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What is there to support a Lunar Necromancer?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Robert Vance View Post
    Note that only one of them, Seven Obsidian Leopard, is a necromancer. Tanisa Ring-Eater isn't one.

    Yeah, that is what i was remembering, the major necromancers called out were one of the members of the duo and Smiling Rat up in the North.

    That said, nothing against Mount Namas, but it ain't a "mists, shadows & undead enshrouded empire" as i jokingly envisioned in my previous posts.
    Time for a third Shahan-Ya necromancer it seems.


    edit: Oh, wait - Aldis Nerin, the culture hero of Sijan. It is mentioned in Fangs that she's a Lunar, a necromancer and very much alive, having faked her death.
    Ok, she's much younger than either Raksi of Seven Obsidian Leopard, but it's Sijan, if there's a place to pull "underworld empire under everybody's noses" it's that city. That's definitely worth tinkering with.
    Last edited by Baaldam; 11-12-2020, 08:58 PM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Baaldam View Post


      Yeah, that is what i was remembering, the major necromancers called out were one of the members of the duo and Smiling Rat up in the North.

      That said, nothing against Mount Namas, but it ain't a "mists, shadows & undead enshrouded empire" as i jokingly envisioned in my previous posts.
      Time for a third Shahan-Ya necromancer it seems.


      edit: Oh, wait - Aldis Nerin, the culture hero of Sijan. It is mentioned in Fangs that she's a Lunar, a necromancer and very much alive, having faked her death.
      Ok, she's much younger than either Raksi of Seven Obsidian Leopard, but it's Sijan, if there's a place to pull "underworld empire under everybody's noses" it's that city. That's definitely worth tinkering with.
      I forgot about the Sijanese one, Smiling Rat struck me as more antagonist material then mentor material unless you are running an 'evil' game thats cool with sticking it to the realm by turning the north into a giant shadowland.

      Edit: Though on rereading he was explicitly called out as happy to pass his skills in necromancy on to aspirants so maybe he is one of those 'terrible to his enemies and the unaffiliated but cool to his allies' types? Or it is really hard to find necromancy teachers up north so people have to make do with what they can get up there.
      Last edited by Mizu; 11-13-2020, 11:50 PM.


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      • #18
        Originally posted by Mizu View Post

        I forgot about the Sijanese one, Smiling Rat struck me as more antagonist material then mentor material unless you are running an 'evil' game thats cool with sticking it to the realm by turning the north into a giant shadowland.
        Well, i also completely forgot about Aldis until i decided to reread my PDF just because, so nothing wrong with that. It's a one paragraph reference in a box in the whole book, easy to miss or forget.

        Originally posted by Mizu View Post
        Edit: Though on rereading he was explicitly called out as happy to pass his skills in necromancy on to aspirants so maybe he is one of those 'terrible to his enemies and the unaffiliated but cool to his allies' types? Or it is really hard to find necromancy teachers up north so people have to make do with what they can get up there.

        Well, having a mentor that is potential antagonist/villain material is very in theme for pulpy fantasy/sword & sorcery, i dare say, so it's fair i think.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Mizu View Post

          I forgot about the Sijanese one, Smiling Rat struck me as more antagonist material then mentor material unless you are running an 'evil' game thats cool with sticking it to the realm by turning the north into a giant shadowland.

          Edit: Though on rereading he was explicitly called out as happy to pass his skills in necromancy on to aspirants so maybe he is one of those 'terrible to his enemies and the unaffiliated but cool to his allies' types? Or it is really hard to find necromancy teachers up north so people have to make do with what they can get up there.
          Smiling Rat does strike me as "that mentor/teacher you expect to be a monster because of their methods, but turns out to be quite pleasant and urbane" type.

          According to word of dev, it's not like he *wants* to live in a Creation which has turned into a huge Shadowland, it just really, REALLY, screws the Realm right now. (My suspicions are that the undo-Shadowland Necromancy is in a tier that Dragonblood can't access but he can, so if the Realm falls, he can go ahead and fix it).

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          • #20
            Originally posted by prototype00 View Post

            Smiling Rat does strike me as "that mentor/teacher you expect to be a monster because of their methods, but turns out to be quite pleasant and urbane" type.

            According to word of dev, it's not like he *wants* to live in a Creation which has turned into a huge Shadowland, it just really, REALLY, screws the Realm right now. (My suspicions are that the undo-Shadowland Necromancy is in a tier that Dragonblood can't access but he can, so if the Realm falls, he can go ahead and fix it).

            Where is that at? Sounds like something I'd be interested in reading.


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            • #21
              Originally posted by Mizu View Post
              unless you are running an 'evil' game thats cool with sticking it to the realm by turning the north into a giant shadowland.
              I should think that the portrayal of Lunars as a whole makes definitions of good and evil for characters in those situations a tad fuzzy.

              The Charm to let you torment a person with paranoid fear that alienates them from everybody around them with the certainty that they're really Lunars in disguise isn't cordoned off in the Book of Vile Darkness.

              Originally posted by Mizu
              Though on rereading he was explicitly called out as happy to pass his skills in necromancy on to aspirants so maybe he is one of those 'terrible to his enemies and the unaffiliated but cool to his allies' types?
              "Hey, they're the ones who are shunning me."

              Originally posted by Mizu
              Or it is really hard to find necromancy teachers up north so people have to make do with what they can get up there.
              I should think there's a very good chance that the number of Labyrinth Circle necromancers in the entire world can be counted on one hand.

              Besides, I feel as though when it comes to mentor characters in general, there's more distinguishing them than just knowledge of a technical utility kind. There are things like attitude and order of priorities. One is free to find interpretations between "Smiling Rat takes the ruthlessness that characterizes most of us a step too far" and "we love the energy, but question the practicality".

