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  • Almost makes me think there should be two separate books.

    The actual corebook would reward players who want to build low and wide, with the ability to engage with most challenges but not to overwhelm those challenges, so the corebook's bestiary can be filled with actual challenges. Few Charms would have Ability minimums higher than 3, and if there are any Artifact weapons, they also wouldn't rated higher than 3.

    The supplement to the corebook (Miracles of the Solar Exalted) would contain the vast majority of Charms with Ability minimums of 4 and higher, and Artifacts rated 4 and higher.


    formerly Tornado Wolf, formerly Inugami

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    • Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
      Okay this is the crux of the whole thread. The enemies don’t work because they’re not calibrated around the idea that every PC was a mortal of legendary combat skill in addition to everything else they were even prior to their Solar exaltation.
      I mean, for me, it feels like this is the "crux" of the thread in that you keep misrepresenting opinions because you want this to be the opposing position even though it isn't.

      I don't want bandits calibrated to be threats to the top of the top mortal potential of the game. But I do what them to be calibrated to the math of combat so what kind of threat the books say they are is how they actually play. A bandit doesn't need to be calibrated to a 5/5 PC, because a bandit isn't supposed to be a significant threat to one. A Bride of Ahlat, on the other hand, should be calibrated to 5/5 PCs because she's supposed to make one sweat if they try to beat her without magic.

      It's not "enemies don't work because they're not calibrated to 5/5 PCs." It's, "enemies don't work because they're not calibrated to the math of the system." This is an important distinction, and dismissing it, constantly, by insisting that it isn't isn't going to help you figure out how to actually handle char-gen besides, "everyone try not to break the system no matter how tempting it is because it tell you to."

      And this has nothing to do with why non-Dawns make characters with good combat stats. People do that because the game tells them to, constantly. The original signature circle? All encouraged you to make significant combat investments (Panther was an extremely successful pit-fighter before Exalted, Jade a highly skilled assassin, Swan a master of martial arts, with Arianna behind by only being ok with stabbing people but the also the groups battle-mage). The new ones might have toned it back a bit, but Nova and Diamond are still screaming, "hey, just because you didn't make a Dawn doesn't mean you couldn't kick ass too!" You're encouraged to take 5s in stuff you character is good at directly by the text. The BP/XP divide rewards you for starting with 5s in as many things as you can that you intend your character to be good at. Charm prereqs further push you to get to 5s ASAP. Combat is also one of the few areas where there's a justified perception that being bad at it risks the groups overall performance because everyone fights, where most other challenges are handled by the expert in them.

      Trying to pawn this off on the QCs not being calibrated isn't getting us anywhere because it's not a good faith argument.
      Last edited by Heavy Arms; 03-04-2021, 02:21 PM.

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      • Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
        The math is more complicated, but there's still a guide there, and I would expect that the various antagonist supplements having orders of magnitude, literally, more entries that are much weaker than the big ones would encourage you to not only run the big guys.
        Yup, and I can tweak them however I want.

        Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
        Even still, maybe you do that and go online and somebody says "wait, your ran Alhat as the first encounter of your campaign? Were your PCs starting at Essence 3 or...? Okay yep, that's the problem. Ahlat is not something you fight on your second day as a Solar"
        Yea I really wish the book would tell you that. As I’ve seen several people fly into this face first into a roller coaster. You’re told that you’re the second reincarnation of a god king with powers to make the world tremble, but you can bodied almost immediately by some things in the setting.

        Personally I don’t find this a problem. Hell, I’ve seen parties that can take on Alhat at Essence 1. My issue isn’t with those people, as if they can pull that off then they already have system mastery (and before you say that isn’t the intention of the game, wait until a later point where I address this). Rather it’s the new people who have no idea what they’re getting into and get body slammed by antagonists that have a huge power spike out of nowhere. All of those ghosts enemies you showed? Oh they were spooky. Those Abyssals the book gave you? Those right-hand men of that nasty Deathlord are now gone. Nothing’s going to stop you!

        Then they get to the Deathlord and get destroyed so horrifically that the fight would need to be posted on a masochism story website.

