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Starmetal quantities from gods?

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  • #16
    The starmetal-from gods thing remember originally wasn't how it came aobut. It was pretty meteoric iron without an explanation of why it happened, and apparently rare/valuable neough Sidereals sought-it out. If I remember right, starmetal being from dead gods origianlly showed up in Savant & Sorcerer, and in 2e, wasn't brought-up again until I believe Oadenol's Codex, well into either edition.

    I think generally it's something that was invented to 1) Explain something an author thought was important to explain when it wasn't and 2) Add some level of "Siderelas murder other divine represneatives since they're evil occupying ocnspirators in Heaven" as a narrative. It's there mostly to answer something not needing an answer, add a layer of villainy to Sidereals, and I guess someone thinking turning divine beings into raw materials made for good world building.

    It kind of also just isn't consistent with the setting. As noted, ambrosia made starmetal, and at least before S&S's take, Sidereals looked for starmetal with a genuine "this is a rare, unique hting we are good at tracking" and kind of went with the deconstructive "Oh no, it's really most of the time a murder conspiracy." It has a notable shift to some grimdark tonal practices of later 1e and through a lot of 2e, as well as the "Sidereals are actually an antongist splat" midnset as well, IMHO.

    What the stuff is in 3e is more or less just...actual fallens tars or bits of firnament that sometimes get loose and fall. And to be honest it doesn't need to be more than that to be special magical material IMHO.


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    • #17
      And "the point" of killing a god is the same as the point of killing a wild beast or a human - they're no longer doing whatever you wanted to kill them for.

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      • #18
        There could well still be the element where a defeated god can be required to convert into an Artifact as submission. It is a narrative compelling in its own right.

        I dislike soulforging gods for a few reasons. There was a point at which the writing became very blasé about it. It takes a lot of the concept from soulsteel while leaving aside the visceral quality for it. It provides abundance for something that is introduced as scarce. It weighs down the relationship between Sidereals and spirits.

        But the biggest reason is that it takes a thing called starmetal and gives it a primary source other than falling stars. That's just silly.


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        • #19
          Originally posted by Blaque View Post
          The starmetal-from gods thing remember originally wasn't how it came about. It was pretty meteoric iron without an explanation of why it happened, and apparently rare/valuable neough Sidereals sought-it out. If I remember right, starmetal being from dead gods origianlly showed up in Savant & Sorcerer, and in 2e, wasn't brought-up again until I believe Oadenol's Codex, well into either edition.
          I could be wrong, but I think 1e Sidereals did it first. It was *slightly* different in early mentions IIRC, inasmuch as a god would be killed (often by being tried for drummed-up charges and duly legally executed), but it wasn't their physical body that was transformed into starmetal, but the star in the sky that represented them and fell with their passing. IIRC the idea that a god could be directly converted to Starmetal was a later thing. At the very least, it was a sentiment that fit into a book with such concepts as "You have a charm that makes its target wholly unloveable" and "You have a charm that turns a trusted contact into either a weapon or a getaway car for a scene and then leaves them a vegetable."

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Mockery View Post

            I could be wrong, but I think 1e Sidereals did it first. It was *slightly* different in early mentions IIRC, inasmuch as a god would be killed (often by being tried for drummed-up charges and duly legally executed), but it wasn't their physical body that was transformed into starmetal, but the star in the sky that represented them and fell with their passing. IIRC the idea that a god could be directly converted to Starmetal was a later thing. At the very least, it was a sentiment that fit into a book with such concepts as "You have a charm that makes its target wholly unloveable" and "You have a charm that turns a trusted contact into either a weapon or a getaway car for a scene and then leaves them a vegetable."
            I have to dig a bit, but the main way Sidereals got starmetal from gods was the Charm Terminal Sanction, which meant you had to fight the god and it bound them into an artifact for a year and a day. In fact, the starmetal as a capital punishment actually contradicts what's talked about in the Sidereals book. Execution is in that book reserved for mortals and Dragon-Blooded (ah even thent the game bashed on them) or other short-lived beings relative to gods. Gods are instead usually locked up in torturous situations like buried unde rmoutnains or cages over volcanos, or banished somewhere like the Isles of the Exiles in the 1e book Time of Tumult. Pretty much everything but killing an immortal god is on the table in regards to crimes against a god, so S&S in effect retconned that when it introduced an option to even have capital crimes you coudl make for gods to be put through the grinder, and made them low enough a bar that this is an option done regularly.

            Like, there's flavor-adding meanness to Sidereals in their Charms, yeah. But the starmetal thing is weird because it was not part of the original thing, but kind of a "Migh tas well add to the pile." And rather than being a side effect of your toolbox being filled with especially mean shapes of hammers so you you turn things into nails or veel or whatever as needed, the starmetal from gods thing is external. It's a process introduced that Sidereals opt into to be assholes and effectively occupying thugs in Heaven rather.

            EDIT: Actually, Terminal Sanction doesn't even forge gods into artifacts. It basically just lets you bind spirits of any sort like you can bind demons, as well as creates a round-about way to permanently destory spirits. Nothing in the Sidereal Charmset actually facilitates turning gods into starmetal.
            Last edited by Blaque; 01-25-2021, 05:37 PM.


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            • #21
              Originally posted by Blaque View Post
              Execution is in that book reserved for mortals and Dragon-Blooded (ah even thent the game bashed on them)
              No I believe that would be the game containing characters that bashed on them.

