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How do you run the Fair Folk?

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  • Isator Levi
    replied
    Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
    Still, Robert Vance was the one who wrote the Fair Folk in Masters of Jade. If that standard is maintained in how they are written going forwards, I expect I shall have nothing to worry about.
    No, no I don't like this now. I find it unpleasant, and regret having gone to it. My apologies.

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  • Isator Levi
    replied
    Originally posted by Dex Davican View Post
    I can't speak for what the devs will do, but my hope is that they do not try to shoehorn the Fair Folk into being PCs in Ex3. They can be much stronger--as setting elements and as threats--if they're kept as NPCs. Your stance on Bugs Bunny (and I can't believe I just used that turn of phrase) is a good argument for just that. We don't have to find sympathetic motivations for the Fair Folk. We can argue over whether Bugs is a moral person, but he's indisputably a moral actor, and the Fair Folk aren't. Exalted is about how people deal with power, and Fair Folk PCs distract from that much like an overemphasis on Primordials did.

    And if players really want to create playable Fair Folk, they'll be able to use Exigents as design blueprints.
    Setting aside all notions of being playable, this strikes me as a standard that excludes any notion of something like a fairy godmother that is not totally disingenuous.

    Among innumerable other archetypes and interesting narrative roles with a bit more nuance.

    Hell, it sounds like something that narrows down even the villainous quality of them, to not imagine one who's all about reacting to violations of rules (an incredibly fae thing in folklore), even if the rules are pretty arbitrary.

    Where's the Man with the Thistle-Down Hair, who is really genuinely fond of this person that was born into slavery and will think nothing of slaughtering people in pursuit of the knowledge of the name given him by the mother he never knew?

    Still, Robert Vance was the one who wrote the Fair Folk in Masters of Jade. If that standard is maintained in how they are written going forwards, I expect I shall have nothing to worry about.

    (Why the perspective that having a stance on one of the classic characters of American artistry is an odd thing to state? Won more Oscars than I have.)
    Last edited by Isator Levi; 12-07-2020, 08:16 AM.

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  • JohnDoe244
    replied
    Originally posted by Dex Davican View Post
    I can't speak for what the devs will do, but my hope is that they do not try to shoehorn the Fair Folk into being PCs in Ex3.

    And if players really want to create playable Fair Folk, they'll be able to use Exigents as design blueprints.
    This.

    I like the idea of playing a fae creature. I do. I loved Changeling The Dreaming. I never actually played a fae in Exalted and Graceful Wicked Masks was not useful to me as ST.

    Fae are interesting. They can be used to tell interesting stories. But they're stronger if bespoke to the needs of the story being told. I'd love a sourcebook about using the Raksha as NPCs. Actual PC rules? No interest.

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  • Dex Davican
    replied
    Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
    Additionally, apart from the idea that justification of extreme and often cruel responses on an interpersonal level by citing violations of unilaterally imposed rules being a noteworthy abusive behaviour, you at least want some framework for predatory Fair Folk behaviour to be a thing with some ambiguity or even where some people would regard them as in the right.

    Otherwise I see a hard time in them providing narrative roles besides antagonists, let alone being Player Characters that can at least function in mixed games (and possibly at all).

    We want there to be Raksha that can be plausibly befriended, do we not? I propose that a standard of Fair Folk that is incompatible with Glittering Serpent Princess (particularly the potential for her marriage to be reasonably sincere) requires some workshopping.
    I can't speak for what the devs will do, but my hope is that they do not try to shoehorn the Fair Folk into being PCs in Ex3. They can be much stronger--as setting elements and as threats--if they're kept as NPCs. Your stance on Bugs Bunny (and I can't believe I just used that turn of phrase) is a good argument for just that. We don't have to find sympathetic motivations for the Fair Folk. We can argue over whether Bugs is a moral person, but he's indisputably a moral actor, and the Fair Folk aren't. Exalted is about how people deal with power, and Fair Folk PCs distract from that much like an overemphasis on Primordials did.

    And if players really want to create playable Fair Folk, they'll be able to use Exigents as design blueprints.

