One little thing with huge repercussions in Fangs at the Gate

[Baaldam]

Pardon me if it has already been adressed in some other thread, but while reading on the section on the Caul, more specifically the "Spirits and Fae on the Caul" segment, i came across a sentence that really got my attention for the extra twists it brings to the subject of rogue spirits flouting terrestrial or celestial hierarchies.

When the Caul vanished, it took spirits with it as well as mortals. Elementals have repopulated the Gaia-touched continent in the centuries since its reappearance, springing forth from the sacred land in far greater numbers than anywhere else in Creation.
Yu-Shan’s attempts to reinstate a terrestrial hierarchy of gods on the Caul has met with less success, owing both to bureaucratic disorder over the continent’s destiny and to the Silver Pact’s ouster of any gods they encounter, lest their reports provide the Bronze Faction with actionable intelligence. All told, gods constitute a minority of the continent’s spirits.

While the focus here is in the Caul and the Lunars' millenia-long cold war with the Bronze Faction, it's a matter that can go far beyond it.

These kind of reports and actionable intelligence is valuable not only to the Bronze Faction, but Sidereals and Yu-shan as a whole, ergo, anyone that might be better off without divine or sidereal oversight - like demons, fae, the dead and a number of other less classifiable beings - could have something of a stake in continuous sabotage of this sort to Yu-shan's authority.

Meaning this sort of intrigue and troubles, with cults, organizations or dominions under the control of rogue gods, exalts, elementals, demons, fae & more alternating between competition and alliances of interest depending on locale & occasion, are far from unique to the Caul (though the scale there is definitely much bigger due to how it applies to a whole continental landmass), but part of a much older and more extensive phenomenon that may be found to some degree anywhere all across Creation.

From the same page:

The Caul’s wild, untamed spirits can be perilous to unwary Dragon-Blooded. They don’t fear the Immaculate Order as most Threshold spirits do and are thus more likely to escalate conflicts to violence than submit to self-assured Dragon-Blooded.
The Caul’s spiritual landscape is less threatening to Lunar visitors. Silver Pact witches and mystics have forged covenants with many of the continent’s rogue pantheons and feral divinities, allying against the Immaculates who threaten both.
But others — especially the Fair Folk — have no truck with Luna’s Chosen, and the land grows even more trackless, deceptive, and threatening within their areas of influence.

Who knows, the many peculiar cultures of the Dreaming Sea might be one other highly visible - and very, very longstanding, harkening to the Divine Revolution itself - aspect of a major issue that can be found in many varied iterations in many of the lands in the borders of the Threshold and beyond, might be said.


So, does that pique your interest like it did mine? It definitely inspired me with all kind of crazy images and ideas, what makes me curious about other people's own thoughts on the matter.

[Isator Levi]

While the focus here is in the Caul and the Lunars' millenia-long cold war with the Bronze Faction, it's a matter that can go far beyond it.

These kind of reports and actionable intelligence is valuable not only to the Bronze Faction, but Sidereals and Yu-shan as a whole, ergo, anyone that might be better off without divine or sidereal oversight - like demons, fae, the dead and a number of other less classifiable beings - could have something of a stake in continuous sabotage of this sort to Yu-shan's authority.

I think this kind of thing has been part of the game's conception of gods since at least Games of Divinity.

Who knows, the many peculiar cultures of the Dreaming Sea might be one other highly visible - and very, very longstanding, harkening to the Divine Revolution itself - aspect of a major issue that can be found in many varied iterations in many of the lands in the borders of the Threshold and beyond, might be said.

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here, but if it's the idea that the Dreaming Sea on the whole does not have any kind of function under the Celestial Order like the Caul does, I would point out three issues with that.

I think this is one of those details of what makes the Caul so strange and ominous that ought to be a bit proprietary.

The Caul makes more sense as a place where such a standard could be maintained by its smaller size, greater confinement and the relatively high density of Lunar Exalted there.

I think it's an idea that rests very heavily on the whole thing of the Caul disappearing for several hundred years and returning with the only survivor being a single Lunar Exalt.

If the Dreaming Sea were to have distinctions in its relationship with Heaven and conduct with mortals, I think it should arise from what is unique about its own history and qualities.

Still, we'll see if in future Third Edition retains the concept found throughout the game's history that, since the Great Contagion, Terrestrial gods maintaining their reports to Yu-Shan has diminished significantly. Lunar severity on the Caul could be reconciled with that by means of things such as overkill, limits to how much they know of the extent of Heaven's authority, or the idea that assignment of gods to unclaimed land specifically could allow Yu-Shan to select for ones that would actually perform their duties.

[Baaldam]

I think this kind of thing has been part of the game's conception of gods since at least Games of Divinity.

The concept of such corruption and challenge of authority and even some sample individuals involved in it? Yes.

A presentation of this flouting at work, with a chain of alliances and motivations involved, how they can fit together in defining a whole region in a pervasive manner? Definitely not. Even Great Forks, a very well-known city-state whose existence hinges in such an interplay, never gave us much in the way of how it could actually work in such an open manner and level.

It explains the breakdown of divine authority in a concise manner in terms that relates directly to interaction with characters. Clarity that can lead to action, instead of infodump or sometimes random lore.

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here, but if it's the idea that the Dreaming Sea on the whole does not have any kind of function under the Celestial Order like the Caul does, I would point out three issues with that.

I think this is one of those details of what makes the Caul so strange and ominous that ought to be a bit proprietary.
The Caul makes more sense as a place where such a standard could be maintained by its smaller size, greater confinement and the relatively high density of Lunar Exalted there.

I think it's an idea that rests very heavily on the whole thing of the Caul disappearing for several hundred years and returning with the only survivor being a single Lunar Exalt.

If the Dreaming Sea were to have distinctions in its relationship with Heaven and conduct with mortals, I think it should arise from what is unique about its own history and qualities.

I was trying to speak of the possible pervasiveness of this thing in a number of permutations of varied scale, location & power players, while pointing out a possible reading of the Dreaming Sea, a region so full of remnants lost ages and inhuman civilizations, as another point of major breakdown of divine authority.

Possible reading. Not saying it's the same. Specifity is key and any ST can work out many disparate takes of the region based in the limited book info so far.

Yes, the scale and degree to which such a thing successfully occurs in the Caul is quite unique to its circunstances, but the interplay of interests is quite aplicable to other places. It provides a framework that is simple to understand and extrapolate from, in an actionable manner, for both players and STs.

That said, Creation has gone through some periods of extensive upheaval and devastation. While no other place - that we know of - disappeared and then returned in the same manner, the combined tragedies of Contagion and Fae Invasion did anihilate with the greater part of the inhabitants of Creation, mortal, exalted and divine, so some parts are not quite as unique as others, imho.

Still, we'll see if in future Third Edition retains the concept found throughout the game's history that, since the Great Contagion, Terrestrial gods maintaining their reports to Yu-Shan has diminished significantly. Lunar severity on the Caul could be reconciled with that by means of things such as overkill, limits to how much they know of the extent of Heaven's authority, or the idea that assignment of gods to unclaimed land specifically could allow Yu-Shan to select for ones that would actually perform their duties.

Could be. For me the interesting thing was a convenient setup that is easy to fill the dots upon and can still lead to considerable variation depending on a variety of factors like scale and history of a place, type of individuals of power (demons dealing with rogue gods or the dead around a Great Lakes like area in the middle of southern desert can go quite differently from Winter Folk making deals with brutal fire elementals ruling volcano-citadels in an Iceland-esque isle and so on), their desires and a number of other factors.