        Let’s assume for a fact that Deathlord’s are statted like Viator and not the abominations they were in 2e/1e. At no time did the book tell you that you must be this high to fight them. “A very dangerous foe that requires the strength of an entire circle” doesn’t even come close. It’s more like “You need to be 5/5 with artifacts and at minimum a dozen combat charms at Essence 4/5. Try this with anything else and you’re going to be in for bad time.”

        If a DM throws an adult red dragon at level 5 characters, you laugh at them for not following the rules for combat design in the book.

        If a GM TPK’s a party with a level appropriate encounter with an adult red dragon? Perhaps the party was really undergeared, maybe they had bad luck, maybe the wizard blew their buff spells on the kobold fight beforehand, maybe the party was really badly designed to fight solo opponents such as this, whatever the case.

        What Exalted does is throw players and ST’s into the a high performance sports car with no preparation or foresight. The most the book tells you is where the gas is, but doesn’t warn people how to avoid driving off cliffs. I have seen this happen many times. A lot of ST’s don’t come specifically because there is no robust support in making encounters.




        Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
        If the 5/5 is spending no resources to hit, then the 3/3 is spending resources and also hitting, it can't be both ways. The 5/5 starts with 11 dice, and the 3/3 boosts up to 12 dice, there can not be a gap where the 5/5 is hitting without effort and the 3/3 is finding it impossible to hit. The range where that happens is 5-6, which is where enemies pretty much top out. There's a couple with 7s that the 3/3 PCs will find somewhat difficult to hit, only a 40% chance with a decisive attack, although withering will be better. You need to get to defenses in the range of 9+ before the 5/5 is spending resources to hit, and the 3/3 can no longer spend resources to reliably hit.
        The 3/3 can go up to 12 dice, the 5/5 can go up to 20. A 3/3 has a 50% chance of hitting something with 6 defense. The 5/5 can spend the same amount of resources and get a dramatically higher chance of hitting the opponent. Likewise the 3/3 has very little room for leeway. And additional defence or penalties beyond that makes their odds go down the shitter with little resource to solve it. If the enemy has 7 defence then it’s a little more painful. If the enemy has 8 defence (ala mount or cover) then forget it. If the enemy has some sort of onslaught negation (such as an exalt), then that is rubbing acid in the wound. The chances of someone with 12 dice hitting 8 successes is 25%. Those are not good odds for something that calls itself a god king simulator. At this point I’d rather just play Russian Roulette with the enemy instead.

        The 5/5’er has far more leeway for these variations.


        Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
        Again, all of this completely apart from things like a player hitting the enemy with poison, giving them a -4 poison penalty, players stacking onslaught, prone penalties, mobility penalties, and on and on.
        All of these things are nice, but can be countered trivially. If you are relying on such things to make your build viable, you’re only inviting disaster in the future. When the ST makes something that counters this trick then it’s like setting up a Paladin falls moment. You’re hero of the realm until the chair is kicked from under you then stabbed with pitchforks. Assuming the noose doesn’t get you first.

        Hell I can even flip this around. Any of these happen to a 3/3? They’re basically fucked. If this happens to the 5/5? It’s annoying, but they may be able to compensate.

        Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
        I still disagree, the combat system is full of a ton of stacked fail-safes to stop your character from dying.
        And I think between some very dangerous charms and abominations like falling damage there’s still enough to put a player so hard in the balls that the bones can be vaporized to powder. Neither of us will be convinced otherwise it seems, so let’s move on.


        Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
        It can definitely be difficult to guague how powerful certain enemies are, but I can tell you that if the design assumption was that players take 5/5, then the game is loaded with pathetically weak ones. They're not usable if the players all maximize their stats like that. More importantly, how is it a better solution to say that the ST should just come up with everything themselves? If it's hard to gauge how powerful printed enemies are, it's got to be at least twice as hard to come up with appropriate enemies yourself.

        At the very least, if that was what they were doing, they should have just cut the entire antagonist section completely, and probably the sections detailing what each ability dot relates to. Also ditch any suggestions as to what difficulties things should be. What they have printed is worse than nothing, it's actually hurting the game balance, because it's making things seem like 14 dice is a deadly attack pool, when it isn't. So I still have to make up everything myself, except then I have to try and justify why the mooks they're facing have Octavian's statline.
        I’ve been over this. It’s lost somewhere in the previous pages and probably across multiple posts, so I’ll summarize it.

