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Interpreting Canon Demons.

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

    If they didn't have those mutations they wouldn't meaningfully be beastfolk. Making something as beastfolk would require mutations. And besides, it's not like being human would logically entitle them to special treatment where the neomah are concerned, any more so than any other type of mutant. They have a few tiny benefits, not God-Blood, a spiritual gift, or Exaltation. This is yet another reason why I loathe this Lunar-beastman proximity error connection, and wish that 3e would have just axed it.
    I'm not saying you give a neomah flesh from a human and flesh from a wolf, they won't have Fangs, Enhanced Senses, and Unusual Hide like the wolf-folk of the Nameless Lair.

    I'm just saying they might not be able to speak in a human voice, but only a wolf's howl.

    Or they might be able to speak like a human, and integrate into human society much of the time, but constantly resist the urge to look at humans as meat.

    It's rough, but if you work with demons to create human-animal hybrids using their mysterious and terrifying flesh-magic, what did you expect?

    Or it might turn out totally fine.

    But it's certainly not something you can rely on.

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    • #32
      Think Its fair enough to mention 2nd Edition Demons?


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      • #33
        Originally posted by habitableexoplanet View Post

        I'm not saying you give a neomah flesh from a human and flesh from a wolf, they won't have Fangs, Enhanced Senses, and Unusual Hide like the wolf-folk of the Nameless Lair.

        I'm just saying they might not be able to speak in a human voice, but only a wolf's howl.

        Or they might be able to speak like a human, and integrate into human society much of the time, but constantly resist the urge to look at humans as meat.

        It's rough, but if you work with demons to create human-animal hybrids using their mysterious and terrifying flesh-magic, what did you expect?

        Or it might turn out totally fine.

        But it's certainly not something you can rely on.
        The only way I'd accept that as transpiring is if you didn't tell the Maker of Flesh that you had commissioned to make them beastfolk, and they went about indulging... other sensibilities. Beastfolk aren't special. The Lunar Chosen-Blooded a la 1e who could shift between human, beast, and full-on Deadly Beastman Transformation? Those are special, and also capable of far, far more than a mortal hero with some mutations. It's like the difference between the MHA quirks that make their holders godlike vs. the ones with quirks that give them odd faces.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

          Let's not drag down more unrelated threads with hangups about Fangs at the Gate.
          It's a problem that stretches back to 1e but whatever.

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          • #35
            Onto something else? Ok if I bring up 2nd edition Demons

            I was shocked to see Tinsinia were the creation of lucien after thinking about it for a bit I came to the conclusion I Probaly applied a false romantacism to him.

            any ideas why I would?


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            • #36
              Originally posted by Prince of the Night View Post
              Onto something else? Ok if I bring up 2nd edition Demons
              Yes, if you include references so we know where to look for more details.

              TINSIANA, the Scorpion Demons (Compass of Celestial Directions: Malfeas p150) progeny of LUCIEN, Guardian of Sleep (The Books of Sorcery Volumn V: Rolls of Glorious Divinity 2, pg 64.
              Originally posted by Prince of the Night View Post
              I probably applied a false romanticism to him. Any ideas why I would?
              No, idea. The Guardian of Sleep clearly helps those in power sleep peacefully by hunting down rebels. He's not the Sandman.
              Last edited by Greyman; 11-21-2020, 05:36 AM.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

                The only way I'd accept that as transpiring is if you didn't tell the Maker of Flesh that you had commissioned to make them beastfolk, and they went about indulging... other sensibilities. Beastfolk aren't special.
                Yeah, but are the examples habitableexoplanet such a big deal? His two fanciful examples are mute and a creepy intimacy, but with thematic ties in a particular beastman origins as a Neomah's artistic work - and depending on circunstances, not something an individual sorcerous master would notice soon enough or care to varying degrees according to that individuals sensibilities or priorities.

                Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
                The Lunar Chosen-Blooded a la 1e who could shift between human, beast, and full-on Deadly Beastman Transformation? Those are special, and also capable of far, far more than a mortal hero with some mutations. It's like the difference between the MHA quirks that make their holders godlike vs. the ones with quirks that give them odd faces.
                True. That kind of shapeshifting already enters into the terrain of charms at least a little and possessing it is a definite sign of being much more than just your average beastman. It's more like the difference between a simple magical bauble represented by a 1-2 artifact or thaumaturgy rite and the wonders of 3-5 artifacts and their evocation trees or Sorcery, i guess.
                Last edited by Baaldam; 11-21-2020, 08:50 AM.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

                  It's a problem that stretches back to 1e but whatever.
                  Well it would appear so are hangups about Lunars dragging down unrelated threads. I mentioned that book just because an example of somebody ridiculously hung up on it elsewhere doing some particular damage is fresh on my mind. A person that pursued past the point of having to be told by mods to stop and needed kicking out.


                  I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                  Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Prince of the Night View Post

                    Very Valid point another reason you might just buy a hundred or so agricultural slaves from the guild and get them to build a village for you
                    In terms of capability, it would take a bit of an excess of effort, but a Solar who wished to establish some kind of grand plantation with a terra nova kind of population is within their capabilities to summon a bunch of demons to aid in constructing a base of humans whose heritage can be minimised, bring in a number of purchasable humans to see to their raising and giving them a base of agricultural knowledge, and then applying them to purposes of cultivation thereafter.

