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Interpreting Canon Demons.

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  • #16
    Can Aleuva use Any Craft?

    Like Say Make a Warship?


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    • #17
      Originally posted by habitableexoplanet View Post


      Lunar-created beastfolk explicitly have 6 dots of beneficial mutations and no harmful ones, except insofar as some of the mutations can be inconvenient in certain situations. I don't see any reason that neomah-created human-animal hybrids would have the same property, which I guess is a reflection of Luna's gifts (or the Lunar Exalted's mastery over form). I think it would be appropriately demonic to have a mix of beneficial and harmful consequences.

      For the worst case, I note that beastfolk are the equal of humans in their intelligence, their capability of speech, and their flexible arms with opposable thumbs suitable for using tools, but what you get by throwing human and animal flesh at a neomah might not be.
      Well it depends how dedicated they are to the project, it is a craft project after all.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Prince of the Night View Post
        I think its valid to try creating serfdom

        Depends on what you mean by "valid".

        If you mean "is this possible at all", then, yeah. Lots of things in Exalted are possible. The specifically proposed method, though, of using neomah, probably won't work for a couple of reasons. First, as others have pointed out, neomah make babies, not full-grown adults. So you're going to have to raise them to adulthood (which will be more difficult than typical children, as I'll get into in the next point). More critically, though, neomah aren't genetic engineers as we picture them in science fiction. They make children using the traits of the beings they weave flesh from. So if you don't start with someone or something with a "naturally servile" trait, you can't get a neomah-made child with it. And I don't think there's any creature in Creation that currently has that trait. Certainly no humans with it.


        Now, even if you can create "naturally servile" people to be your serfs (or, let's be honest: your slaves), the plan might not work out the way you actually want it to. The Exalted are powerful enough to implement a lot of plans. But the Exaltation doesn't provide wisdom, the ability to realize whether something is a good plan. And I really don't think this is a good one. First of all, it's going to get a lot of people mad at you. This is textbook "monstrous Anathema" behavior, and will put you high on the Wyld Hunt's list of "people to kill yesterday". And you'll probably get a ton of wandering heroic types dropping in just to try to stomp the mad sorcerer king who's creating a slave race. And the whole "stereotypical Anathema behavior" might get a fair number of Solars and Lunars coming after you who aren't super-morally motivated, but still don't want someone so blatantly proving all the Immaculate stories so completely right, either.

        And even once you get past all the people trying to stop you, your society is just going to be not that good, on an economic level (as well as the moral one!). There's pretty good evidence from history that slave societies get out-competed by free ones. In the United States, for instance, the northern states before the Civil War were significantly more economically developed: more industry, more agricultural production, more trade, and more immigration and population growth, compared to the southern states where slavery was common. And the reason's pretty obvious when you think about it. Slaves have no reason to work harder, to innovate, to do anything beyond the absolute bare minimum they can get away with without punishment, and the more motivated and innovative one is, the more likely they are to put that energy into escaping, not working to benefit their master. Whereas free workers have incentives to work harder and develop new techniques, since it directly contributes to their own success.

        So, what you're proposing is a society where a large portion of the population is enslaved, and lacks the fundamental drive and motivation to even try to break out of that situation. It's going to be inherently less productive than the societies around it due to that. It's also going to function even at the basic level, the "unskilled" tasks you're suggesting they be used for, worse than its surrounding neighbors. Because the jobs that "serfs" did generally weren't "unskilled". They required training and learning, and needed adaptability and problem-solving skills to overcome the unexpected challenges that arose. Someone who's "naturally servile" is going to be bad at all that - they'll learn more slowly, because they lack imagination and the ability to make connections, and when differences in routine arise (and they will), they won't be able to cope with them nearly as well.


        Finally, there's the question on whether you mean "valid" in the sense of "I shouldn't be judged for suggesting this idea". In which case, all I can say is sorry, dude, but you're gonna get judged. Exalted isn't actually a "morally neutral" game (whatever that means). Its authors have taken ethical stances. People in Creation may practice slavery, but the authors don't think that's right. Things like slavery, the rampant imperial exploitation of the Realm, the excesses of the First Age Solars and Lunars, the political corruption of Heaven and some Sidereals, all exist as things the characters can fight, not to give you an excuse to emulate them at your table.

