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  • Wyld-Shaping 2e vs 3e

    I've been thinking a bit about the setting implications of the changes in Wyld-Shaping. It seems like things are just real now in 3e, no need to figure out a way to get souls into your people, no need for the order-conferring trade pattern. Why the change? What impact does this have on the setting?

    I'm hoping to put together a Wyld-Shaping-centric game soon, but I'd sitll like my players to interact with the setting. Requiring trade (or some kind of relationships) with "real" places seems like a good way to get them to do that. I'm not as sure about the souls bit, maybe it's a way to get PCs to go to Yu-Shan & get involved with heavenly intrigues.

    What changes if interaction with Creation remains necessary? (I'm less concerned with luring the PCs to Yu-Shan with a petition for souls, I already have plans to lure them to Yu-Shan with other skullduggery.)

  • #2
    Wyld-Shaping is a lot, lot, lot harder in 3e (there was a whole thread [ http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...aping-it-seems ] about it). If you want it to be done often, probably some sort of addressing to the issues of WST in 3e would be nice, but if you're running it as is, tacking on yet another limitation to its use would feel kinda unfair, probably.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Katamari_Naneke View Post
      no need to figure out a way to get souls into your people
      Not quite; Wyld-shaped people always had souls, they just didn't reincarnate by default.

      Originally posted by Katamari_Naneke
      Why the change?
      I honestly think it could come down to something as simple as the Charm already being very wordy and intricate, the additional complications might have been judged to be an unnecessary allocation of wordcount at least.

      Originally posted by Katamari_Naneke
      What impact does this have on the setting?
      Probably not much, in the end. I'm sure it's still a conceit of the setting that patterned forms of trade and other social interaction are a source of stability that wards off the Wyld, and the significance of that for Wyld-shaped land can be as straightforward as them really benefiting from it when they're on the frontier. That can still be a thing of significance if one wishes to shape up a populated landscape totally isolated from the world, that the price of such is either being quite vulnerable to incursions of chaos or needing to live in a particularly demanding manner to make up the deficit.

      Originally posted by Katamari_Naneke
      I'm hoping to put together a Wyld-Shaping-centric game soon, but I'd sitll like my players to interact with the setting.
      Do you know that they would be inclined not to without the incentive?

      Besides, there's a question of the quality of the land that they shape, whether it necessarily has all of the resources that the characters and other inhabitants require. Continuous Wyld-shaping to meet those needs might not be practical, not with the demands of the Charm in Essence and experience points. Large amounts of land in one go might be self-sufficient, but I think it's reasonable to let that then have a story of large borders difficult to defend while perhaps lacking established systems (if not infrastructure) to adequately defend it.

      Otherwise, I think it's reasonable enough to simply state the desired premise that maintaining the stability of the land requires the development of relationships with the wider world.

      Still, I think it would also be a good idea to feel out the intentions of the players and to not write off a more isolated game altogether. I think there are unique and intriguing possibilities to making the Wyld-shaped world its own complicated ecosystem that is in all ways new territory to explore for the characters in question, the typical adventures of Exalted with an added focus of the uncanny and the esoteric and the responsibilities of humans who would set themselves up as divinities. Like, if they create large amounts of land along the easiest course, you can end up with something functionally equivalent to a major region of Creation, with varied and dispersed people who need to form relationships with one another for their ultimate survival. Even if their creation is more fine-tuned, the text of the Charm does not state that the Solar has total say in how the people turn out, and there's the option to create a population with a complicated perspective on their creator from the outset.

      Still, there's always the matter of how neighbours might come to you, whether they're necessary or not. If neighbouring Creation had people living in it, this new land and its people are not going to be totally disregarded, they can still make overtures of friendship, trade, colonisation or war as is suitable. The Guild is a good device for that kind of thing, some enterprising merchant prince looking to find what can be exploited in a new market. Wayward gods might be drawn by the opportunities to establish themselves as something more culturally prominent or offer their services in managing the new domain.