        Enemies are statted for Timmy ST’s and/or players. Players who are more experienced and invested in the game can easily tailor things or steal parts from enemies in order to make a Frankenstein that can be an entertaining encounter for their players. Occasionally we get the “Fuck you” opponents published that stomp Timmy’s into red paste and leave the experienced players having to have a “3/3ers and 5/5ers, and how to live with it, find ways around it or learn percentages” talk with the Timmy’s, a tradition as time honored as the birds and the bees talk.


        Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
        Well I don't find a game where 90% of the published antagonists are not usable except as a kind of abstract or background detail to the point where they might as well not even list their abilities to be working well. I want to use them, and I can't, I have to come up with it all on my own. I don't have to do this in DnD, or ST:A, or Rogue Trader, or Edge of the Empire, I can't think of any RPG I've played or ran like that, and I definitely don't mean that in a good way.

        I have no idea why it must be this way. Why MUST it not work? The worst part being that it absolutely does work with characters built that way, it's the that instead of the rules saying characters should be built that way, it's on me to glare at my player and say: (spoilered for length)

        "So uh...notice you didn't mention swordsmanship in your 3 page long background document you sent me."

        "Yeah?"

        "Notice you also have Dex 5, Melee 5, specialty in daiklaves."

        "Yeah?"

        "You understand what those stats mean right? That your guy, even without his Solar exaltation, is a swordmaster beyond all swordmasters?"

        "Maybe he practices a lot."

        "This would be in the hour of free time that he has after digging up some occult research in the library, slaving away creating his army of clockwork men, and writing legendarily eloquent poems?"

        "Maybe he has...4?"

        "You further understand that if you're too badass all I'm going to do is skip fights right? Like I won't call for join battle, we'll just skip to the end with you winning and gloss over all the action so we can get to the next social scene or travel montage."

        "T-three?"

        "Hmmmm."

        "Two?"

        "Yeah, as good as a professional swordsman. Sounds pretty good to me."


        I don't want to have to do that to make the game run properly. I shouldn't have to do that to make the game run properly. I also shouldn't have to homebrew every encounter completely from scratch, and then have this happen:


        "Okay, hobgoblin coming at you with 16 dice withering, what are you doing?"

        "Whoa, what? 16? This is a hobgoblin right?"

        "It's a special one, now are you boosting your defense or what?"

        "That's a pretty damn special hobgoblin."

        "Yeah the sorcerer you're facing gave it a boost. Your defense right now is sitting at 7, and you can boost it up to 12 before stunts if you want, are you going to stunt?"

        "She boosted a hobgoblin to have a better base attack pool than Octavian."

        "Oh no, she boosted ALL her hobgoblins to have a better attack pool than octavian. She's a boss like that. They also have a bunch of abilities to make reflexive attacks and ignore onslaught penalties and stuff."

        "What? What's SHE like?"

        "She's Ma-Ha-Suchi's fighting power combined with Raksi's sorcery, but with more health levels than both of them combined and they're all -0s."

        "That's insane!"

        "These are challenges appropriate to the group. I think, I don't know I just came up with them myself."


        I've been running mortals games for the past few weeks and they've been going great using the printed antagonists. They've been kicking the ass of dragonblooded, fey creatures, demons, all sorts of things. They don't have charms! They don't even have an excellency, they're just doing perfectly fine with their base pools, and nobody is having any issues with the fighty stuff. They're not dropping like flies, they're not flipping the table in frustration because they spent the last three rounds missing, because they aren't missing. They're winning, although on rare occasions they might take some actual damage.
        You’re right in other games don’t have that problem, but that’s because each game has their own unique problems. I had a friend who knew Rogue Trader as well as I know Exalted, and he could go on for hours on how broken autofire was and how it utterly destroyed combat (Please don’t specifically go into that example, I don’t know Rogue Trader anymore but it’s just an example of different problems systems have). Now I can’t speak for all the ones you mentioned there, but the ones I played? DnD, M&M, and 2d20 systems? All those have guidelines on how to challenge the PC’s. DnD 4e and M&M have near bulletproof encounter design aside from maybe a few outliers. 2d20 is a bit looser but at least it is a good guideline metric.

