Why is Tiger Warrior Training locked behind so many Charms? (2nd Ed)

[Daredevil]

Tiger Warrior Training is locked behind a lot of War Charms (5 total) in 2nd Edition, & I am not sure why.

Is rapid training mortals to fight such a huge advantage to require so many speed bumps?

[JohnDoe244]

2E mechanics are just bad.

3E is two Charms, but it's Essence 2 so you can't start with it without Supernal or other bumps.

[Daredevil]

Ah. So in 3rd Ed you have to buy your Essence by 1 point to gain access, but no 'speed bump' charms.

You have to buy your Essence by 1 point for Tiger Warrior Training (E3), and another for Legendary Warrior Curriculum (E4) in 2nd Ed, so I can see a parallel.

Yeah, I just wasn't sure if there was a balance issue that required 5 speed bump Charms for the effect, or some other logic I am missing.

Does anyone know of any reason any of the writers shared for the long, big investment into martial Training in 2nd/2.5 Edition?

Does it make your Combat Units so powerful in Mass Combat to require those nerfs?

[Critian Caceorte]

Ah. So in 3rd Ed you have to buy your Essence by 1 point to gain access, but no 'speed bump' charms.

Well, you don't "buy" points of Essence, you have to spend XP on other stuff for your Essence to increase.

[Heavy Arms]

The 2e Errata addressed this by moving Tiger Warrior Training's immediate prerequisite to having none of it's own. So with the errata it's only one Charm between you and the one you want.

Beyond that? I think I'd be a bit more cautious about calling things "speed bumps," even if they cause you to buy things in an other you might not immediately want. All of the five Charms before pre-Errata TWT are solid Charms a War focused character is going to want to have. One Excellency is in there after all.

2e Mass Combat also worked with a very different approach where mass combat units where treated more like equipment that the commander wears. That means highly trained combat units, even of otherwise mortal NPCs, can provide a significant boost to a character's potency that's still going to stack with everything else they've got (including Charms). So the logic of it being a bit deeper is there, whereas 3e Battle Groups are independent "NPCs" and making one a bit tougher doesn't mean it directly boosts the commander's combat effectiveness.

[Daredevil]

The 2e Errata addressed this by moving Tiger Warrior Training's immediate prerequisite to having none of it's own. So with the errata it's only one Charm between you and the one you want.

Huzzah! Wonderful.

Thank you, Heavy Arms. I completely missed that.

And thank you, Team Errata, wherever you may be out in Internet Land.

Beyond that? I think I'd be a bit more cautious about calling things "speed bumps," even if they cause you to buy things in an other you might not immediately want. All of the five Charms before pre-Errata TWT are solid Charms a War focused character is going to want to have. One Excellency is in there after all.

Yes. You are correct.

I lacked the eloquence to communicate this properly in the initial post, but what I wanted (& failed) to communicate is the question of: are they speed bumps or does everything follow in this Charm progression for a reason I am missing.

2e Mass Combat also worked with a very different approach where mass combat units where treated more like equipment that the commander wears. That means highly trained combat units, even of otherwise mortal NPCs, can provide a significant boost to a character's potency that's still going to stack with everything else they've got (including Charms). So the logic of it being a bit deeper is there, whereas 3e Battle Groups are independent "NPCs" and making one a bit tougher doesn't mean it directly boosts the commander's combat effectiveness.

Ah. Thank you.

Does changing up the progression of Charms (say, starting with making Tigger Warriors before acquiring the other War Charms that were formally Tigger Warrior Training’ prerequisites) unbalance or alter the flow of Mass Combat progression?

I personally just love the concept of the Solar that brings empowerment & enlightenment to others, so I am grateful you made me aware of the Errata I missed.

Is anyone aware of any Mass Combat tutorials for 2nd Edition I could use to refamiliar myself with?

I got a lot out of Kasumi’s Exalted 2nd Edition Combat 201 (https://thor.divnull.com/pub/exalted/201X.pdf, OR https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?thre...at-201.252712/), & would love to use something like that to improve my understanding, if it exists.

Well, you don't "buy" points of Essence, you have to spend XP on other stuff for your Essence to increase.

Interesting. Which Traits do you purchase?

[Mockery]

Interesting. Which Traits do you purchase?

Pretty much any of them. 3e gives you two pools of experience--a normal pool that can be spent on anything, and a character type pool (e.g. Solar XP) that can be spent on most things, but explicitly not charms--maybe some other things, but I don't remember.

The design intent, at least, was to give you a pool you could spend on bolstering stats without feeling like you were suffering the opportunity cost of not buying charms.

ANYWAY. The amount of regular XP you've spent is what determines where your Essence is, or at least where it can get to. Training "times" for Essence are fuzzier now. Some ST's are fine with saying you have an instant epiphany, others may want your burgeoning spiritual power to take some time and token effort to achieve.

[Grod_the_giant]

Interesting. Which Traits do you purchase?

It doesn't matter, really--your essence steadily ticks up as the campaign continues and you accumulate experience. Everything else is purchased normally. You just don't have to pay to level up, so to speak.

[Heavy Arms]

I lacked the eloquence to communicate this properly in the initial post, but what I wanted (& failed) to communicate is the question of: are they speed bumps or does everything follow in this Charm progression for a reason I am missing.

In general, at least here, "speed bump" has a more specific meaning of a Charm that ceases to be useful once you buy the Charm(s) after it, or was never really useful at all. So they're speed bumps in the sense of they only exist to slow down your progression and once you're past them you never think about them ever again.

"Should this Charm be so deep in this tree," or "does the Tiger Warrior Training branch feel really bloated," are usually how people talk about this without getting into the practical value of any of the Charms in question and just focus on the number of them. Even if all the pre-errata Charms before TWT are good Charms (I'd argue they are at least decent), and even make sense as a progression (which again, I can see a case for), it's still possible that the resulting depth in the tree is too much. If the prerequisites are good enough, people will take them anyway (and IME 2e war leader focused Solars absolutely will), meaning it's safe to do what the errata did without really mucking up anything.

Does changing up the progression of Charms (say, starting with making Tigger Warriors before acquiring the other War Charms that were formally Tigger Warrior Training’ prerequisites) unbalance or alter the flow of Mass Combat progression?

Not really. If the only War Charms you start with are the post-errata Charms to get TWT, you really can't do much until you start gathering troops to follow you so you actually have people to train into Tiger Warriors anyway. What Backgrounds you select is probably going to be pretty important here, but unless you want your Tiger Warriors to end up following someone else, you need to make sure they're loyal to you. Maxing out the bonuses from TWT also takes a serious time commitment. You can turn a village of peaceful farmers into a decent militia in two weeks, but not a squad of elite soldiers any army would be jealous to have. Skipping out on a War Excellency and Rout-Stemming Gesture (and the other Charms building off it) means you're not bringing a lot of supernatural leadership to war with you, just super-fast training. It turns more into a "bought Melee Charms but uses a mundane sword vs. didn't buy Melee Charms but as a daiklave," sort of situation; in the end everyone's going to look closer once more XP comes in and time passes.

Is anyone aware of any Mass Combat tutorials for 2nd Edition I could use to refamiliar myself with?

I know they were made, but it's been a very long time since I did 2e, and longer since I did 2e Mass Combat. I have no idea where they'd be now.