Interpreting Canon Demons.

[Prince of the Night]

[QUOTE=Isator Levi;n1424797]

I am curious how you keep looking for that, but that's not a large impediment.

Summoning up the demons and acquiring the materials at the scale to do this as you would propose would entail a great deal of effort, but it's certainly doable for the person willing to commit.

The big question is, who's going to teach them how to farm?

Very Valid point another reason you might just buy a hundred or so agricultural slaves from the guild and get them to build a village for you

You can add in a few more slaves every now and then or try the neomah strategy.

[Isator Levi]

I think its valid to try creating serfdom

I am curious how you keep looking for that, but that's not a large impediment.

Summoning up the demons and acquiring the materials at the scale to do this as you would propose would entail a great deal of effort, but it's certainly doable for the person willing to commit.

The big question is, who's going to teach them how to farm?

Whereas free workers have incentives to work harder and develop new techniques, since it directly contributes to their own success.

Innovation against something other than absolute necessity requires both freedom and already existing abundance to create a security net, mind. When farmers and artisans are operating at barely above subsistence level, risky experimentation is a bad idea when it might jeopardize your actual life. People stick to processes that are ultimately inefficient but tried and true for generations when exploring the alternative might end up down paths that lead to you starving to death or being reduced to begging (different values determine which is considered worse).

[Prince of the Night]

Hmmmn on the whole serfdom thing?

What demons could help with it currently I see ermithoi and Agata to find hunt escapee's

If we use some of the demons from 2nd edition though... Firmin would be invaluable for providing tools

Thought about Tinsinia for a moment or two, But decided if you want contented well b ehaved serfs not Terrified slaves, then their a bad idea.

Aalu can handle buerucratic side of things.


any other ideas?

[nalak42]

The best case scenario for creating individuals to be serfs would be a scenario where the kid is being given to existing serfs. Its a bit of a different story between creating a bunch of infants to have them raised with the logic that doing the whole serf thing is natural and normal for them vs "Hi, welcome to my territory figured I'd lay out some rules and services I offer my serfs. Like if you happy couple you eventually decide you want kids, but you don't want to go through the risks and complications of child bearing, or it just isn't working for you; let me know I'll get some things running and we can get a neomah here to make a baby or two for you."

[Kelly Pedersen]

I think its valid to try creating serfdom

Depends on what you mean by "valid".

If you mean "is this possible at all", then, yeah. Lots of things in Exalted are possible. The specifically proposed method, though, of using neomah, probably won't work for a couple of reasons. First, as others have pointed out, neomah make babies, not full-grown adults. So you're going to have to raise them to adulthood (which will be more difficult than typical children, as I'll get into in the next point). More critically, though, neomah aren't genetic engineers as we picture them in science fiction. They make children using the traits of the beings they weave flesh from. So if you don't start with someone or something with a "naturally servile" trait, you can't get a neomah-made child with it. And I don't think there's any creature in Creation that currently has that trait. Certainly no humans with it.


Now, even if you can create "naturally servile" people to be your serfs (or, let's be honest: your slaves), the plan might not work out the way you actually want it to. The Exalted are powerful enough to implement a lot of plans. But the Exaltation doesn't provide wisdom, the ability to realize whether something is a good plan. And I really don't think this is a good one. First of all, it's going to get a lot of people mad at you. This is textbook "monstrous Anathema" behavior, and will put you high on the Wyld Hunt's list of "people to kill yesterday". And you'll probably get a ton of wandering heroic types dropping in just to try to stomp the mad sorcerer king who's creating a slave race. And the whole "stereotypical Anathema behavior" might get a fair number of Solars and Lunars coming after you who aren't super-morally motivated, but still don't want someone so blatantly proving all the Immaculate stories so completely right, either.

And even once you get past all the people trying to stop you, your society is just going to be not that good, on an economic level (as well as the moral one!). There's pretty good evidence from history that slave societies get out-competed by free ones. In the United States, for instance, the northern states before the Civil War were significantly more economically developed: more industry, more agricultural production, more trade, and more immigration and population growth, compared to the southern states where slavery was common. And the reason's pretty obvious when you think about it. Slaves have no reason to work harder, to innovate, to do anything beyond the absolute bare minimum they can get away with without punishment, and the more motivated and innovative one is, the more likely they are to put that energy into escaping, not working to benefit their master. Whereas free workers have incentives to work harder and develop new techniques, since it directly contributes to their own success.

So, what you're proposing is a society where a large portion of the population is enslaved, and lacks the fundamental drive and motivation to even try to break out of that situation. It's going to be inherently less productive than the societies around it due to that. It's also going to function even at the basic level, the "unskilled" tasks you're suggesting they be used for, worse than its surrounding neighbors. Because the jobs that "serfs" did generally weren't "unskilled". They required training and learning, and needed adaptability and problem-solving skills to overcome the unexpected challenges that arose. Someone who's "naturally servile" is going to be bad at all that - they'll learn more slowly, because they lack imagination and the ability to make connections, and when differences in routine arise (and they will), they won't be able to cope with them nearly as well.