        Exalted? It has fuckall. Why? Because of the variability in stats. Those three systems have some good assurances to make sure players would be competent in a battle regardless of those levels. Exalted has none. WoD (all versions) have the same problem. It is due to the structure of the game itself that planning exact encounter difficulty is fundamentally impossible. The closest it ever got in my experience was unironically Scion 1e, because if things had the same epic attributes then yea chances are it would be an equal battle. That is why it doesn’t work.

        My character has 5 dots with Archery despite having a background as a farmer and a caste of Zenith. Why? Because I shot things that tried to come near my farm, and I became good at it to where I could snipe sparrows. That’s my justification of why I can shoot really well.

        The story of how you need to adjust encounters is extreme hyperbole and you know it. Not all enemies in the game need to be individually overblown to that extreme, even Chung would ask what the hell you’re going on about. I gave multiple reasons of how and why some creatures could have reasonably boosted stats. But that doesn’t mean you need to throw the baby out with the bathwater then toss the tub out after. Likewise some people want to start the game and play out something akin to the cutscenes in Devil May Cry. Those creepy ghostfishers, scary black hole monsters, and powerful blood apes? My enjoyment is that I break those things over my knee for breakfast. Think about the first van cinema with Nero in DMC5 vs the preceding cutscene from after. One is making those scary bug demons into an absolute joke, the other cutscene shows just how dangerous those things are to non-demon hunters.

        I know that Exalted having no real way to balance encounters beyond “git gud” is a fairly bitter red pill to swallow. The only solution to this is arming people with knowledge and letting them make their own choices after that.

        And as for the mortal games, good for you. I’ve been over why I wouldn’t enjoy such a thing myself.

        Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
        Why does Exalted stop working this well when the characters are Exalted?

        Working as intended for me and others I know. Your problems with this are not my own.

        Originally posted by Gayo View Post
        One last thing, about the Octavian white-rooming: Elenian is correct that, while assuming a roll scores EV is OK for eyeballing a single interaction, it is not a suitable way to test a fight unless every roll has a small impact on the outcome, which is seldom the case. It's analogous to white-rooming a single roll by saying "the average d10 result is a 5.5, which is a failure, so I'll assume these ten dice are all failures." When you iterate many rolls each of which can have a significant impact, you get the same dynamic at a higher level. Assuming all rolls do EV doesn't just fail to tell you that a fight has a 30% chance of TPK, it may fail to tell you that there's a 90% chance. This is particularly an issue with enemies like Octavian, who have stuff that just completely obliterates people on a good roll.
        Luck may go in either direction, but if I find if I remove outliers and go with the base standard then it is something I can use as my lighthouse. Again, it is how I balanced fights for over a decade in the system and it worked every time. If it is working for me and it’s worked for others, I ain’t changing it.

        Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post

        I mean, for me, it feels like this is the "crux" of the thread in that you keep misrepresenting opinions because you want this to be the opposing position even though it isn't.

        I don't want bandits calibrated to be threats to the top of the top mortal potential of the game. But I do what them to be calibrated to the math of combat so what kind of threat the books say they are is how they actually play. A bandit doesn't need to be calibrated to a 5/5 PC, because a bandit isn't supposed to be a significant threat to one. A Bride of Ahlat, on the other hand, should be calibrated to 5/5 PCs because she's supposed to make one sweat if they try to beat her without magic.

        It's not "enemies don't work because they're not calibrated to 5/5 PCs." It's, "enemies don't work because they're not calibrated to the math of the system." This is an important distinction, and dismissing it, constantly, by insisting that it isn't isn't going to help you figure out how to actually handle char-gen besides, "everyone try not to break the system no matter how tempting it is because it tell you to."

        And this has nothing to do with why non-Dawns make characters with good combat stats. People do that because the game tells them to, constantly. The original signature circle? All encouraged you to make significant combat investments (Panther was an extremely successful pit-fighter before Exalted, Jade a highly skilled assassin, Swan a master of martial arts, with Arianna behind by only being ok with stabbing people but the also the groups battle-mage). The new ones might have toned it back a bit, but Nova and Diamond are still screaming, "hey, just because you didn't make a Dawn doesn't mean you couldn't kick ass too!" You're encouraged to take 5s in stuff you character is good at directly by the text. The BP/XP divide rewards you for starting with 5s in as many things as you can that you intend your character to be good at. Charm prereqs further push you to get to 5s ASAP. Combat is also one of the few areas where there's a justified perception that being bad at it risks the groups overall performance because everyone fights, where most other challenges are handled by the expert in them.