    Leave a comment:


  • Isator Levi
    replied
    Additionally, apart from the idea that justification of extreme and often cruel responses on an interpersonal level by citing violations of unilaterally imposed rules being a noteworthy abusive behaviour, you at least want some framework for predatory Fair Folk behaviour to be a thing with some ambiguity or even where some people would regard them as in the right.

    Otherwise I see a hard time in them providing narrative roles besides antagonists, let alone being Player Characters that can at least function in mixed games (and possibly at all).

    We want there to be Raksha that can be plausibly befriended, do we not? I propose that a standard of Fair Folk that is incompatible with Glittering Serpent Princess (particularly the potential for her marriage to be reasonably sincere) requires some workshopping.

    Leave a comment:


  • Isator Levi
    replied
    Originally posted by Dex Davican View Post
    Bugs Bunny is more Lunar inspiration than Fair Folk, for me. Partially because he operates under a narrative rule of never throwing the first punch—it isn’t hunger that drives him, but a trickster’s sense of fairness.
    Redressing some arbitrary grievance feels to me like one of the most basic things from folklore that should inspire the Fair Folk, and that it can be most emphatic when one confines itself behind that.

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  • Dex Davican
    replied
    Bugs Bunny is more Lunar inspiration than Fair Folk, for me. Partially because he operates under a narrative rule of never throwing the first punch—it isn’t hunger that drives him, but a trickster’s sense of fairness.

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  • TheCountAlucard
    replied
    You know, I'd never actually seen "Rebel Rabbit" until today; among other things, he ties up the railroads (literally, with a bow), returns Manhattan to the Natives, puts "Bugs Bunny Wuz Here" on a number of locales, steals the keys from the Panama Canal, fills in the Grand Canyon, saws off Florida, puts red stripes on the Washington Monument, and claims a bench as his property.
    Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 12-06-2020, 11:54 AM.

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  • Isator Levi
    replied
    Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
    My point wasn’t to change the topic to what is and isn’t communism - it was that I wasn’t entirely satisfied with the 1e Fair Folk book’s use of Looney Tunes as a suggested reference, because frankly the Looney Tunes aren’t quite so predatory.
    I dunno; in the old school cartoons, Bugs Bunny might just destroy you if you offered him offence.

    There's that one short in which he's furious that the Federal government places the bounty on rabbits as so low, and when the DoA official says it's because they're so harmless sets out to prove him wrong by just going on a rampage across the nation. That's where the gif of him sawing off Florida comes from, and I believe that episode also contains instances of him leveling mountains and redirecting rivers. I'm sure he closes up the Grand Canyon in it.

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  • TheCountAlucard
    replied
    My point wasn’t to change the topic to what is and isn’t communism - it was that I wasn’t entirely satisfied with the 1e Fair Folk book’s use of Looney Tunes as a suggested reference, because frankly the Looney Tunes aren’t quite so predatory.

    But you know who are?

    The Monstars.

    They live in the same world of consequence-free violence where you can get shot, eaten, burnt to ashes, and disintegrated and just have a Band-Aid on it the next scene; and they say, “You’re going to be attractions in our boss’s theme park.”
    Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 12-06-2020, 10:11 AM.

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  • Ghosthead
    replied
    Er... Yeah I think we are perhaps veering a bit OT from the Fair Folk when getting into discussing the possible anti-capitalist subtext message of (checks notes) 1990s Michael Jordan sneaker sales and Loony Tunes merchandising promotion vehicle Space Jam?

    Disorganized musings: I don't really have much of a contribution on how to characterize the Fair Folk though... but I would say that Fair Folk draw on a rich literary tradition of satirising nobility by playing on the contrast between rules of noble, etiquette and formalities of noble hierarchy, and "madness".

