What is there to support a Lunar Necromancer?

[Mizu]

Personally I don’t see why DBs still need to be able to be necromancers now that Liminals exist to fill in the “first-circle-only necromancers” slot but 🤷.

It honestly seems kind of weird to lock any of the exalted out of being able to do tier one sorcerery/necromancy since those are supposed to be things you can achieve as a regular human with a ton of effort (or at least I think regular humans can do necromancy now without being ghost blooded? Might be remembering that one wrong). It feels weird for an exaltation to make you less capable at something then you were before receiving it. Though the weird ones that involve someone who was never a regular person to begin with like liminals or alchemicals can't make that complaint, I guess.

[Baaldam]

Personally I don’t see why DBs still need to be able to be necromancers now that Liminals exist to fill in the “first-circle-only necromancers” slot but 🤷.

Well, i'd say it's too son to say. As Mizu commented in its post, locking DBs out of acessing 1st circle necromancy would be weird if it's something as viable to an ambitious/dedicated/power-mad mortal as Sorcery.

Also, truth be told, DBs and Liminals both seem to be far more into the "purge the dead back into the cycle" niche than dealing/wielding them, for that matter.

[JohnDoe244]

Personally I don’t see why DBs still need to be able to be necromancers now that Liminals exist to fill in the “first-circle-only necromancers” slot but 🤷.

Further to the "well mortals can do it", Lunars were also 1st Circle only until 3E. So it's not really about "slots".

I don't see why a Dragon-Blooded can't make zombies or summon ghosts. I'd say do away with Dragons of a Different Color and just give them all access to 1CN.

[Baaldam]

Further to the "well mortals can do it", Lunars were also 1st Circle only until 3E. So it's not really about "slots".

I don't see why a Dragon-Blooded can't make zombies or summon ghosts. I'd say do away with Dragons of a Different Color and just give them all access to 1CN.

Truth be told, the Liminals at least in some ways seem to have subsumed that "chosen of the elements of the Underworld" conceptual niche the Dragons of a Different Color hinged upon - imho at least - so it's up for grabs if they will make a comeback or get lost among the endless shards of Szoreny...

But yeah, i'm kind of curious about explorations on the subject of interaction of Dragon-Blooded essence with the powers of death and underworld.

Air scours, Earth ensconces, Fire cremates, Water washes away (is Lethe not a river?), Wood consumes.

Each element has its way of reacting to dead things and we have yet to see what directions they may lead in conjunction or against.

[Isator Levi]

Personally I don’t see why DBs still need to be able to be necromancers now that Liminals exist to fill in the “first-circle-only necromancers” slot but 🤷.

There are no slots, only tools to create characters, and part of the idea of Martial Arts and sorcery is that it's a form of power standing apart from Exalted archetypes.

I'll do you one better and say that I don't understand why Dragon Blooded practicing necromancy needs to be this specialised separate category. Abyssals can learn sorcery as a matter of course, but a Terrestrial learning necromancy needs to be part of this weird sub-group with its own baggage? Why?

[Sith_Happens]

You know you wrote something either really right or really wrong when almost the whole next page is quoting it.

Anyway, forgot about the “Well I was a teen prodigy necromancer but now that I’m a Wood Aspect why won’t it work!?” factor. Carry on.

[Frostav]

I always wondered where this idea of Lunars being the best necromancers amongst the "traditional" Exalted came from. It doesn't seem related to their themes at all, unless you're digging into slightly problematic native shaman voodoo stuff or something?

[Plastic Doll]

Isn't it something new from 3ed? If it was there in previous editions maybe it was because DB necromancers were extremely rare, and while Sidereals were represented as very academic oriented they were outnumbered 3 or 4 to 1 and were very centered around Yu-Shan which wasn't very Underworld friendly. 3rd edition seems to play up the general adaptability of Lunars and their Jack-of-all-trade nature.

[Baaldam]

Isn't it something new from 3ed? If it was there in previous editions maybe it was because DB necromancers were extremely rare, and while Sidereals were represented as very academic oriented they were outnumbered 3 or 4 to 1 and were very centered around Yu-Shan which wasn't very Underworld friendly. 3rd edition seems to play up the general adaptability of Lunars and their Jack-of-all-trade nature.

That and lunar/dionysian mythic archetypes i would guess.

[JohnDoe244]

I always wondered where this idea of Lunars being the best necromancers amongst the "traditional" Exalted came from. It doesn't seem related to their themes at all, unless you're digging into slightly problematic native shaman voodoo stuff or something?