        Trying to pawn this off on the QCs not being calibrated isn't getting us anywhere because it's not a good faith argument.
        Seconded.


        Read my shit at my homebrew topic, 2.5e and 3e material!
        Play Alchemical's in 3e now, you're welcome.

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        • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
          I mean, for me, it feels like this is the "crux" of the thread in that you keep misrepresenting opinions because you want this to be the opposing position even though it isn't.

          I don't want bandits calibrated to be threats to the top of the top mortal potential of the game. But I do what them to be calibrated to the math of combat so what kind of threat the books say they are is how they actually play. A bandit doesn't need to be calibrated to a 5/5 PC, because a bandit isn't supposed to be a significant threat to one. A Bride of Ahlat, on the other hand, should be calibrated to 5/5 PCs because she's supposed to make one sweat if they try to beat her without magic.
          Why should a Bride of Alhat be a better fighter than the greatest warrior in the world? Is every bride the absolute apex of mortal power? As they are now they appear to have 4 dex, 4 melee, 5 Dodge. That puts them at pretty epic levels of trained skill and natural ability, considering they’re members of the Royal guard.

          Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
          It's not "enemies don't work because they're not calibrated to 5/5 PCs." It's, "enemies don't work because they're not calibrated to the math of the system." This is an important distinction, and dismissing it, constantly, by insisting that it isn't isn't going to help you figure out how to actually handle char-gen besides, "everyone try not to break the system no matter how tempting it is because it tell you to."
          I don’t even understand what this means. Combat runs off attribute plus ability plus bonuses for weapons. Non combat runs off attribute plus ability plus bonuses from equipment. Where is the math different? Is it just light weapons? That’s the thing that’s unbalancing the whole math of combat? Because lots of this don’t have light weapons.

          Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
          And this has nothing to do with why non-Dawns make characters with good combat stats. People do that because the game tells them to, constantly. The original signature circle? All encouraged you to make significant combat investments (Panther was an extremely successful pit-fighter before Exalted, Jade a highly skilled assassin, Swan a master of martial arts, with Arianna behind by only being ok with stabbing people but the also the groups battle-mage). The new ones might have toned it back a bit, but Nova and Diamond are still screaming, "hey, just because you didn't make a Dawn doesn't mean you couldn't kick ass too!" You're encouraged to take 5s in stuff you character is good at directly by the text. The BP/XP divide rewards you for starting with 5s in as many things as you can that you intend your character to be good at. Charm prereqs further push you to get to 5s ASAP. Combat is also one of the few areas where there's a justified perception that being bad at it risks the groups overall performance because everyone fights, where most other challenges are handled by the expert in them.
          You can fight, and be a badass, without maxing out your combat stats. The example circle for THIS edition, the one we actually have stats for, has two characters with only 2-3 in those abilities. What about that says that the intended design is for characters to all have max fighting stats?

          Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
          Trying to pawn this off on the QCs not being calibrated isn't getting us anywhere because it's not a good faith argument.
          I take enormous offence to the accusation that I’m lying. I want you to apologize. Until you do I’m not going to further respond to your posts.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sandact6 View Post
            Yup, and I can tweak them however I want.



            Yea I really wish the book would tell you that. As I’ve seen several people fly into this face first into a roller coaster. You’re told that you’re the second reincarnation of a god king with powers to make the world tremble, but you can bodied almost immediately by some things in the setting.

            Personally I don’t find this a problem. Hell, I’ve seen parties that can take on Alhat at Essence 1. My issue isn’t with those people, as if they can pull that off then they already have system mastery (and before you say that isn’t the intention of the game, wait until a later point where I address this). Rather it’s the new people who have no idea what they’re getting into and get body slammed by antagonists that have a huge power spike out of nowhere. All of those ghosts enemies you showed? Oh they were spooky. Those Abyssals the book gave you? Those right-hand men of that nasty Deathlord are now gone. Nothing’s going to stop you!

