removed and gone from history.
                      Hell, I don't think you can even download the First Edition Errata anymore.

                      Now, I can say the same stuff has happened to World of Darkness also, as went through the old stuff years ago, where we used to have so much stuff constantly being made online for everyone to play with. Now it's almost all gone. Hell, some of the old stuff is barely hanging on by a thread. It could just up and disappear from the internet.

                      We probably need some kinda archive group to go through and save some of the history before the host dies of old age or something and we lose the sites. That happened to a couple VtM sites also. I try to not delete the stuff in my drive, but as no one has home servers much anymore, that content disappears at the whims of google.


                      Check out my Sorcerer 20th homebrew and my update to Highlander: the Gathering for 20th Anniversary edition.

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
                        Which is just a weird place to be in versus battles wise. Multiple sonic punches? Dangerous as fuck, likely lethal, but if you do win you'll be exhausted by the end. Ability to force crystal growth on your enemy's bones to cut them from the inside out? Might as well not exist, has no effect against IPP, which is effectively a permanent charm effect.
                        Actually, a reread of the Third Edition version of Integrity-Protecting Prana shows this to not be the case.

                        While Integrity-Protecting Prana protects the Solar and her possessions from being subject to environmental twisting powers, it does not allow her to ignore Wyld phenomena. She can still be torn apart by Wyld-spawned ravenous cyclones of burning teeth and giant hundred-armed mantises. This Charm also does not defend against attacks that might warp her mind or body directly, such as the Wyld-Mind Strike of the Thousand Venoms Mistress, or fiat-level changes to her existence caused by alterations to the Loom of Fate.
                        I think it's in basically the same boat as how system and Charms draw a distinction between sources of environmental damage and deliberate attacks (even if some offensive powers resolve themselves as environmental damage).


                        I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                        Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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                        • #87
                          ... Why would we be discussing 3E mechanics on the old White Wolf forum?


                          Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                            I think it's in basically the same boat as how system and Charms draw a distinction between sources of environmental damage and deliberate attacks (even if some offensive powers resolve themselves as environmental damage).
                            Yeah basically.

                            Like, imagine this. There's another RPG system where the primary form of combat resolution is something called Soul Combat. Everyone who matters at all in the setting can engage in it, and it's just like a battle of wills when you meet eachother, nothing physical involved. It's also highly effective, to the point where if somebody engaged you in physical combat you'd just have to respond by engaging them in soul combat and either destroy them because they were a mook who thought swords could hurt you, or they aren't a mook and would need soul combat to defend themselves.

                            Since this is the case, there's a really cheap entry level talent to just immunize yourself against physical harm anyway, any physical attack is turned aside before it strikes you regardless of power or scope. There's even a major villain in the default setting who had that talent and a mountain sized meteor dropped on them. They're fine, they live under it now, it was only heat and mass, not a soul meteor, and it's actually a boon because now you need to astral project just to go get them.

                            Now cross that with Exalted. No, Invincible Fury of the Dawn doesn't do anything, I don't care that it's a hammer that weighs as much as a VW beetle swinging faster than the eye can see, soul sensei aren't affected by physical blows, not even ones that wipe out a city. Even GET wouldn't work as for one they're not spirits and GET doesn't let you wound a mortal's soul, and for another the attacks specifically do not hit due to Transcend the Blade and Hammer and GET only triggers on a successful hit. As per 2e rules Perfect Defense beats Perfect Attack so even one of those fails against TtBaH. Fighting soul sensei via Exalted means requires things like soulbreaker orbs and the sensei have huge long talent trees all about resisting, reflecting, and avoiding those kind of attacks so good luck.

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                              ... Why would we be discussing 3E mechanics on the old White Wolf forum?
                              Because vs battles infests everything. Even here.

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

                                Yeah basically.

                                Like, imagine this. There's another RPG system where the primary form of combat resolution is something called Soul Combat. Everyone who matters at all in the setting can engage in it, and it's just like a battle of wills when you meet eachother, nothing physical involved. It's also highly effective, to the point where if somebody engaged you in physical combat you'd just have to respond by engaging them in soul combat and either destroy them because they were a mook who thought swords could hurt you, or they aren't a mook and would need soul combat to defend themselves.

                                Since this is the case, there's a really cheap entry level talent to just immunize yourself against physical harm anyway, any physical attack is turned aside before it strikes you regardless of power or scope. There's even a major villain in the default setting who had that talent and a mountain sized meteor dropped on them. They're fine, they live under it now, it was only heat and mass, not a soul meteor, and it's actually a boon because now you need to astral project just to go get them.

                                Now cross that with Exalted. No, Invincible Fury of the Dawn doesn't do anything, I don't care that it's a hammer that weighs as much as a VW beetle swinging faster than the eye can see, soul sensei aren't affected by physical blows, not even ones that wipe out a city. Even GET wouldn't work as for one they're not spirits and GET doesn't let you wound a mortal's soul, and for another the attacks specifically do not hit due to Transcend the Blade and Hammer and GET only triggers on a successful hit. As per 2e rules Perfect Defense beats Perfect Attack so even one of those fails against TtBaH. Fighting soul sensei via Exalted means requires things like soulbreaker orbs and the sensei have huge long talent trees all about resisting, reflecting, and avoiding those kind of attacks so good luck.
                                But if that's the case, can't Exalts just get integrity charms to boost their own will in a battle of wills, or use another charm to transform their own skills in swords to their own willpower, like 'parry' someone's mental attack or 'stab' at someone using an ethereal sword?

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