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Recoving things lost to the Wyld

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  • #31
    Also I am kind of of the opinion that when you have the supernatural power to declare truth, that actually should create unsettling questions about truths you think you're discovering and not declaring. Especially when your truth-declaring powers work best in the chaos beyond the world and you're trying to discover lost truths out in the chaos beyond the world. Like, dude. That seems like an inevitable tradeoff.

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    • #32
      ...I was about to say something about how introducing a fact is a purely out-of-character action but Prophet of Seventeen Cycles and God-King’s Shrike suddenly pulled up and asked me how I’m doing.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Sith_Happens View Post
        ...I was about to say something about how introducing a fact is a purely out-of-character action but Prophet of Seventeen Cycles and God-King’s Shrike suddenly pulled up and asked me how I’m doing.
        It's a Lore Charm thing, and it's really nifty, but it doesn't help unravel the ontological problems the Wyld presents.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Sith_Happens View Post
          ...I was about to say something about how introducing a fact is a purely out-of-character action but Prophet of Seventeen Cycles and God-King’s Shrike suddenly pulled up and asked me how I’m doing.
          Dogstar Ruminations is particularly apt.

          "My great knowledge has observed this thing which will happen. Totally didn't cause it. Totally."


          Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Stephen Lea Sheppard View Post
            If whatever you pull out of the Wyld is a bit off, does that mean they're fake, or are they just exhibiting the natural effects of having had experiences in the Wyld? If you're looking for a fantastic, legendary magical vase sculpted by a famous First Age sculptor that was lost in such-and-such Wyld incursion, and what you get out of the Wyld is a bit warped, is that because you made it wrong or was it warped by spending centuries in the Wyld? If you're too committed to finding the one that isn't warped, are you likely to reject the "real thing" and settle for something you create out of your conceptions instead? Or is refusing to settle for a warped copy and commitment to finding the original... an act of will on your part that can repair the vase to its original state, assuming that being lost to the Wyld means it becomes of the Wyld and becomes subject to the process of Wyld shaping?
            At this point, though, we have the makings of an objectivity test baked into our premise, ala "recovering". Essentially a variant of a teleporter problem.

            Two Solars, working independently on opposite sides of Creation with no knowledge of each other a week apart, both try to recover the same unique, legendary vase.

            If the process recovers "the" vase, then the second Solar will get a 404 - file not found. The second Solar won't necessarily know why her efforts failed, but the Hypothetical Omniscient Perceiver does - objectively, the vase has already been recovered, so it has been made *unrecoverable* by definition.

            If, on the other hand, both Solars get vases, then at least one got a "fake", and lacking any reason to prefer one reference frame over the other, we have to conclude that they're *both* fakes, or at least that the definition of "fake" must be subjective (and/or meaningless).
            Last edited by Blackwell; 02-03-2021, 06:44 AM.

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            • #36
              Couldn't we just get two copies of the vase? Like the Lasting Damage I and II.

              Kirk steps into the transporter and arrives in two different places - why can't both Kirk's be "real"? Maybe a good version and an evil version in true transporter paradox fashion, but why not two identical duplicates - exactly the same in every way?

              (I mean, that's kinda the point of Thomas Riker.)

              Two Solars, working independently on opposite sides of Creation try to recover a vase. The Solar PC in your game who doesn't know about the other Solar recovers a vase. The Hypothetical Omniscient Perceiver (i.e. the ST) might know if the other Solar 404'd, or got a vase, or if both the vases are fake, or if both the vases are real, but the Solar PC who recovered that vase does not have that information.

              And given the flow of time in the Wyld, isn't it possible that a vase might be lost, recovered, lost again, then recovered again? And not, neccessarily, in that order.


              Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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              • #37
                I mean, things that are Lost to The Wyld aren't obliterated. This isn't the Maw of Oblivion. They are changed over and over again until they no longer resemble the mundane matter they once were, but there's a chain of causation between what they were and what they are now. It's just impossibly long and convoluted and bizarre.

                I would think the main thing about recovering something lost to the Wyld would be finding what it has Become. Be it a hobgoblin, or a part of the shine in a Behemoth's eternal mane, or a combination of 138 places/objects/feelings.