      Even the Fair Folk can have nuanced responses to such an event. A love-hate response to such an appearance in how it is both an intrusion upon their repose while also being a compelling new source of stimulation and sustenance, a new set of games to define and play. Not all of that is hostility, there's a potential for exchange and beguilement. I think there should be raksha capable of offering friendship that is sincere enough from their own perspective, if still a bit perilous. And then there's the portrayal of any that would approach cautiously when there are Solars already in residence.


      I have approximate knowledge of many things.
      Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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      • #4
        Yeah, the Fair Folk will definitely take an interest. But I'm hoping to make this as much a Dreaming Sea game as a Deep Wyld game.

        Altasaire - I had wondered about the prohibitive cost of Wyld-Shaping Technique. I was planning to houserule it, but I hadn't worked out the specifics. There might be some ideas in that thread but wowee that got long. People have FEELINGS about WST, I see.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Katamari_Naneke View Post
          Yeah, the Fair Folk will definitely take an interest. But I'm hoping to make this as much a Dreaming Sea game as a Deep Wyld game.
          The Dreaming Sea might be the most densely populated and cosmopolitan part of the world with relatively close proximity to the Wyld. I think people there taking an interest in newly shaped land writes itself.

          If nothing else, there are Solars there, the kind of thing that plausibly draws petitioners. Even if they're not recognised as such, they're people who can shape things from the Wyld.

          The land might be self-sufficient, but there can still be incentives for trade. Commodities can increase a surplus, making them more accessible. Manufactured goods can be valued for their aesthetic distinctions and the general value of foreign goods (which are valued for reasons somewhere between "people are drawn to the novelty" and "people like the prestige of acquiring pretty things from faraway places through trade or tribute").

          The Dreaming Sea is rich in trade. Do you want your Wyld-shaped people to adorn their homes with the finest rugs of Prasad?


          I have approximate knowledge of many things.
          Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Katamari_Naneke View Post
            no need to figure out a way to get souls into your people, no need for the order-conferring trade pattern.
            I haven’t had a chance to post in my original thread about it, yet, but I do believe I was incorrect in my reading of Wyld Couldron Technology (WST’s upgrade Charm).

            I do believe it does make the souls able to last past one life, but both Charms could have been clearer about it.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Katamari_Naneke View Post
              Why the change?
              I suspect they tried to find if anyone had told a story about someone made by Wyld Shaping Technique seeking out the additional magic necessary to become a fully realised person and internet searches only found discussion threads with a lot of navel gazing about soulless people and p-zombies.


              Onyx Path Forum Moderator
              Please spare a thought for updating the Exalted wiki.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Lioness View Post
                I suspect they tried to find if anyone had told a story about someone made by Wyld Shaping Technique seeking out the additional magic necessary to become a fully realised person and internet searches only found discussion threads with a lot of navel gazing about soulless people and p-zombies.

                That sounds like it's a case in which it's best to remove the language because a large number of people misread it as meaning that it does not create fully realised people.

                On a related note, I feel as though the matter of needing to petition Heaven to include a large number of people in the cycle of reincarnation is more of an impediment than a boon in a game that is going to be concentrated in a newly Wyld-shaped region, a sense of obligation to go far away and possibly jump through a few hoops just to feel functional in a story that seems like it already has plenty of concerns.

                If needing to negotiate with Yu-Shan is something that the players are enthusiastic about, then there are plenty of things that could be put on the table for them to pursue, everything from this being a brand new area (and culture(s)) for the gods to administer and make assignments for all the way up to wanting to clearly establish what indeed is the status of their reincarnation. That's something that can go beyond making sure it happens and into having one's own agendas about how it happens. It's plausible enough as an innate interest for people playing God in this manner, and the Solar Exalted can possess a prerogative to establish a procedure for it in the Celestial Order.


                I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post


                  That sounds like it's a case in which it's best to remove the language because a large number of people misread it as meaning that it does not create fully realised people.

                  On a related note, I feel as though the matter of needing to petition Heaven to include a large number of people in the cycle of reincarnation is more of an impediment than a boon in a game that is going to be concentrated in a newly Wyld-shaped region, a sense of obligation to go far away and possibly jump through a few hoops just to feel functional in a story that seems like it already has plenty of concerns.