Finally, there's the question on whether you mean "valid" in the sense of "I shouldn't be judged for suggesting this idea". In which case, all I can say is sorry, dude, but you're gonna get judged. Exalted isn't actually a "morally neutral" game (whatever that means). Its authors have taken ethical stances. People in Creation may practice slavery, but the authors don't think that's right. Things like slavery, the rampant imperial exploitation of the Realm, the excesses of the First Age Solars and Lunars, the political corruption of Heaven and some Sidereals, all exist as things the characters can fight, not to give you an excuse to emulate them at your table.

At an even higher level, though, you would likely get pushback on an idea like this no matter what game or fandom you made it in. Slavery is a very real thing, and touches on people's lives. There are still people enslaved in the world today, of course, but the historical legacy of slavery isn't something that's absent either. Some of the stuff you're describing you want your "natural serfs" to be were literally things white people claimed black people actually were, in order to justify enslaving them. And those attitudes and beliefs have absolutely not vanished, despite slavery being (officially!) banned for a century and a half. So making this proposition touches on a lot of emotional issues that are very much present for people in the real world, and you're never going to be able to make it without getting a very negative response. And if you find a place where you can make it without that kind of negative response, I suggest you think very hard about why there wasn't that response. Because the most likely reason for a community to have no pushback against a morally reprehensible idea is because at least some members of the community support the idea, and the rest at least don't want to make an effort speaking against it.

[Eldagusto]

Lunar-created beastfolk explicitly have 6 dots of beneficial mutations and no harmful ones, except insofar as some of the mutations can be inconvenient in certain situations. I don't see any reason that neomah-created human-animal hybrids would have the same property, which I guess is a reflection of Luna's gifts (or the Lunar Exalted's mastery over form). I think it would be appropriately demonic to have a mix of beneficial and harmful consequences.

For the worst case, I note that beastfolk are the equal of humans in their intelligence, their capability of speech, and their flexible arms with opposable thumbs suitable for using tools, but what you get by throwing human and animal flesh at a neomah might not be.

Well it depends how dedicated they are to the project, it is a craft project after all.

[Prince of the Night]

Can Aleuva use Any Craft?

Like Say Make a Warship?

[habitableexoplanet]

If you gave a neomah flesh from a human and another animal they could create a beastman, right?

Lunar-created beastfolk explicitly have 6 dots of beneficial mutations and no harmful ones, except insofar as some of the mutations can be inconvenient in certain situations. I don't see any reason that neomah-created human-animal hybrids would have the same property, which I guess is a reflection of Luna's gifts (or the Lunar Exalted's mastery over form). I think it would be appropriately demonic to have a mix of beneficial and harmful consequences.

For the worst case, I note that beastfolk are the equal of humans in their intelligence, their capability of speech, and their flexible arms with opposable thumbs suitable for using tools, but what you get by throwing human and animal flesh at a neomah might not be.

[JohnDoe244]

So have everyone work toward the production of food just a little bit. Far better than making a slave-race to do it exclusively.

Better.

Or, you know, give folks freedom of choice. Pay them.

Or just play evil characters. It's easier.

I think its valid to try creating serfdom

And it's valid to play a murderer. Play the game That's fun for your table.

My game is about imperialists conquering folks, imposing their religion, and committing genocide. You can absolutely run an Exalted game about setting up serfdom.

But, it's not ethical. It's not a morally good thing. You are playing a character somewhere between "ethically questionable" and "evil".

[Eldagusto]

I think its valid to try creating serfdom

Yes I don’t think anyone is saying it’s not evil to create slaves, this is all seemingly about if people willing to do it would make a viable civilization with it. And it’s no more unviable then things like clone farms, raided slaves and mutated slave castes.

[Eldagusto]

No, the neomah would need to get the material from the human and animal themselves. (Also the terminology going forward is beastfolk.)

Vance already ruled that you can't just go collecting Dragon-Blooded fingers to give a neomah to make Dragon-Blooded kids, for instance..

That’s different because creating Dragonblooded needs dragon blooded to participate in a progenitive act as it uses up their stored genesis potential when having babies. Giving Neomah animal parts is kosher, how is it not. They can remake a new infant out of stillborn ones given to them this is no different. Beastmen and mutants aren’t Dragonblooded. And I argue that using Dead Dragonblooded parts to create offspring wouldnt make Dragonblooded babies but the beings created would count as the relatives of Dragonblooded for the purpose of of their children can pass on the blessing of Exaltation.

[Prince of the Night]

I think its valid to try creating serfdom

[Elfive]

I'm pretty sure that bit was just cos of the exaltation thing. Nothing in the writeup suggests they need consent to make anything else.

[TheCountAlucard]

If you gave a neomah flesh from a human and another animal they could create a beastman, right?

No, the neomah would need to get the material from the human and animal themselves. (Also the terminology going forward is beastfolk.)

Vance already ruled that you can't just go collecting Dragon-Blooded fingers to give a neomah to make Dragon-Blooded kids, for instance..

[Elfive]

If you gave a neomah flesh from a human and another animal they could create a beastman, right?