              Originally posted by Blaque
              usually locked up in torturous situations like buried unde rmoutnains or cages over volcanos
              I wonder if those were meant to read as torture so much as extravagant inconvenience ala Journey to the West.

              In any case, still more varied and flavourful than one-size-fits-all soulforging.


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              • #22
                Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                No I believe that would be the game containing characters that bashed on them.
                "Characters" in this case being the entire legal system of heaven.

                This is also the book that said the Mouth of Peace had been turned into mind-scrambled puppet from Sidereals mind controlling her too much.

                ****

                The book that says "Dragon-Blooded [...] are beneath the notice of Celestial Lions and never let into the Celestial City unless accompanied by a god or one of the Celestial Exalted [...] these beings have a status no higher than the lowliest servant [and, having no legal rights or protections] may [be] freely execute[d] [...] living property, like a pet."

                It's also the book that calls Dragon-Blooded "obviously inferior beings", though, I conceed, that's just presented as the opinions of heaven's entire police force.

                Plus having the Immaculate religion being something invented whole cloth by the Sidereals, and portraying them as puppetmasters when the Dragon-Blooded don't even know what threats Creation faces.

                Lytek viewing the Dragon-Blooded as "pets" is a character bashing on Dragon-Blooded (he does, that's in there too -- "interesting" pets, at least).
                The legal system of Yu-Shan describing Dragon-Blooded as having no rights or legal protections "like a pet" is pretty solidly the game bashing on Dragon-Blooded.
                Last edited by JohnDoe244; 01-25-2021, 10:35 PM.


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                • #23
                  Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                  "Characters" in this case being the entire legal system of heaven.

                  This is also the book that said the Mouth of Peace had been turned into mind-scrambled puppet from Sidereals mind controlling her too much.
                  The book also earlier said "lesser beings, like mortals and Dragon-Blooded".

                  Throughout Exalted's history, especially in context of Yu-Shan, it has often taken a fairly negative tone to the Terrestrial Exalted. 2e was worse about it, but 1e wasn't good about it either.


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                  • #24
                    Did First Edition give the impression that Yu-Shan was a place with the right perspective on anything?

                    Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                    The legal system of Yu-Shan describing Dragon-Blooded as having no rights or legal protections "like a pet" is pretty solidly the game bashing on Dragon-Blooded.
                    Or it's just another section of prejudiced characters within the fiction that ironically juxtaposes against how powerful the Dragon Blooded were in Creation.
                    Last edited by Isator Levi; 01-25-2021, 11:15 PM.


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                    • #25
                      I for one feel as though the game writing Celestial Lions as really self-righteous about how incorruptible they are and then being presented with numerous ways in which they don't live up to that as conveying something about how seriously their opinions are to be taken and how much they align with the out-of-character attitude of the game.

                      That maybe Yu-Shan looking down on the Dragon Blooded is as much a reflection of writer attitudes as Dragon Blooded looking down on literally all other humans. It would be like taking Realm propaganda about slaves at face value.


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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                        This question makes no sense.
                        I was trying to be funny. I guess my special brand of humor loses something when it is simply being read.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                          Did First Edition give the impression that Yu-Shan was a place with the right perspective on anything?



                          Or it's just another section of prejudiced characters within the fiction that ironically juxtaposes against how powerful the Dragon Blooded were in Creation.
                          "That's just the opinion of the Celestial Lions."

                          And the god of Exaltation. And the legal system of Yu-Shan. And the Chapter Fiction about mind controlling the Mouth of Peace. And the Storytelling Chapter about how ignorant the Dragon-Blooded are. And the Background Chapter saying their religion is constructed by Sidereals. And the glossary calling their religion a lie. And the choice of language used by the writers.

                          I'm not going to be Peleps Delad over this: you're entitled to your interpretation of the texts. But if you're going to cherry pick out a single part of my argument, please don't restate an argument I've already refuted in the part of the post you've ignored.

                          It's not just the attitudes of Celestial Lions. And there's no juxtaposition when the text specifically diminishes the DB's power in Creation by making their religion a constructed lie, their chief religious figure a mind controlled puppet, and talks about Sidereals dealing with threats the Dragon-Blooded don't even know about, in addition to the bigotry of Celestial Lions, and the legal system of heaven, and the opinions of the god of Exaltation. "The Dragon-Blooded are powerful in Creation, but weak in heaven... and also they're not really powerful in Creation" isn't "juxtaposition". It's bashing on Dragon-Blooded.

                          Nothing about Exalted: The Sidereals casts the Dragon-Blooded in a positive light.

                          And this is where I bow out. You have your opinion, I have mine, and I'm leaving this thread as we're no longer talking about Starmetal.
                          Last edited by JohnDoe244; 01-26-2021, 07:57 AM.


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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                            Or it's just another section of prejudiced characters within the fiction that ironically juxtaposes against how powerful the Dragon Blooded were in Creation.
                            The problem with an ironic juxtaposition like that is that it ignores both the power disparity between Celestial Exalted and Dragon-Blooded, as well as the different ways they experience prejudice.


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                            • #29
                              It seems to me that a tangent concerning the portrayal of the Dragon Blooded is a thing better suited to the thread focused on that topic, so I'm going to respond to it there.


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