            Then they get to the Deathlord and get destroyed so horrifically that the fight would need to be posted on a masochism story website.

            Let’s assume for a fact that Deathlord’s are statted like Viator and not the abominations they were in 2e/1e. At no time did the book tell you that you must be this high to fight them. “A very dangerous foe that requires the strength of an entire circle” doesn’t even come close. It’s more like “You need to be 5/5 with artifacts and at minimum a dozen combat charms at Essence 4/5. Try this with anything else and you’re going to be in for bad time.”

            If a DM throws an adult red dragon at level 5 characters, you laugh at them for not following the rules for combat design in the book.

            If a GM TPK’s a party with a level appropriate encounter with an adult red dragon? Perhaps the party was really undergeared, maybe they had bad luck, maybe the wizard blew their buff spells on the kobold fight beforehand, maybe the party was really badly designed to fight solo opponents such as this, whatever the case.

            What Exalted does is throw players and ST’s into the a high performance sports car with no preparation or foresight. The most the book tells you is where the gas is, but doesn’t warn people how to avoid driving off cliffs. I have seen this happen many times. A lot of ST’s don’t come specifically because there is no robust support in making encounters.
            Certainly that isn’t helping the problem.


            Originally posted by Sandact6 View Post
            The 3/3 can go up to 12 dice, the 5/5 can go up to 20. A 3/3 has a 50% chance of hitting something with 6 defense. The 5/5 can spend the same amount of resources and get a dramatically higher chance of hitting the opponent. Likewise the 3/3 has very little room for leeway. And additional defence or penalties beyond that makes their odds go down the shitter with little resource to solve it. If the enemy has 7 defence then it’s a little more painful. If the enemy has 8 defence (ala mount or cover) then forget it. If the enemy has some sort of onslaught negation (such as an exalt), then that is rubbing acid in the wound. The chances of someone with 12 dice hitting 8 successes is 25%. Those are not good odds for something that calls itself a god king simulator. At this point I’d rather just play Russian Roulette with the enemy instead.
            That sounds pretty okay to me. A 3/3 fighting most enemies who have defence 3-5 will be throwing between 12 and 16 dice, easily enough to go crazy. When something like a Fair Folk Cataphract shows up you could absolutely take that with just the group of 3/3s, but the Dawn could also solo it, and the combination of the two means that that fair folk Cataphract is going to need backup, which will be something like it’s medium infantry summon army, which the 3/3s can wreck with the expenditure of Essence.

            Whereas in those fights, if they want to, the dawn can flex and say, I don’t have a 80% chance of hitting this decisive attack, I have a 100% chance of hitting this decisive attack.




            Originally posted by Sandact6 View Post
            All of these things are nice, but can be countered trivially. If you are relying on such things to make your build viable, you’re only inviting disaster in the future. When the ST makes something that counters this trick then it’s like setting up a Paladin falls moment. You’re hero of the realm until the chair is kicked from under you then stabbed with pitchforks. Assuming the noose doesn’t get you first.
            Trivially how? You can’t just pick up a persistent onslaught penalty negator, or reflexive rise from prone ability, or immunity to poison. Some enemies have them, but even the ones that do you don’t instantly lose against, they’ve only got 5-6 defence, you’re still hitting.

            Originally posted by Sandact6 View Post
            Exalted? It has fuckall. Why? Because of the variability in stats. Those three systems have some good assurances to make sure players would be competent in a battle regardless of those levels. Exalted has none. WoD (all versions) have the same problem. It is due to the structure of the game itself that planning exact encounter difficulty is fundamentally impossible. The closest it ever got in my experience was unironically Scion 1e, because if things had the same epic attributes then yea chances are it would be an equal battle. That is why it doesn’t work.
            This is precisely why the problem is chargen. It has no guiderails to either ensure that PCs are fights enough to survive, or ensure that they aren’t SO fighty that the make antagonists obsolete.

            It goes for social stuff too, I just don’t see players doing it. If everyone automatically took Wits 5, Manip 5, Integrity 5 with a spec and Socialize 5 with a spec there would be a similar probalem with no social antagonists having a prayer to challenge the party.