Well in previous editions they got to co-discover Necromancy with the Solars (pretty much by virtue of Solar Bond). And it's the type of things Sidereals frown on... plus there's more of them. Like, there's twice as many Lunars in 2E than Solars. Three times as many as there are Abyssals or Sidereals. Six times as many as there are Fiends.

So you have a community, which has some of its First Age knowledge intact, motive, means, and opportunity.

They get the role of "Best Non-Necromancer Necromancers" just by default.

Consider also the number of animals associated with death (and witchcraft and voodoo). Necromancer as Trickster: D&D and Marvel have both associated Loki with the undead (I can't think of any original Norse myths off the top of my head). Lunars as otherworldly. And in 3E, Lunars are actually good and therefore get powers commensurate with being the peers of the Solars --- why shouldn't the terrifying shapechangers on the edge of the living world be as good at necromancy as the golden Sun kings?

I don't think it's particularly out of theme for them to be good at necromancy. Especially as part of their whole "jack of all trades" deal.

[Isator Levi]

I always wondered where this idea of Lunars being the best necromancers amongst the "traditional" Exalted came from. It doesn't seem related to their themes at all, unless you're digging into slightly problematic native shaman voodoo stuff or something?

I think part of it was a desire for there to be more people with a bit more access to necromancy since the premise that it could only be accessed above the lowest circle by the different forms of Solar contributed to the sense of its neglect, and part of it was in the search for a more expansive Lunar identity, which in this case arose more from the premise of them as liminal beings with a toe in many worlds and a power over their boundaries*, combined with them having a certain greater affinity for darkness and terror than the other Celestial Exalted.

I find Third Edition ultimately applied some of the world-walker stuff with the mildest touch to some of their Charms targeted at dealing with ghosts, and there's still just enough of the affinity for the dead stuff combined with their natural penchant for horrors to make the association with necromancy feel organic enough.

* Basically there was a wish for their relationship with the Wyld to be something treated similarly to the Underworld and even Malfeas, with a notion that they were empowered with a special role in keeping monsters from crossing those borders.

[Mizu]

I always wondered where this idea of Lunars being the best necromancers amongst the "traditional" Exalted came from. It doesn't seem related to their themes at all, unless you're digging into slightly problematic native shaman voodoo stuff or something?

For me personally I always saw their status as being great at going across boundaries as meaning they should be pretty good at crossing the boundary between life and death energies to call upon the essence of death and necromancy. Plus their association with the dark mysteries of night and the fact that necromancy is generally included under that kind of thing. And from gameplay a balance thing against their 'equal' the sidereal them getting access to second tier necromancy, second tier sorcerery, and regular magical martial arts balances against sids getting 2nd tier sorcerery, 1st tier necromancy, and sidereal martial arts.

edit: Though that last one applies less this edition because now Sidereal are hilariously awful at using artifacts and martial arts have been squashed down to 2 tiers instead of 3.

[JohnDoe244]

Though that last one applies less this edition because now Sidereal are hilariously awful at using artifacts

Are there any published Sids, from any edition, who have any non-Starmetal artifacts?

Sids have always been the "Starmetal or broke" faction.

[Mizu]

Are there any published Sids, from any edition, who have any non-Starmetal artifacts?

Sids have always been the "Starmetal or broke" faction.

Yeah, but in the same way as everyone else only got the stat bonus from attuning to their splat material in 2E. IIRC in 3E they are actively dissonant with everything but starmetal instead of just being a neutral 'not resonant but not dissonant either'.

[JohnDoe244]

Yeah, but in the same way as everyone else only got the stat bonus from attuning to their splat material in 2E. IIRC in 3E they are actively dissonant with everything but starmetal instead of just being a neutral 'not resonant but not dissonant either'.

True but, for example, The Bull of the North uses a jade daiklave.

Sids pretty exclusively used Starmetal. Starmetal being the rarest of the magical materials... but still the one Sids used. In the editions where Five-Fold Resonance Enhancers existed. Where you could force "resonance" by committing double motes.

(Granted, Lunars were also pretty strong on Moonsilver and they get to be neutral with other materials. But there are examples of them using their mates weapons etc.)

A Sid with a Starmetal weapon is just as strong a Lunar with a Moonsilver weapon. Sure a Lunar with a Starmetal weapon is stronger than a Sid with a Moonsilver weapon... but it's not like Liminals who don't even get Resonant with any magical material.