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  • So chimerization as a problem is gone?

    Yeah, just started reading my recently acquired copy of Fangs at the Gate.

    Also, i know the whole "casteless lunars may go crazy from wyld exposure or shapeshifting too much" was wholy a 2e thing, but wanted to be sure if the concept is truly gone or i just missed it.
    Partly curious because it touches on the role of moonsilve tatoos, perceptions of the casteless and some other bits.

    Ah, also noticed the writers seem to have considerably backpedaled on Ma-Ha-Suchi's portrayal, closer to his confrontation with Dace than the Dragon-blooded group sacrifice scene in Lunars, what, i approve of. Very nice to have a dozen NPC Lunars in the book too.

    Would like to hear people's thoughts and observations on those things.

  • #2
    It has gone the way of Old Yeller. This is a good thing.
    Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 10-24-2020, 09:26 AM.


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    • #3
      Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
      It has gone the way of Old Yeller. This is a good thing.

      The impression i got is that chimera is now at most something of a personal preference thing manifested in a few charms such as Chimera-Soul Expression - the need for Knacks as a thing seems to be gone too, with the reworking of the Eclipse charm-learning ability.

      How are things with castelessness in this edition? I noted at least a few of them in the sample characters in the book, Lilith among them, curiously.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Baaldam View Post
        How are things with castelessness in this edition?
        It works pretty well. They don't get the Caste discount on their Charms, but they do get a slight discount on all their Charms.


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        • #5
          Originally posted by Baaldam View Post


          The impression i got is that chimera is now at most something of a personal preference thing manifested in a few charms such as Chimera-Soul Expression - the need for Knacks as a thing seems to be gone too, with the reworking of the Eclipse charm-learning ability.

          How are things with castelessness in this edition? I noted at least a few of them in the sample characters in the book, Lilith among them, curiously.

          The intention is that casteless is a valid way to play from a starting Lunar to top Essence, and may be more powerful depending on what exactly you want to do with your character, just like the other options. I guess some NPCs are made casteless to reinforce this point.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Baaldam View Post

            Also, i know the whole "casteless lunars may go crazy from wyld exposure or shapeshifting too much" was wholy a 2e thing


            Second Edition systemized it and expanded it to include the Wyld Taint, but First Edition still had the concept that exposure to the Wyld without a Caste would turn Lunars into chimeras.

            Originally posted by Baaldam
            Partly curious because it touches on the role of moonsilve tatoos, perceptions of the casteless and some other bits.


            The tattoos themselves are a streamlined concept, particularly in the ease with which they can be applied.

            They retain the protection against the Wyld aspect, but that's ultimately kind of grandfathered in now that there isn't really lore of the Lunars spending much time out there now. It's primarily shifted to the function of Lunars actively transforming their Castes.

            Originally posted by Baaldam View Post
            the need for Knacks as a thing seems to be gone too, with the reworking of the Eclipse charm-learning ability.
            It should be noted that in First Edition, Charms related to Lunar shapeshifting were explicitly something that the Eclipse Anima power could not apply to. Knacks were not a necessity, they were a quirk of the writer who wanted to reconcile a sense that everything called a Charm should be possible for Eclipses to learn and not wanting them to learn those shapeshifting powers (or so I've heard from Holden).

            In any case, one can find that the basic concept of Knacks has now been largely translated into Universal Charms (no Attribute minimums) and Heart's Blood Charms (tying alternative shapeshifting methods to particular Attribute themes). The only other thing is that Knacks to turn into swarms or create clones have been reformatted as a cascade of Dexterity Charms.

            Originally posted by Baaldam
            How are things with castelessness in this edition?
            I think the Casteless are given more support in terms of things like getting multiple Favoured Attributes and discounts for the rest, being able to reduce the cost of shapeshifting (which matters a bit more now that those motes need to be committed) and their capacity to use other Caste's Anima powers is not tied to the cycles of the moon. That and how they get their own Role Bonuses for Lunar XP.

            So there's a matter of there being mechanical elements that make it feel a bit more than the character being hobbled, some lore elements to the effect of the Casteless being people who want to retain some of the versatility or having their own personal things going on, while not going so far as treating it as a secret alternative path to power. There are still clear benefits to having a proper Caste.


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            • #7
              Well, it isn't a systemized "bad pc" stick, or dangling plot thread to make you not like the elders.