                You can use WST to remake the vase but to say it was the same vase would require you to find its component parts, the relevant charms would be Investigation. Likely branching off Evidence-Discerning Method or its upgrade.

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                • #38
                  Personally I deliberately refrained from answering “You’re looking for Order-Affirming Blow” to see where the thread would go if I didn’t but I guess we’ve finally arrived there regardless.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Sith_Happens View Post
                    Personally I deliberately refrained from answering “You’re looking for Order-Affirming Blow” to see where the thread would go if I didn’t but I guess we’ve finally arrived there regardless.
                    Wait no I take it back.
                    Undo!

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Sith_Happens View Post
                      Personally I deliberately refrained from answering “You’re looking for Order-Affirming Blow” to see where the thread would go if I didn’t but I guess we’ve finally arrived there regardless.
                      Depends how lost the thing is. But, sure, why not?

                      Mortals slap people to their senses. Solars punch the Wyld off.

                      ****

                      I don't like the idea of causal do-overs in Creation. But the point of the Wyld is that it's a roiling, alien, sea of possibilities and myth where the rigid laws of Creation break down.

                      I don't have a problem with punching a scarecrow to turn him back into the missing prince from the neighbouring kingdom in the Wyld.

                      If your Lore Supernal or Essence 3 Solar starts in Creation, I still think you should need to go on some sort of epic quest to find the scarecrow/prince first. (Possibly invovling Evidence-Discerning Method and the like to track down the missing prince, or the pieces of the missing prince Isis-style. Possibly an unrelated love story about an interdimensional wizard who eats hearts and the lost prince is only incidental.) I don't think "I spend 15m touching this random piece of wood I thought was a walking stick and magically recover the lost prince" is a satisfying story. But ending the quest with Order Affirming Blow is on-point.

                      Solars should be able to recover things lost to the Wyld.

                      (Non-Solars might need a Working, or a rare artifact, or the aid of a powerful patron, or other, specialised, magics instead of one Lore Charm with no prerequisites. But they should still be able to recover things.)

                      (And I don't think you can touch a "Lost Kingdom" and restore the whole thing with Order Affirming Blow. But the fact that OAB requires that you have the Wyld twisted thing in order to touch it is enough of a restriction for me -- as the Wyld is basically infinite.)
                      Last edited by JohnDoe244; 02-04-2021, 04:11 AM.


                      Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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                      • #41
                        For the Order-Affirming blow to work, it's still required for the person/object to be restored to be whole (even if changed). Moreover, the charm doesn't state what happens if it gets used on objects that are created from wyld in imitation of something creation-based. So, again, we get back to two things:

                        First, the thing we want restored may be one that was lost in Wyld, but cannot be really lost to Wyld. The parts of Creation (be it land, objects or people) that were dissolved into the Wyld during Balorian crusade might be recreated, but they cannot be restored. They are truly gone.

                        Second, considering the nature of the Wyld, it may still be really hard to differentiate between finding a thing that was lost there, and having the wyld create for you the thing you look for.
                        Stuff like two different Solars looking for a certain unique object within the Wyld, and both obtaining one (with both being certain that their find is the real one), should still be something that can happen.

                        There may be some special cases where getting a duplicate should be far less possible, (like looking for an object/person/location that is protected from Wyld in some way) and some methods to minimize the possibility of our desire to find something influencing our results (i.e. by not having the search and identification process being done by the same person), but the certainty should almost never reach 100%.



                        The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

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                        • #42
                          Also Order-Affirming Blow forces a Raksha into a form based on their Intimacies to a Solar. Which could be... interesting.


                          Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by vampire hunter D View Post
                            so if I wanted to recover SOULS but not the persons attached to them what would that entail?

                            I Will bring the Dragon Kings and other dead races back and You WILL NOT stop me!
                            I have been quite curious about this goal, myself.

                            Every time I thought of the Dragon-Kings lost in the Wyld, I've wanted to know if their was a way to salvage their immortal souls & bring them back into Creation.

                            ****

                            Of course, I'm also highly interested in reconstituting souls lost to Oblivion. Such is my ambition.

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