        At an even higher level, though, you would likely get pushback on an idea like this no matter what game or fandom you made it in. Slavery is a very real thing, and touches on people's lives. There are still people enslaved in the world today, of course, but the historical legacy of slavery isn't something that's absent either. Some of the stuff you're describing you want your "natural serfs" to be were literally things white people claimed black people actually were, in order to justify enslaving them. And those attitudes and beliefs have absolutely not vanished, despite slavery being (officially!) banned for a century and a half. So making this proposition touches on a lot of emotional issues that are very much present for people in the real world, and you're never going to be able to make it without getting a very negative response. And if you find a place where you can make it without that kind of negative response, I suggest you think very hard about why there wasn't that response. Because the most likely reason for a community to have no pushback against a morally reprehensible idea is because at least some members of the community support the idea, and the rest at least don't want to make an effort speaking against it.


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        • #19
          The best case scenario for creating individuals to be serfs would be a scenario where the kid is being given to existing serfs. Its a bit of a different story between creating a bunch of infants to have them raised with the logic that doing the whole serf thing is natural and normal for them vs "Hi, welcome to my territory figured I'd lay out some rules and services I offer my serfs. Like if you happy couple you eventually decide you want kids, but you don't want to go through the risks and complications of child bearing, or it just isn't working for you; let me know I'll get some things running and we can get a neomah here to make a baby or two for you."

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          • #20
            Hmmmn on the whole serfdom thing?

            What demons could help with it currently I see ermithoi and Agata to find hunt escapee's

            If we use some of the demons from 2nd edition though... Firmin would be invaluable for providing tools

            Thought about Tinsinia for a moment or two, But decided if you want contented well b ehaved serfs not Terrified slaves, then their a bad idea.

            Aalu can handle buerucratic side of things.


            any other ideas?


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            • #21
              Originally posted by Prince of the Night View Post
              I think its valid to try creating serfdom


              I am curious how you keep looking for that, but that's not a large impediment.

              Summoning up the demons and acquiring the materials at the scale to do this as you would propose would entail a great deal of effort, but it's certainly doable for the person willing to commit.

              The big question is, who's going to teach them how to farm?

              Originally posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
              Whereas free workers have incentives to work harder and develop new techniques, since it directly contributes to their own success.
              Innovation against something other than absolute necessity requires both freedom and already existing abundance to create a security net, mind. When farmers and artisans are operating at barely above subsistence level, risky experimentation is a bad idea when it might jeopardize your actual life. People stick to processes that are ultimately inefficient but tried and true for generations when exploring the alternative might end up down paths that lead to you starving to death or being reduced to begging (different values determine which is considered worse).


              I have approximate knowledge of many things.
              Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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              • #22
                [QUOTE=Isator Levi;n1424797]

                I am curious how you keep looking for that, but that's not a large impediment.

                Summoning up the demons and acquiring the materials at the scale to do this as you would propose would entail a great deal of effort, but it's certainly doable for the person willing to commit.

                The big question is, who's going to teach them how to farm?

                Very Valid point another reason you might just buy a hundred or so agricultural slaves from the guild and get them to build a village for you

                You can add in a few more slaves every now and then or try the neomah strategy.



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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Prince of the Night View Post
                  Can Aleuva use Any Craft?

                  Like Say Make a Warship?
                  Okay, so I actually looked at her writeup in the 3e core, and the writeup for Willing Souls Tempered would seem to imply that as long as she can stunt it as blacksmithing in aesthetics, she can do it--her skills are in "Forging Hellish Wonders". Her writeup also vaguely confirms the idea that she can make artifacts from her petitioners. Like all crafting NPC's, she doesn't actively keep track of silver, gold, or white XP, but a willing offering grants an equivalent of these to her for use in one of her projects: a single person can give 10 silver XP, allowing her to make a major project (which most of her given examples would fall into) with that soul. However, the 5 gold or single white XP--as well as the escalating requirements for each roll--imply that both she is capable of greater works (of which, say, a warship would be one)--and that they require more than one petitioner to complete: small nations might submit themselves for her greatest wonders.
                  Last edited by Mockery; 11-18-2020, 10:20 PM.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by habitableexoplanet View Post