                    I'd probably be more critical of the idea of somebody doing this if I hadn't brushed up on the life of astronomer Tycho Brahe recently. That guy wasn't nearly so odd of course, but he did come to a new estate with some grand ideas for organising the farmers who'd been used to running their own affairs and had his general eccentricities.

                    I'm actually thinking about how wanting additional people for labour purposes is a fairly straightforward motive, and even the kind of thing you don't really need to be a sorcerer for. The conditions for summoning neomah are fairly accessible, and you end up with a demon that is not super aggressive and doesn't really want anything for themselves, anything beyond the function you'd want them for. All you really need to do is maybe not try and impede them when they decide that it's time to move on, which might be the kind of thing that can be overcome with appeals and negotiations.


                    I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                    Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                      In terms of capability, it would take a bit of an excess of effort, but a Solar who wished to establish some kind of grand plantation with a terra nova kind of population is within their capabilities to summon a bunch of demons to aid in constructing a base of humans whose heritage can be minimised, bring in a number of purchasable humans to see to their raising and giving them a base of agricultural knowledge, and then applying them to purposes of cultivation thereafter.

                      I'd probably be more critical of the idea of somebody doing this if I hadn't brushed up on the life of astronomer Tycho Brahe recently. That guy wasn't nearly so odd of course, but he did come to a new estate with some grand ideas for organising the farmers who'd been used to running their own affairs and had his general eccentricities.

                      I'm actually thinking about how wanting additional people for labour purposes is a fairly straightforward motive, and even the kind of thing you don't really need to be a sorcerer for. The conditions for summoning neomah are fairly accessible, and you end up with a demon that is not super aggressive and doesn't really want anything for themselves, anything beyond the function you'd want them for. All you really need to do is maybe not try and impede them when they decide that it's time to move on, which might be the kind of thing that can be overcome with appeals and negotiations.
                      ]


                      Probaly want to instill Ties of affection or love for the babies into the adults just to be safe.

                      Oh on the whole Selling Neomah created babies into slavery thing? Uncle toms Cabin contains a reference to a baby being sold for $50


                      probaly not as much as the trader lost when the mother in despair commited suicide


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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Baaldam View Post

                        Yeah, but are the examples habitableexoplanet such a big deal? His two fanciful examples are mute and a creepy intimacy, but with thematic ties in a particular beastman origins as a Neomah's artistic work - and depending on circunstances, not something an individual sorcerous master would notice soon enough or care to varying degrees according to that individuals sensibilities or priorities.
                        That's still a matter of (sunglasses on) calibration than something inherently special about beastfolk. I can see a neomah needing an example if only told "beastfolk", but not if you run through the parameters of what that entails - all the traits of a human, has some extra traits from another animal, etc.

                        True. That kind of shapeshifting already enters into the terrain of charms at least a little and possessing it is a definite sign of being much more than just your average beastman. It's more like the difference between a simple magical bauble represented by a 1-2 artifact or thaumaturgy rite and the wonders of 3-5 artifacts and their evocation trees or Sorcery, i guess.
                        It also doesn't immediately paint you as suspicious to the Realm, because a setting where Lunars are leaning heavily on beastfolk is probably a setting where the Realm rounds up and kills beastfolk regularly where it has the reach and means. That can make a lot of anti-Realm asymmetric warfare... difficult, what with nowhere to blend in or mill about.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by habitableexoplanet View Post

                          I'm not saying you give a neomah flesh from a human and flesh from a wolf, they won't have Fangs, Enhanced Senses, and Unusual Hide like the wolf-folk of the Nameless Lair.

                          I'm just saying they might not be able to speak in a human voice, but only a wolf's howl.

                          Or they might be able to speak like a human, and integrate into human society much of the time, but constantly resist the urge to look at humans as meat.

                          It's rough, but if you work with demons to create human-animal hybrids using their mysterious and terrifying flesh-magic, what did you expect?

                          Or it might turn out totally fine.

                          But it's certainly not something you can rely on.

                          I say it depends on how they go about doing it. Neomah craft using the Crafting Rules. More ambitious Projects could make more humanoid beings with Beastman benefits. But Neomah just like to create and some aren't going to be involved with less ambition and you could get a puppy with a babies face.


                          It is a time for great deeds!

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
                            It also doesn't immediately paint you as suspicious to the Realm, because a setting where Lunars are leaning heavily on beastfolk is probably a setting where the Realm rounds up and kills beastfolk regularly where it has the reach and means. That can make a lot of anti-Realm asymmetric warfare... difficult, what with nowhere to blend in or mill about.
                            If it helps, I squared that circle by making beast-folk a maligned under-caste used for slave labour.


                            Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                              If it helps, I squared that circle by making beast-folk a maligned under-caste used for slave labour.
                              I always wondered if they would essentially had to have had an Edict from the Empress limiting Beastmen DragonBlooded to Cadet Houses due to... the Immaculate concerns.


                              It is a time for great deeds!

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                                I always wondered if they would essentially had to have had an Edict from the Empress limiting Beastmen DragonBlooded to Cadet Houses due to... the Immaculate concerns.
                                We're straying firmly into homebrew territory now, but yes. That's exactly how I handled it. Of course a Dynast might have horns, but of course they're not beast-folk -- they are a Dynast with horns. Totally different. *cough**cough*


                                Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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