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  • Counter-Grapple Question

    I'm sorry, I know this must have come up before, but I haven't been able to find an answer (lots of similar stuff but not quite this).

    Character A uses a decisive attack on a grapple gambit targeting Character B. Character A gets 4 threshold successes on her control roll, setting up a 4-turn grapple, and delivering a Savage for [some damage].

    On Character B's turn, he also makes a decisive attack, at a -1 penalty, to start a grapple with Character A. Character B also gets 4 successes on the control roll.

    So the question is, where are we now? Are A and B both simultaneously grappling each other at the same time? Mechanically I don't see anything that doesn't work; the two combatants can just keep doing grapple-actions to one another.

    B uses a savage on A, deals [some damage], and reduces A's remaining control turns to 3.
    A Slams B, giving up the rest of his rounds (2) for extra damage, reducing B's turns to 3
    B spends her next 3 turns savaging some more (assuming she isn't damaged again and loses more time)

    Savages and Slams aren't specifically attacks so I don't think either side even takes the -1 penalty for attacking while grappled? A Withering-Savage at least has an attack roll you could penalize (but that can't fail); a Decisive-Savage doesn't even roll to attack so the penalty can't apply.


    Am I missing something? Is there a line I missed somewhere? Intuitively, if it's called a "control" roll I would kind of expect that that only one character can be in control of the grapple (and thus able to take grapple-actions) at a time, and thus a counter-grapple would reduce the original grappler's control instead of establishing a second, parallel grapple. But that doesn't seem to be RAW.
    Last edited by Blackwell; 11-24-2020, 03:44 PM.

  • #2
    The grapple rules at times feel quite poorly thought out, and I think this is another part of where 'we NEED to make specific rules for grapples' has lead into very awkward pit traps. I can't offer you anything concrete beyond 'this is what I'd do in this situation', which is as follows;

    I'd probably assume that the grapple roll for character B, if they win, reduces the control rounds of Character A, and if B reduces it to 0, any extra rounds are applied as B's rounds of control on their grapple of A. This would come with the free grapple action as standard regardless of the result, since B did still hit.

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    • #3
      I would be inclined to say it's possible to have simultaneous grapples as you describe.
      I would probably rule that savages and slams do suffer the -1 penalty, though it isn't as big a deal since they auto-hit.
      I'd also probably count a savage/slam as both hitting with an attack and potentially damaging, meaning that the shared grapples will run out fairly quick.

      It also should be noted that, since the roll to control a grapple and to avoid being controlled are generally the same thing, it should be rare for two people to both be able to grapple each other and expect to do well on the control roll.

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      • #4
        it's not necessarily that uncommon. Larger dice pools can result in larger swings if something ends up outside of expected results. Two buffed Solar Grapplers going at it could end up exchanging 1 round grapples, or one of them could end up getting 12 rounds off of the back of them getting a great roll and the enemy getting a poor one.

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        • #5
          As weird as it sounds, nothing breaks if both are grappling each other in a bizarre clusterfuck of joint locks and everyone counting their own controls and breaking each other's bones.

          But to keep it simple, you might just say no initiating grapples while you are grappled. Without quite some charm investment it's rare for grapples to last more than two turns, even the grappled character can easily slash 2 turns away on his turn on top of the natural countdown.


          Check my Exalted homebrew!

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          • #6
            I would rule that counter grapples reduce rounds of control, like Flare.

            If only because of Charms that throw your target.


            Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Synapse View Post
              As weird as it sounds, nothing breaks if both are grappling each other in a bizarre clusterfuck of joint locks and everyone counting their own controls and breaking each other's bones.
              Yeah, I had worked out that nothing explicitly made it *not* work, other than strangeness around Charms that throw targets around range bands like JohnDoe244 points out. Even the "Throw/Slam" move lands the grapplee at close range so no harm there.

              Okay, so it sounds like at least as-written, my read was correct, and no one has come along and added official clarity? I agree with the house-rule suggestions, just didn't know if this came up in ask-the-devs, discord, or wherever and I missed it.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Blackwell View Post

                Okay, so it sounds like at least as-written, my read was correct, and no one has come along and added official clarity? I agree with the house-rule suggestions, just didn't know if this came up in ask-the-devs, discord, or wherever and I missed it.
                Sorry, I could have sworn I linked this: http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...e-devs/page390

                Your RAW interpretation is correct by Word of Vance.

                Here's a mostly applicable ruling on Charm throws too: http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...06#post1156006
                Last edited by JohnDoe244; 11-25-2020, 01:56 PM.


                Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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                • #9
                  That sounds a lot like he assumed “[A] HTH’s [B] who’s grappling [C]” but I know I remember someone asking “What if you knockback someone who’s grappling you” at least once.

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                  • #10
                    Adding a bit of visual flair to the question.


                    Check my Exalted homebrew!

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post

                      Sorry, I could have sworn I linked this: http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...e-devs/page390

                      Your RAW interpretation is correct by Word of Vance.

                      Here's a mostly applicable ruling on Charm throws too: http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...06#post1156006
                      Much appreciated, sir!

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                      • #12
                        As someone who already supported counter-grapples, this video exceeded my expectations.


                        formerly Tornado Wolf, formerly Inugami

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post

                          As someone who already supported counter-grapples, this video exceeded my expectations.
                          Even animal forms can do it!


                          Check my Exalted homebrew!

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