    Alice's Red Queen is probably a somewhat particular culturally iconic example. Maybe Alice is underrated as usable a Fair Folk source? (You can even use the Disney one, perhaps if you're some kind of self-identified Millennial "Disney kid", and not a similarly aged Disney hater such as myself, if you want!) What are other well realized film examples of "Hero explores a crazy fairyland of magical, somewhat predatory creatures with strange rules and customs". (Other culturally iconic examples where child/adult crosses over to madland narratives maybe are those things are those live action-animation blends, like Roger Rabbit. Perhaps Wizard of Oz?).

    The default mode of a Fair Folk court tends to be nobility - you might be able to draw on more Kafka-esque, mad bureaucracy motifs (and thus possibly more usable modern material?) if you chose to play Fair Folk courts with more of those (which is not the Exalted default really!).

    One aspect of playing on the Fair Folk as monomaniac narrative self creations is that it tends to weaken the bonds of blood-loyalty that serve as a check on the venality of nobility in narrative. Something like the Dynasty generally is counterbalanced by the fact that in the end the Dynasts will often fight to the death loyally for their blood against the outsider, the interloper. Fair Folk have the trappings of such nobility, but their actual relationships are a parody of feuding courtiers, motivated entirely by hierarchy, ambition and expediency. All that's grandiloquent and surface oriented and toxic about courtly life comes to the fore in them.

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  • DrLoveMonkey
    replied
    https://youtu.be/Ntf5_ue2Lzw

    That whole movie is good inspiration, but this one scene could definitely be a powerful fairy lord.

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  • JohnDoe244
    replied
    Guys, I beg you, Off-topic.

    Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
    One has to treat the Fair Folk as people because incomprehensible creatures can't exist. Any creature has to seek its own preservation, and thus cannot avoid being predictable once you understand its needs.

    There is no mystery that remains mysterious when understood, just as a secret ceases to be secret once made public.

    Fair Folk can still be horribly Other from humanity in that what they need to continue existing as a species is fundamentally hostile to what humanity needs. Whether that need is destroying Creation or consuming human souls.

    So even though both species are people, neither can truly afford to treat the other as equals. Each is a threat to the others' existence, merely by existing. There can be peace between individuals, but never between the species as a whole.
    I don't know.

    You can approach elderich horrors obliquely.

    That is to say, you could include fae in your games who you literally can't sit down and have a conversation with, or punch in the face. Like that unshaped city... I wanna say Sawar?

    I mean look at the entire Cthulu mythos, and how Lovecrafian RPGs pit you against cults and servants of the Great Old Ones.

    You could pitch an alien, outside threat as an unknowable horror. A feat of nature instead of a rational being.
    Last edited by JohnDoe244; 12-06-2020, 04:48 AM.

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  • TheCountAlucard
    replied
    Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
    Because communism wasn't exploitative.
    It’s a little weird for a person who’s quick to call assholes who call themselves Christians “Pharisees,” yet take authoritarian governments who call themselves “Communist” at their word.

    Tell me, do you think North Korea is a Democratic People’s Republic?

    Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
    Or its original form, feudalism.
    This is not remotely accurate.

    As for any talk of accountability, all that went out the window when the folks on top decided to make rules allowing them to decide how or even if your vote counts.
    Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 12-05-2020, 11:58 PM.

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  • Sunder the Gold
    replied
    Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
    their existence is bound up in a capitalist system where their alien theme park has to exploit their workers and maintain attractions to give them a never ending stream of customers.
    Because communism wasn't exploitative. Or its original form, feudalism.

    People with power and no accountability exploit others. That's just what happens. If Americans want equal protection under the law, they should stop re-electing local government that hasn't been upholding the law.


    One has to treat the Fair Folk as people because incomprehensible creatures can't exist. Any creature has to seek its own preservation, and thus cannot avoid being predictable once you understand its needs.

    There is no mystery that remains mysterious when understood, just as a secret ceases to be secret once made public.

    Fair Folk can still be horribly Other from humanity in that what they need to continue existing as a species is fundamentally hostile to what humanity needs. Whether that need is destroying Creation or consuming human souls.

    So even though both species are people, neither can truly afford to treat the other as equals. Each is a threat to the others' existence, merely by existing. There can be peace between individuals, but never between the species as a whole.

    Leave a comment:

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