                    Lunar-created beastfolk explicitly have 6 dots of beneficial mutations and no harmful ones, except insofar as some of the mutations can be inconvenient in certain situations. I don't see any reason that neomah-created human-animal hybrids would have the same property, which I guess is a reflection of Luna's gifts (or the Lunar Exalted's mastery over form). I think it would be appropriately demonic to have a mix of beneficial and harmful consequences.

                    For the worst case, I note that beastfolk are the equal of humans in their intelligence, their capability of speech, and their flexible arms with opposable thumbs suitable for using tools, but what you get by throwing human and animal flesh at a neomah might not be.
                    If they didn't have those mutations they wouldn't meaningfully be beastfolk. Making something as beastfolk would require mutations. And besides, it's not like being human would logically entitle them to special treatment where the neomah are concerned, any more so than any other type of mutant. They have a few tiny benefits, not God-Blood, a spiritual gift, or Exaltation. This is yet another reason why I loathe this Lunar-beastman proximity error connection, and wish that 3e would have just axed it.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

                      If they didn't have those mutations they wouldn't meaningfully be beastfolk. Making something as beastfolk would require mutations. And besides, it's not like being human would logically entitle them to special treatment where the neomah are concerned, any more so than any other type of mutant. They have a few tiny benefits, not God-Blood, a spiritual gift, or Exaltation. This is yet another reason why I loathe this Lunar-beastman proximity error connection, and wish that 3e would have just axed it.
                      Eh.

                      I could see a strong case for beast-folk with purely cosmetic alterations and Flaws (rather than mutations).


                      Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                        Eh.

                        I could see a strong case for beast-folk with purely cosmetic alterations and Flaws (rather than mutations).
                        And I could see the classification of beastfolk getting divvied up into grades between "mistaken for Lunar DBT by the uninitiated" to "strange eyes", but the bottom line is that there's nothing about mutations that would or should make this process all that complicated or difficult. They're still mortal, they still suffer from infections and bleed out, they're still born to die in endless strife. Treating them as anything but any other mortal is a mistake, even if something in the new Lunar book tried to present it otherwise.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                          Eh.

                          I could see a strong case for beast-folk with purely cosmetic alterations and Flaws (rather than mutations).
                          I agree with this.

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                          • #28
                            [QUOTE=Prince of the Night;n1424828]
                            Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                            I am curious how you keep looking for that, but that's not a large impediment.

                            Summoning up the demons and acquiring the materials at the scale to do this as you would propose would entail a great deal of effort, but it's certainly doable for the person willing to commit.

                            The big question is, who's going to teach them how to farm?

                            Very Valid point another reason you might just buy a hundred or so agricultural slaves from the guild and get them to build a village for you

                            You can add in a few more slaves every now and then or try the neomah strategy.

                            I think it might help if you clarified why you're asking these questions? Are you planning a campaign and this Is this for an NPC or setting element you want to introduce? Are you playing in a campaign and you want to have your PC set up this demon-administered slave society? Or is this just a thought experiment?

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
                              This is yet another reason why I loathe this Lunar-beastman proximity error connection, and wish that 3e would have just axed it.
                              Let's not drag down more unrelated threads with hangups about Fangs at the Gate.


                              I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                              Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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                              • #30
                                [QUOTE=Carl.ollivier;n1424882]
                                Originally posted by Prince of the Night View Post


                                I think it might help if you clarified why you're asking these questions? Are you planning a campaign and this Is this for an NPC or setting element you want to introduce? Are you playing in a campaign and you want to have your PC set up this demon-administered slave society? Or is this just a thought experiment?


                                Its mostly a thought experiment, though I did do pretty much this once in a 2nd edition game I ran.
                                Last edited by Prince of the Night; 11-19-2020, 09:25 AM.


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