              I think one could easily portray a student who is intrigued by the legend and wants to find out the facts for themselves.

              Or heck, the texts to learn Shadowlands spells are scarce enough as it is and he possesses a few that can't be readily found elsewhere. Spells still need to be learned from something external, and the Storyteller has discretion to state which ones are stored where.


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              • #22
                I should think that the portrayal of Lunars as a whole makes definitions of good and evil for characters in those situations a tad fuzzy.
                Well yeah, look at how they are portrayed as a whole. Then look at how that same group took one look at Smiling Rat's methods and said 'holy **** what a lunatic!' and stopped inviting him to come hang out with the cool kids when the Shahan-ya meet.

                The Charm to let you torment a person with paranoid fear that alienates them from everybody around them with the certainty that they're really Lunars in disguise isn't cordoned off in the Book of Vile Darkness.
                And then you have some lunars who decided that they don't like killing people to steal their faces and who made the effort to learn alternative ways of getting them even as others just stick with 'kill and steal'. Though of course some of them had pragmatic reasons for it (what if I want to permanently gainthe face of someone who I also want to stay alive as a usable asset?) instead of a moral objection to eating random drifters to get awesome disguises.


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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Mizu View Post
                  Well yeah, look at how they are portrayed as a whole. Then look at how that same group took one look at Smiling Rat's methods and said 'holy **** what a lunatic!' and stopped inviting him to come hang out with the cool kids when the Shahan-ya meet.
                  I think this being definitive would be a simplification for why there is a schism in these terrorists.

                  Again, it can be regarded as a matter of practicality or specific distaste for the Underworld more than "deliberate shadowlands are substantially more evil than all our other methods for killing".

                  Originally posted by Mizu
                  And then you have some lunars who decided that they don't like killing people to steal their faces and who made the effort to learn alternative ways of getting them even as others just stick with 'kill and steal'.
                  Eh, Charms aren't really inventions. I should think Heart's Blood Charms are refinements of mutable Lunar Essence through the personality of the Attributes (or maybe the Attributes forming means of accessing more niche qualities of Luna's mythos), not engineering to solve the problem of how to acquire shapes. They might be pursued out of moral conviction, but also just for variety of options or the method being gratifying to the particular person.


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                  • #24
                    Now going into something of a slightly tangent, i remember some from back in 1e, in at least one of the aspectbooks, some references to immaculate legendry connecting the Underworld (on a "keeping it contained and separate from Creation" at least) to the the figure of Danaad and the element of water.

                    Does either WFHW, the Realm or Heirs to the Shogunate explore the subject of dragon-blooded interactions with the dead and or necromancy and how their powers deal, connect or not with them?
                    Last edited by Baaldam; 11-21-2020, 11:00 PM.

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                    • #25
                      Not this edition, but on the "prominence of Lunar Necromancers in the setting" front, previously the origin of Necromancy itself had been tied to the legendary Black Nadir Concordat, a small group of Solars and Lunars (3 and 2, I think?) who ventured into the Labyrinth in the First Age and extracted it from the Neverborn.

                      3e isn't going to give you that kind of single presumed source, but I think it's still valid inspiration for *one* way Necromancy was discovered, and Lunars were a big part of it.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Baaldam View Post

                        Does either WFHW, the Realm or Heirs to the Shogunate explore the subject of dragon-blooded interactions with the dead and or necromancy and how their powers deal, connect or not with them?
                        I wouldn't call it an exploration as such, but I do find implications in the Dragon Blooded Charms that interact with the dead specifically in the form of creating elemental phenomena that cycle them back into reincarnation as well as harnessing the things like salt and grain that ward against them. To me it kind of creates an impression that their elemental Essence is biased against the dead sticking around in particular, and is the kind of thing that plays into the Immaculate Philosophy's general stance against the Underworld.

                        That said, the Wanasaan have an affinity for the Water Aspect and their sorcerous initiation is facilitated by a ritual of drowning, although even their inclination is towards exorcising the dead rather than harnessing them.

                        I do see a basis for Water and the mythology of Danaa'd being able to reach towards actual necromantic power, but think it would constitute something at the margins of Dragon Blooded affinity. But I wouldn't phrase that in terms of discouragement so much as their being a threshold that Terrestrial Exalted have a need to push through, with Water Aspects having a slightly higher trend of doing so.


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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Baaldam View Post
                          Now going into something of a slightly tangent, i remember some from back in 1e, in at least one of the aspectbooks, some references to immaculate legendry connecting the Underworld (on a "keeping it contained and separate from Creation" at least) to the the figure of Danaad and the element of water.
                          Are you thinking of “Daana’d swam to the bottom of the ocean to seal the Solars in the Underworld” or something else?

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Sith_Happens View Post

                            Are you thinking of “Daana’d swam to the bottom of the ocean to seal the Solars in the Underworld” or something else?

                            Possibly that, though i remember something a little more elaborate, about a queen of the Underworld and some sort of seal - maybe some piece of literature from a Records of Before section, i guess.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Baaldam View Post
                              Now going into something of a slightly tangent, i remember some from back in 1e, in at least one of the aspectbooks, some references to immaculate legendry connecting the Underworld (on a "keeping it contained and separate from Creation" at least) to the the figure of Danaad and the element of water.

                              Does either WFHW, the Realm or Heirs to the Shogunate explore the subject of dragon-blooded interactions with the dead and or necromancy and how their powers deal, connect or not with them?
                              One of the Three Elite Fiends of the Grass Spiders is a Dragon-Blooded necromancer, but there hasn't been anything printed addressing the topic of Dragon-Blooded necromancers in general.


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                              • #30
                                Personally I don’t see why DBs still need to be able to be necromancers now that Liminals exist to fill in the “first-circle-only necromancers” slot but 🤷.

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