                  If needing to negotiate with Yu-Shan is something that the players are enthusiastic about, then there are plenty of things that could be put on the table for them to pursue, everything from this being a brand new area (and culture(s)) for the gods to administer and make assignments for all the way up to wanting to clearly establish what indeed is the status of their reincarnation. That's something that can go beyond making sure it happens and into having one's own agendas about how it happens. It's plausible enough as an innate interest for people playing God in this manner, and the Solar Exalted can possess a prerogative to establish a procedure for it in the Celestial Order.
                  It'd just be easier to use those people to worship the god you want to speed up the process. A little prayer bribery always does the trick unless it's an incarnae who get so much out of worship it doesn't matter to them.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post
                    It'd just be easier to use those people to worship the god you want to speed up the process. A little prayer bribery always does the trick unless it's an incarnae who get so much out of worship it doesn't matter to them.
                    Easier than what?

                    Offering stuff up prior to negotiations seems like that stock comedic scene where a person offers a bribe too early to somebody who just walks with it and plays ignorant.


                    I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                    Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                      Easier than what?

                      Offering stuff up prior to negotiations seems like that stock comedic scene where a person offers a bribe too early to somebody who just walks with it and plays ignorant.
                      Just a prayer. You can also threaten to get rid of the prayer flow. It's not like just one day of prayer is enough.

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                      • #12
                        But they'll be no worse off than they were before you were praying to them. I don't think prayer is like crack, addictive enough that giving the first taste away for free gets people hooked into paying exorbitant prices for it.

                        Besides, whatever one day of prayer is not enough for, if it's insignificant then it hardly seems like it will be enticing. Phrase it as something to catch attention and open a dialogue sure, but just worshipping gods without establishing what the working relationship is going to be seems irresponsible.

                        Also, offering threats is a form of negotiation anyway.


                        I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                        Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                          That sounds like it's a case in which it's best to remove the language because a large number of people misread it as meaning that it does not create fully realised people.
                          Well, Hero-Induction Method does set a quite different tone with the name alone.

                          Additionally, the notion of creating hollow soulless people who’ll collapse back into the wyld if you forget about them for long enough is much more in line with what you’d expect from the Infernal equivalent Constructive Convergence of Principles.


                          Onyx Path Forum Moderator
                          Please spare a thought for updating the Exalted wiki.

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                          • #14
                            Ideas for Involving Yu-Shan to the Land Expansion

                            - Carrot Method: WST is expensive, as you said. But with a 'Grant for Creation Expansion', doled out in a specific and next-to-forgotten department of the Bureau of Nature, in Yu-Shan, you can get a 10m discount on every activation of the Wyld Shape Technique, as creations' essence buffers the effect. Expect to be involved in politics and bargaining before you get it, and even more so after, as the solars will be loaded with requests to remove wyld zones from regions important to other celestial gods.

                            - Stick Method: The region that the players formed was part of Creation before, and contained the land, even now having the base shape of it (echoes of the past). This land had a god that manage to escape to heaven during the contagion, lost everything, and is now a crime lord in yu-shan's underworld. In his head, it's his land, and he wants it back dearly. After a nasty letter telling to give him exclusive access to the worshippers on the island 'or else', increasingly nasty accidents start to happen on the island. Investigators from Yu-shan ask for the Solars to help in the investigations, dealing with the high and low in Yu-Shan.

                            - Court Case: This region of the wyld was granted formally by a bureau of yu-shan to a Fair Folk Court very long ago, in a very questionable move. The Fair Folk Lord of the Court, who is a friend of some very suspicious celestial gods, entered an injunction with a Celestial Dragon against the Wyld Cauldron Operation. The injunction says that the Exalted gained rights over Creation, not the wyld, the Fair Folk are FROM the Wyld, they have the rights for the land, and they have the dully legal contracts signed by Yu-Shan to prove it! The trial of the century is going to start!

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