              Just because it isn't being forced, doesn't mean a Lunar slowly going mad wouldn't "choose" to hybridize their spirit shape to better reflect their current personality/state of mind. It is more of an extension of psychology than some sort of magic curse. One of those is enough.

              It also allows for intentional chimera-ism following story beats. maybe you were the young idyllic silly fox in your youth, but the trials and tribulations of the Age of Sorrows has made you full of venom, spite, and trickery- mixing Scorpion into your Fox.
              Last edited by MoroseMorgan; 10-26-2020, 02:32 PM.


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              • #8
                Yeah, casteless are now perfectly viable characters even in the long run, chimeraization is a choice (at least on the player's behalf) with its own benefits rather than a curse, the change in the Lunar castes from the First Age is not a half-fixed corruption but a conscious adaption, Lunar elders' characters have been made more complex and useful, and the charmset is thematically distinct from Solars.

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                • #9
                  Casteless are in effect a fourth Caste. In 3e the origin of Castes generally, the relation (and kind of reduced amoun thereof) of Lunars with the Wyld, and os on do add up there. Which I think is generally interesting as it both makes the option feel less punishing, and I would argue a lot of the strength of the Changing Moon trickster stuff comes from the shapeshifting things being kind of offlaoded to Casteless to focus on as an additional PC viable option.


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                  • #10
                    Lots of stuff to read and think over indeed. Looks like porting over my old casteless rogue sorcerer will involve some interesting reworking indeed.

                    As an aside, the fact the corebook refers to Enemy Ghost's as "raised by a savage panther god" and then Fangs at the Gate citing the same as "a student of Sha’a Oka", got me confusing him with Chaste Obsidian (bald just exalted lunar from the intro comic in 2e Lunars) and imagining the Black Lion as 3rd edition's take of Magnificent Jaguar.

                    What was a weird but kind of fun epileptic tree theory....
                    Last edited by Baaldam; 10-26-2020, 09:38 AM.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by MoroseMorgan View Post

                      Just because it isn't being forced, doesn't mean a Lunar slowly going mad wouldn't "choose" to hybridize their spirit shape to better reflect their current personality/state of mind. It is more of an extension of psychology than some sort of magic curse. One of those is enough.
                      I'm a bit uncomfortable with the depiction of mental health this would entail.

                      The idea of modification to fit changes in priority seems to be what they were going for, sure.

                      Originally posted by Verzio View Post
                      Yeah, casteless are now perfectly viable characters even in the long run, chimeraization is a choice (at least on the player's behalf) with its own benefits rather than a curse


                      This is one of those areas where I want to point out that a hybrid spirit shape technically wasn't what chimerism was in First Edition. The way that the Tell and spirit shapes worked there meant that you were able to change your archetypal animal, but you'd keep the indicator left by your previous one (which was more pronounced based on how many times you purchased Deadly Beastman Transformation). It was stated that Lunars had an irrational stigma of those who changed their spirit shape (identifiable by that look) on the basis of presuming that they were inclined towards becoming chimera, which was a separate thing and mostly resembled its Second Edition concept (including the point that you couldn't actually become one after your Caste was fixed).

                      I feel as though some of that distinction is worth pointing out, because in a vacuum the statement "becoming a chimera is a choice" might lead some people to think it means the stuff like freely applied mutations and Charms for shapeshifting into flesh piles.

                      Originally posted by Blaque View Post
                      I would argue a lot of the strength of the Changing Moon trickster stuff comes from the shapeshifting things being kind of offlaoded to Casteless to focus on as an additional PC viable option.
                      Gyaahh the Changing Moon Caste is so good now!


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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                        I'm a bit uncomfortable with the depiction of mental health this would entail.
                        I was speaking from my own personal experience with my mental illness, but I understand if that phrasing/depcition is uncomfortable for others. Apologies.

                        Edit: I could also see a cycle of internal conflict, striving for normalcy, then acceptance and revery in purchasing Chimera-Soul, Beast-Form Empowerment, then Shifting Beast Nature (potentially with house-rule or custom repurchase to accomodate the Chimera mutations, similar to the Beast-Form Empowerment clause)
                        Last edited by MoroseMorgan; 10-29-2020, 02:09 PM.


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                        • #13
                          Yes, now mixing it up by taking two spirit shapes and merging them into a hideous abomination is just a charm with no mental downsides (though IIRC a few lunars in setting have unfounded superstitions about it being bad for your mental state and kind of side eye lunars that choose to go the chimera route).


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