            Originally posted by Sandact6 View Post
            The story of how you need to adjust encounters is extreme hyperbole and you know it. Not all enemies in the game need to be individually overblown to that extreme, even Chung would ask what the hell you’re going on about. I gave multiple reasons of how and why some creatures could have reasonably boosted stats. But that doesn’t mean you need to throw the baby out with the bathwater then toss the tub out after. Likewise some people want to start the game and play out something akin to the cutscenes in Devil May Cry. Those creepy ghostfishers, scary black hole monsters, and powerful blood apes? My enjoyment is that I break those things over my knee for breakfast. Think about the first van cinema with Nero in DMC5 vs the preceding cutscene from after. One is making those scary bug demons into an absolute joke, the other cutscene shows just how dangerous those things are to non-demon hunters.
            Perfect example of exactly what playing a Dawn should feel like. Nico is the character who can grab the broken talon of a demon, a box of scraps from the back of her van, and in less than ten minutes she has a new artifact devil breaker for Nero to use to kick ass. Nico does not also totally clown demons and make them look like fools with her combat prowess.


            Originally posted by Sandact6 View Post
            Working as intended for me and others I know. Your problems with this are not my own.
            Well it’s not not working well for me and several other people that I know at all. In a quick search I found one person complaining that players were too weak, in a party of mixed mortals and exalts and he was having trouble bridging the gap, and a half dozen posts saying hey couldn’t get enemies strong enough to handle their players.

            Most of the responses being “they’re supposed to rofl stomp enemies, just play out the consequences of their victories” which sucks for reasons I’ve detailed elsewhere.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post

              I mean, for me, it feels like this is the "crux" of the thread in that you keep misrepresenting opinions because you want this to be the opposing position even though it isn't.
              Then report it. Don't accuse the poster themselves.


              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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              • Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
                Why should a Bride of Alhat be a better fighter than the greatest warrior in the world?
                Please cite where I said "better than the greatest warrior in the world." I said that a Bride should be calibrated to make the greatest warrior in the world not using magic sweat. As in, "I might be better, but I need to be on my A game because a bad tactical choice or poor luck could mean I actually lose this one." And the Brides should be that because that's what they're there to be examples of. The Brides can't do that if they're 10s on a 1-12 scale are being transferred as 10s on a 1-16 scale.

                Combat runs off attribute plus ability plus bonuses for weapons. Non combat runs off attribute plus ability plus bonuses from equipment. Where is the math different?
                Pretty much the rest of the system (not including magic):

                Equipment is either permission to even roll at all, or at best a +1 bonus. The best blacksmith tools in the best smithy in Creation, is just a presumption of materials on hand, and a +1 to your Craft rolls. That's it, your done finding bonuses.

                Combat (again, not including magic):

                Equipment comes in multiple stat blocks with varying direct +/- adjustments to different dice pools that exceed 1 in potential value, layer on tags to create all sorts of additional variables, and you can stack different forms of equipment. You can pick a mix of weapons (light for attack, off-hand medium for +1 Defense, or dual-wield and try to clash everything), you layer on armor, and mounts, etc. Your band of heroes has rallied the local forces to fend off an attacking Imperial Legion and your side one the Strategic Warfare roll and use fortifications to slap penalties on the invading legion and slow them down so your long range attackers get more shots off before the legion can respond.

                How do you not see the difference here?

                You can fight, and be a badass, without maxing out your combat stats. The example circle for THIS edition, the one we actually have stats for, has two characters with only 2-3 in those abilities. What about that says that the intended design is for characters to all have max fighting stats?
                Cherry picking one part of a massive list of things that drives players to want to aim for 5/5 just drags the conversation down. The presentation of example characters says, "make characters that can fight." Yes, they don't need to be 5/5s (though maybe Exalted should have put the circle's stats in the core book as sample characters to try to be more clear about that), but they prime players to think that investing in combat is important, and then the rest of the stuff kicks in to drive them to want to invest more than is probably best for actually playing the game.

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                • I'm sorry to say I'm going to have to close this conversation. Tensions and accusations are flying. Many reports on it.

                  Thanks for participating.


                  Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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